It's very important to get a functional reverse babble on THIS issue I strongly believe because in my observation the logic is as follows.

My broken vows + your broken vows = we are not married so I am not having an affair. My relationship is legit.

My broken vows + your upheld vows = I am still bound.

So don't let that one slide.

Well, I will disagree slightly with everyone else.

You vowed to LOVE and CHERISH.

Meeting emotional needs is an act of LOVE and CHERISHING.

Is it a betrayal? I think so - not on the level of infidelity by ANY stretch of the imagination...nor is it a justification for adultery...but...

You met his needs before marriage, so he felt in love and married you with the understanding that you would continue to meet his needs.

When you stopped doing so, it hurt, it felt like a bait and switch, a betrayal.

STILL...not a justification for what he did...

But I would not simply dismiss his statement as fog. It is fog to claim that failure to meet needs justified his affair.

But it is NOT fog for him to describe his feeling of loss and abandonment when his emotional needs were not met as he had been led to believe.

Of course Sis, you had the same happen to you. Both of you contributed to the downfall of the marriage. BOTH of you failed to love and cherish.

That's why Dr Phil says "this relationship needs a hero" - someone has to step up, and make the CHOICE to love, even if you don't feel like it. All it takes is ONE person to start the ball rolling (which you are doing in Plan A).

By introducing LOVE ACTIONS you bring back LOVE FEELINGS which encourage more LOVE ACTIONS.

You'll get there, and alot of this just has to wait til recovery.

Get HNHNs, it will help a great deal.

Don't forget it's the person who gives LEAST to the Marriage that almost always becomes the Wayward in infidelity.

Betrayal is willfull cognitive treachery.

Failure to hit the mark with 100% accuracy is not in any way a betraying action imo.

I think people need to get a hold of their runaway terminologies especially when those terminologies allow us to justify and validate wicked behavior.

It may make your poor baby feelings happy to call every slight and every let down a betrayal but then what will you say when you are betrayed for REAL?

We don't compare a homicide with genocide for good reason.

.02

Yes, he did meet my needs once. Very well as a matter of fact. Thanks for the reminder. The last three years (when the A was going on) which were so filled with pain and distance and lies...sort of having me doing my own history re-write, I guess.

We had a whole discussion a couple of weeks back about this...which really opened my eyes...but we all concluded, I think, that it was much to premature to even keep it out on the table.

This is really just a bit of feeling sorry for myself...my taker tapping her fingers impatiently. I know the Plan A stuff is all for the good; not backing off...I just need to indulge that feeling for a bit. I'm placing my order for HNHN today. I will admit that I'm a little apprehensive about reading it, I think that whole issue of my "having failed him" will rear its ugly head.

I went to a workshop on the Five Love Languages...really enjoyed it. I should get that book. Interesting, though...I think my love language would be different now that it was then...I've made THAT MANY changes. Possible, or no?

TA: he didn't accuse me of "breaking my vows," I didn't "live up to them." And yes...we took the standard-issue Catholic church vows that most people take...

I also agree that his statement is very likely turd-oganda, with a generous helping of unrealistic expectations thrown in for good measure.

Not likely to be anymore discussion of vows for a while, anyway...better just let that one go off into la-la turd-land. Fog speak doesn't deserve an audience.

Thanks, everyone.

Not to suggest that a person COULDN'T betray their spouse.

Lies are willfully treacherous for example. A betrayal.

A spouse who is invested...who tries to love and cherish...who honors the vows they made...who is faithfull and true is NOT betraying by sometimes missing the boat...being ignorant....failing to perfectly execute every need...dot every I or cross every T.

But the fog does contribute, I think, in that since DAY 1 after discovery (actually before!!) , I have acknowledged that--and taken responsibility for--the fact that I was not a perfect mate, that I did things wrong, didn't meet his needs, etc.

The FOG ALLOWS HIM TO DISREGARD those statements and my apologies as insincere or "too late." I have acknowledged that I understand his feelings of loss and abandonment, and I am sorry for my behaviors that led to those feelings. He can't internalize that, though, because of the fog. Sound right?

So while I agree that his statements are telling in terms understanding his state of mind, the fact that he uses his (I'm using noodle's terms here) DISAPPOINTMENTS to justify and rationalize his BETRAYAL is....unfair? (what's the right word here...)

Again...I don't think the VOWS issue will come up again any time soon...and if it does I can gently ask him to please explain his "thinking" on that.

If it were me I'd go with the trojan horse.

I wouldn't call attention to it...just start to use clarity in MY terminology.

He's not stupid...the differences will resonate any time he allows them to.

Like in vulnerable secret self questioning moments.

Maybe one moment here...another a week later...just USING that distinction in everyday conversation creates a script...just like a WS uses a script.

You are choosing to read from YOUR beliefs not their wishes.

Fog also greatly amplifies the loss and failures in the marriage.

To listen to these accusation of betrayal you'd think he spent his time huddled in the fetal position despairing.

Realistically these needs were getting met..just not perfectly or in perfect alignment with his priority of needs.

He found someone willing to top a need off..fill the bank to overflow...make filling his needs the ONLY concern she had in life to the exclusion of all else.

He is living in hedonistic egomaniac excess and his assertions that his marriage failed to live up to the expectations created by his feelings during his affair are asinine.

That is like saying "coffee...you have failed to be crack...shame on you".

I'm concerned about some of your thinking, Sis...

I continue to be concerned about your growing anger at him...and therefore it may be time for PLAN B...

IMO, BRAMBLE ROSE is RIGHT ON..Please reread and soak in what she is telling you..she is SO WISE and SO CORRECT, IMO...

In reference to what you are saying above, HE DEFINITLELY WILL CONTINUE TO RATIONALIZE AND JUSTIFY UNTIL THE FOG IS COMPLETELY GONE..UNTIL AFTER WITHDRAWAL...WHICH LASTS 3 TO 6 MONTHS AFTER NO CONTACT FROM HER...THIS IS A LONG, LONG TIME FROM NOW...You will have to FACE this..you will not be able to HELP HIM UNDERSTAND or to TALK HIM OUT OF THE FOG...the FOG is REAL..he will have to come out of it ON HIS OWN...after he has SUFFERED and WITHDRAWN from her...



ACCEPT his THINKING ON THIS..try to LEARN what you can from this in PREPARATION for RECOVERY...

Don't ask him about EXPLAINING..he is FOGGY and liable to SAY ANYTHING...ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS for a WH..please remember this....

AS LG is telling you...YOUR JOB IS TO LISTEN...I repeat...YOUR JOB IS TO LISTEN..and to be THE FOLLOWER at this point..NOT THE LEADER...

AND...SCHOOLBUS is making an IMPORTANT POINT that makes RT APPEALING for your INSECURE HUSBAND...SHE LEFT A LAWYER TO BE WITH HIM..Psychologically, this is like a dream come true for him..if not consciously, then subconsciously...WOW!!

This makes your ADMIRATION and RESPECT of him as a MAN sooo IMPORTANT in order top carry on with WINNING THESE PLAN A BATTLES....

FIGHT YOUR SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS, SIS...If you are at all like me, it comes so naturally that I must FIGHT IT...

Actually, we didn't do the submitting one in our vows... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think he's going for the LOVE AND CHERISH thing as BR noted...

This came up at a time when posts were coming fast and furious, so I didn't get time to respond to that one. He does feel inferior to his brothers but would never admit it. He is incredibly dissatisfied with his career...again, no excuse...and we always agreed that we were "work to live" people, not "live to work" people.

Actually...right after d-day, I told him that I would GLADLY support a decision to leave the PD and pursue a new career that fulfilled him. I have long believed that his job was a source of great stress and general dissatisfaction in his life. Now, his leaving the PD is an even more realistic possibility since I have this new opportunity at work. I could support us financially...maybe we wouldn't be quite as comfortable...but who cares!! You can't buy happiness...

Are you implying here that WH may feel more "manly" because RT left someone with a "higher-order" career for him? Just trying to clarify....

Because if that was one of WH's motivations, he fell short of the mark IMO. RT's XH is an attorney...a real estate attorney...who is almost an annoyingly nice guy who backs down at everything and looks like a typical nerd. (sorry...I know that sounds awful...just trying to give you a picture...)

Perhaps THAT speaks to WH's self-image more than anything...making your point really telling....

Noodle:

All of what you are saying about the FOG is true..but IT IS WHAT IT IS...that is the nature of it..

My H remained SOMEWHAT foggy for at least a year in RECOVERY...

Just this morning he was talking about how a relationship with a much younger person can work...when I was talking about Anna Nicole... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yes but fog is not cleared by validating it.

I am not suggesting that sh e try to educate him...that is NEVER her job and is disrespectfull.

She can however sympathize by saying things like...I'm sorry you were disappointed....I'm sorry that you weren't satisfied with the efforts I was making.

It counters the claim that she was 1 betraying and 2 demonstrating abandonment via neglect.

He is looking to justify his affair plain and simple.

I don't advocate contributing to his belief that he is a poor neglected stepchild who can't control himself.

I would suggest demonstrate REGRET for ignorance or failure and desire to find solutions that allow for satisfaction of reasonable expectations.

Sis,

Remember what I said - you talk about what you think about?

He is thinking about broken vows, how things got to where they are.....

He may not yet be thinking quite correctly, but he is processing what happened to the marriage. NOT what is going on the affair, but he is thinking about the MARRIAGE. The details, where things turned, WHY things turned, broken vows. And I assure you, he's talking to you about broken vows because he is thinking about them.

Just that he's trying to put them over to you - the guilt must be very hard on him right now........

Plan A is working - he is thinking


You HAVE gotten through.

Count the phone calls. Wasn't happening before.
Count the apologies - how many times for the one error? Then couched inside the apology for going off on you, he sneak attacks accepting the blame for something else.

I agree with LG. LET HIM TALK. Open the door - you need some time alone with him.

Don't you still need a new water heater? That YOU NEED HIM TO INSTALL? This gives him TIME at your house, for a legitimate purpose, fills the NEED to be NEEDED on his side, and you can fix a low-calorie meal to help with his diet......and lots of time for the installation.

I thought I heard that water heater making noise, didn't you?


SB

Of course there is fog here. But remember, in addition to not meeting emotional needs, there was likely some amount of love busting which drained his love bank.

It takes more than an apology to fix this and to demonstrate that you have changed - JUST as it will take far more than an apology from him to prove to YOU that his cheating days are over.

The only mistake you are making here is in your expectations - if you JUST could figure out the right way to word it - you could clear his fog and he'd come home right?

Wrong.

All you can do is change you, FOR YOU, without expectation of reaction from him.


Yes, well, of course his addiction has no interest in allowing rational thought to enter the picture - so certianly the fog is interfering. However, like I said above, changes have to be proven over time....he's already come back from total withdrawal to to conflict .... this means he IS reacting to your changes, just not the way YOU WANT him to!


Oh I totally agree with noodle here. The thing is, you can learn alot from what he is telling you, if you stop trying to make sense of his reactions!

His feeling: betrayal, hurt, loss, abandonment, trapped in a marriage without emtional fulfillment...

Right or wrong, yes possibly blown out of porpotion by fog but still, these feelings are all FACTS that you can work with.

He isn't going to sit down and fill out the EN or the LB questionnaires with you right now!! So use this information to fill out those forms for him - you'll find it helpful in adjusting your actions (CHOOSING TO LOVE HIM) to meet his needs and avoid lovebusting him.


Probably not, but I think it is critical information for your marriage. You met his needs premarriage, and did not after the fact. This DID break a promise of love and cherish. HIS FEELING (which he has a right to have) NEVER JUSTIFIES HIS CHOICE OF REACTION.

So yes, there is fog, but pick through it and find your little gems of information that he is unwittingly handing to you.

The vow breaking I was guilty of was the “honor” part.

My natural sarcasm, and my <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> at or total disregard of H’s statements or suggestions pretty much trashed that vow, made huge withdrawals from the LB, and did little to feed his need for admiration. My way was the right way. And, yes, I still fight it as well - all the time.

The difference is – he now expresses his anger or unhappiness to me because I have made it safe for him to do that. I see that happening here with you, LilSis. Your H (without consciously realizing it) is feeling safer with you.

Good way of putting this, Still. This indicates the need to LISTEN now as the others have said..

Plus..you are gaining VALUABLE INFORMATION...Mouth closed-ears open...

Mainly my way of saying AMEN to Bramble and Schoolbus...

I do feel angry at him...when I think about those statements...when my Taker gets antsy...when I feel the hurt of the years of lies and betrayal...

But that's normal. Isn't it? Plan A requires tremendous sacrifice...done willingly and with love and with hope of ultimate payoff....but sacrifice none the less. Think back to when you were in Plan A. Were you sunshine and roses? Did you never get angry? Did your Taker never say, "what about me?" Didn't you ever feel resentful? I have a hard time believing that ANYONE could Plan A without having those feelings.

It's what you DO with those feelings that counts, right?

ONE alternative is to block those feelings out, hide them, sock them away in a corner of my soul. I do not think that is healthy. To do so would only lead to TREMENDOUS resentment later on IMO.

ANOTHER alternative is to unleash those feelings on WH. Pretty much anti-Plan A.

I am choosing A THIRD alternative. FOR ME, what is healthy is to put these feelings out there, unload them, process them, deal with them...so that I can move on. Yes, I feel resentment and anger now...but it is not consuming me. I'm feeling it now...letting it go.

I choose to do that HERE, in a safe place, where I hope to find understanding and insight. Again, I want to be challenged, and I ALWAYS am! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I need to know that I can share my feelings of resentment and anger safely here. Can I?

I am hypersensitive...this I know.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Good reminders, mimi! (sigh)

Okay...so step back...let him come to me...but what if he doesn't? How do I LISTEN...let alone Plan A, without contact? (brace for 2x4s...SEEDS, LilSis, SEEDS!!!)

This one is painful for me. How can I compete with RT on that one??? I don't have an attorney husband to leave...all the admiration in the world won't change that reality. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


My therapist calls me on this, too.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I am 100% with Noodle here. Sis, please engrave this on something and nail it to your refrigerator door - and read it each and every time he tries to blame YOU for "disappointing him" or "not living up to your vows".

Yes, everyone has the right to talk to their spouse and clearly state that their own needs are not being met - but that's not what your WH did.

He just went outside the marriage and screwed another woman instead.

Now he's trying to blame *you* for breaking vows??

"My broken vows + your broken vows = we are not married so I am not having an affair."

Please don't overanalyze this. Noodle nailed it, pure and simple.
Mulan



spouse know

Okay...yes...I get this and totally agree. I wasn't quite understanding what you were saying, I think.

Another important point that you make is in regard to MY ACTIONS. Duh...same rule applies to me as it applies to him...MY ACTIONS speak louder than my words to him as well. Didn't quite think of that....(sheepishly admitted) And I think I'm doing QUITE WELL on demonstrating my changes to him. And no LBs, not really. He's just not believing it yet. Doesn't "trust" it, as he told FIL.

Yes. I'M IMPATIENT. Darn it. Patience has never been a virtue of mine. I am learning, though...really. I take a deep, deep breath and ask God for help.