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"I am quite sure that Lilsis either earlier today or yesterday quoted directly from SAA that letters during Plan A were an effective means of communication. "

Yep. She did.

For the last few weeks, Sis has clung to this board...taking in every word and trying to follow the Plan A advice. My concern is that now, more than just needing a little Plan R time, she is avoiding the board because she doesn't like the advice anymore.

Sis, it seems like you are picking the advice that matches what your FEELINGS are telling you. I hope you are not at home writing that 2nd letter right now...all because you got the approval for it from LG. He is the only one who thought that was a good idea.

I am no pro. But I do read this board thoroughly. I am afraid this is all taking an unfortunate turn.

Your Plan A was working. You were seeing the fruit of it. But I don't think you reached the finish line. I guess I have nothing to lose by saying this, but DON"T BLOW IT NOW. You've worked too hard and changed so much.

I believe the Harley's advice could get you to the finish line.

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LilSis Backers:

This was posted by LilSis on Dec 19, 2006 Almost two months to the day.

This was after she first learned about MB and Plan A and her first interaction with WH with this new found knowledge of MB.

I post it to clarify the difference between where WH was than and where he is now. And to justify my reason for the 2nd letter.


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Okay, friends, I'm back. I didn't blow it. I did what I needed to to, was charming and fun and chatted about friends and family. I looked great, smelled great, and had a great attitude. WH didn't seem to be angry or resentful, just normal. What's up with that? I swear he treats me like I'm his sister or something.

Here's the run down (if you don't care for all the details you can skip to later):

He dropped off the DSs about a half hour before we needed to leave so that DS11 could change into appropriate Christmas program attire. At first WH told me (through the kitchen window...he wouldn't even come in) that he would just meet us there and for me to save him a seat. I objected, telling him that I had promised DS11 that we would go together. WH relented and said he'd come back when it was time to leave, so he left for something like 15 minutes (what was the point again??). When he came back, he actually entered the house. DS11 asked if he would come see the attic. I went up, too, of course. He said it was "cozy" and I asked him to sit down and check out the new TV. I hope he was feeling like he was missing out on something...we had planned to re-do that attic for years, but it was one of those things that got done bit by bit as we had the money. Finishing it would have been a big deal for us together...we always talked about a trip to Ikea to outfit it. It ended up being a big deal to me alone.

Before we walked out the door, I grabbed the container of his favorite cookies. So off we all went to the Christmas program...this is the first time we have all sat in a vehicle together since July 9. The boys and I carried on an animated conversation in the car. I sat next to WH in the auditorium, and while we waited (we were about a half hour early so DS11 could warm up) we chatted (and a couple of times whispered!) about Christmas presents and I told a couple of funny stories about the kids. He had brought along a boating magazine and I kind of looked over his shoulder at the pictures and we commented on various boats, etc., and I played a game with DS8. (WH barely acknowledged DS8, and I think even DS8 picked up on that). WH and I were, however, very friendly and cordial...no fireworks either way.

One of the songs performed was Ode to Joy, which coincidentally was the recessional at our wedding. I gave WH a nudge and and gave him a "remember this?" look, and he smiled...but not really, more a grimace, like, "oh, yeah." I kept leaning in close to get a better view of the stage. About halfway through the concert, right in the middle of a song, I leaned over and said, "I'm not wearing any panties." He said, "What, I didn't hear you?" so I whispered it again, and he got this big laughing smile and squished his eyes closed. So I ended up feeling like he kind of just laughed at me.

No matter...stick to the plan, LilSis. When the concert was over and time to leave, I dropped my program and had to bend down to pick it up as we filed out of the row. It's chilly doing that when wearing low cut jeans, I tell you, but I was hoping a glimpse of skin (my BACK, people!!) would impress WH, who was right behind me. It was very crowded and I managed to bump into WH a few times as we bunched up with all the other parents waiting for our accomplished musicians. Once DS11 found us and we appropriately showered him with adoring praise for his prowess on the clarinet, DS11 asked if WH would go out for hot chocolate with us. WH declined, claiming he was very tired and had a long day of training tomorrow (it was 8:30). DS11 begged a little longer, and I let that go on for a bit, then felt badly enough to jump in and tell DS11 that I'd make us some hot chocolate at home, which seemed to satisfy him.

When we pulled up in the driveway, we all piled out, and WH made a show of hugging each boy. Before he could hop back in, I went toward him--enough so he could see the hug coming--and he reached out and put his arm around me. I planted a kiss on his neck (I'm 5'1" and he's 6'3" so that's about where I could reach, especially while he's turning away trying to escape it). And I said, "Careful love you bye," which was our nightly ritual goodbye when he worked nights. He said thanks, and before I went in the house, I told him that it meant a lot to the boys that we went together and thanked him for that, then said bye with a big smile and wave. (I could have done better here for sure)

I can Monday morning quarterback this until the cows come home, but it won't change anything and I'm not going to waste anymore emotional energy on it right now. I did what I needed to do, and I got a clean house in the process. My boys were delighted that we did that together and they got to see their mom and dad getting along instead of fighting. I still feel so bad for DS8...WH really kind of ignores him. DS8 is in a group for "families in change" (how's that for a euphemism) at school, and the other day he had to draw a picture for each parent and put each one in an envelope. My envelope said, "To Mom from DS8." WH's said, "To Dad from DS8, you'r son." (punctuation his) There was a little star over the word son.

So I'm worrying about DS8, but also trying to interpret WH's actions and behavior tonight. Again, I feel like he's just Mr. Friendly...that there's no real emotion there. Is it possible that he's just completely committed to this new path in life, no question about it, and that I'm just some desperate STBX?

I know AmIok warned me about not expecting anything, and I told myself that all day. I didn't expect him to come panting after me (not that I would have been disappointed with that, and I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say a teeny part of me hoped). But somehow, the fact that there is no emotional extreme from him leads me to assume that he's perfectly comfortable with his decision to leave us; leave me. That it is a decision he has made, no longer struggles with, and is content with.

I know what mimi says about assumptions, but sometimes they are right, aren't they? I'd feel less "down" if he acted pissy or angry...then I'd know I actually affected him. I feel like I don't affect him at all.

Any thoughts, comments, feedback? And thanks, everyone, for your support today getting me in the right frame of mind. Time will tell...but I do think I could do it again. It wasn't as hard as I thought it would be, and now that I've done it once, I can only improve. The difficulty will be having the opportunity to do so...



What do you "GET" from this first interaction. Same insecure LilSis, seeking approval. What is different now? She gets blasted for it.

Do I advise LilSis to abandon Plan A? No. Do I advise LilSis NOT to talk Steve Harley? No. To start freelancing? No.

I advise her to SPECIFICALLY INVITE WH to come back home. To move back in. To work on the Marriage. That's all. Heck, it could be on the back of a housewarming card from Hallmark. Included with the next set of roses, even.

WH Says: "It isn't that simple" Yes it is. Taking that first step. Moving back in, makes all the following steps a lot easier. Plan A is about getting the marriage to recovery, isn't it? Plan B is invoked to stop further pain to the BS and to hopefully snap the WH out of it.

Because THIS WH needs THIS information. To know the path home is clear. No struggle in the Church Steeple.

Because if THIS WH senses that he can not come back home, considering all that has happened, THIS WH never will.

WH's entire world is starting to close in on him. And we need to make sure that LS is the guiding light back home.

And LS fell off the wagon this past week, And now she has to get back on plan. Agreed.

IMVHO.

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LG, I think you are right on with your suggestion.

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Nobody is blasting LilSis, and I think for her sake, we need to chill here. WE'RE getting defensive, and that needs to stop. She's said several times conflict here saps her energy. She said she'd call tomorrow for an appt. So, let's just let her and if we have disagreements with each other, then start a different thread!

I hope she DOESN'T read here anymore tonight. The girl needs some sleep!
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i'm editing this because i did re-read the suggestion from lousy golfer!

if i were lilsis, this would all be making me feel worse!

the first letter has been sent and everyone has given their opinions on it.

please let it go

lilsis,

please continue the wonderful plan A that you have been doing and make your appointment to speak to Steve Harley.

he will help to guide you in the right direction

there were different times in my interactions with my H during plan A that he was expressing "doubt" about the A or his living situation, or his ability to make ends meet financially

i did take those opportunities to let him know that i very much wanted him to come home, I knew we could get through this together and that i believed we could have an even better marraige than before

and Jennifer Harley had me make the same kinds of statements each time she suggested that i "put out the hand"
Steve may suggest similar things to you...or he may tell you differently

i think the roses that you have been giving to him, as well as your plan A have already made that clear to him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

until or unless steve tells you otherwise

continue your PLAN A!......you are GREAT at it

you have done such an awesome job of PLAN A and because of this, your H is responding!!!

have you seen or talked to him today?

if so, did you have any plan A interactions or are you taking a rest to rebuild your energy?


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Mimi:

Come on back.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> You can't stay away... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

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Some of the ramifications of this, go against MB Principles, Plan A/Etc.

But she is LilSis, Trying her best. On the ground. Dealing with a WH.


LG:

Why are you also not recommending strict adherence to MBers? I'm surprised at you, too. Didn't you go to the MB Weekend. Doesn't this run contrary to what the Harleys recommend for folks to do?


Mimi:

I was at the MB'ers weekend. Plan A/Plan B was never brought up. This is a concept for a BS to know about. To help return a M to balance. Not for couples at the MB'ers W/E. IF the couples are conflict, then the Harleys recommend to the consulting spouse that the plan A method is available.

And what LilSis has done, she has done. We here can not change it. We can scold her. But I would prefer if we just guided her back on to the right track.

And I am not scolding you. Your advice thru this entire thread has been invaluable to LS.

Just like me, you can't stay away.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

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Where is the ultimatum in LG's suggestion? Here are his three points.
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I now recommend simply that you send him another letter. Three paragraphs.

Asking him to come home. To live again as a family. His IL's will be there soon, RT want's him to make a choice. Make it easy for him. No deadlines. Just stating:

Para 1: I love you and why
Para 2: We can work on this Marriage together when you are here.
Para 3: I can never show you all of the changed LS in the times we do get to see each other. Please come home.


I see no demand or ultimatum here.

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MEDC:

Thanks for clarifying that, and EAV for pointing it out. No Ultimatium in the letter.

Just an invitation.

Let's call it a "Note" Ok?

LG

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TIME OUT.

I am the one who is going to go away here. This is getting out of hand.

I came here just over two months ago looking for help. And I have received MUCH MUCH more than that. But the drama unfolding here now rivals the drama in my real life and I DO NOT NEED THIS.

I simply ASKED, let me repeat, ASKED schoolbus to further explain her "seconding" LG's suggestion about another letter. What might it look like, etc. I did NOT say I was sending one, nor that I WOULD send one. I just wanted to know more about what she was thinking.

BECAUSE I KNEW IT WOULD CAUSE SUCH A RUCKUS, I WAS RELUCTANT TO EVEN ASK. That right there is a BIG BIG problem for me. When I feel like I have to CENSOR myself because of the possible reactions of others, or because I dread having to DEFEND myself...for just ASKING a QUESTION? Come on! What grade are we in?

But I did it... I asked a QUESTION about a POSSIBLE course of action. And look what happened. War breaks out. And I'm the casualty! Because this is NOT HELPING me or my marriage.

I feel I have been respectful and appreciative of all the help and support I've recieved here...PLEASE TELL ME IF THIS IS NOT TRUE. I also feel like I have been getting blasted here lately, simply for making missteps while under tremendous stress, for stating differences of opinion or for asking for clarification on particular points of view. Maybe you are all just getting sick of me...that's fine. I'd be sick of me. Wait, I AM sick of me.

I asked specifically this morning about what I have done (besides my meltdown) that was contrary to Plan A as outlined by SAA. The answer (from shelly) was that I had been getting to heavy on the R-talk and drama. Okay, I get that and totally agreed with her.

I also stated specifically this morning that I was all about going back to a great Plan A: no LBs and meeting ENs....to the very best of my ability.

I also stated that I would be calling to make an appt. on Weds. with SH.

BUT because I CHOSE to give WH a letter that contained NO LBs or ultimatums...just a love letter, really...and because I ASKED a well-respected poster about a suggestion that she made...

suddenly the wheels are off my Plan A and the sky is falling.

You know what...the sky fell on June 28, 2006 at 9:35 in the evening. The ugliness in my life was revealed. I have been--QUITE LITERALLY--to he11 and back since then. PLEASE GIVE ME A LITTLE CREDIT. I am tough and I am smart and I am a survivor. Yes, I want help. Yes, I want advice. Yes, I want support. I am also an adult, and I will take all of that wonderful advice and filter it through my own experience and my own values system and do what I think is best for me and my children...we are ALL we have.

There is no cookie cutter Plan A.

I gave that letter to WH and I'm glad that I did. Believe it or not, I did NOT do it as a snub to anyone here. I did it because I chose to. I made a call based on advice from a trusted source and on my (dare I say it!) gut. That was ME speaking. It was a love letter. If WH throws it away, fine.

I MAY NOT RECOVER MY MARRIAGE, BUT IT WILL NOT BE BECAUSE I GAVE HIM A LETTER YESTERDAY. And if I do not recover my marriage, I will go down knowing that I have done what I needed to do. Yes, I see all the I's there. That is my point. Because this is ALSO about ME.

The only one who is going to do ANYTHING to save my marriage is ME. WH already filed for D. He's done. It's up to me..alone...to grow, to change, to be true to myself, and to honestly share those changes with my WH with love and compassion. I chose to share my changes with my WH through a love letter. I chose to ask schoolbus about her suggestion.

My choices. If anyone who typically posts to me finds either choice to be so awful, so repugnant, so antithetical to MB principles, you may also choose to no longer post to me. I don't wish that to happen, because I assume that we are all adults who can respectfully dialogue and converse and agree to disagree.

So I guess it took this for me to finally stand up for myself. And it makes me really sad. All this talk about meeting people's ENs and not LBing...I guess it doesn't apply to our fellow posters, does it?

If that's not part of the MB "Plan" then maybe this isn't the place for me.

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oh sis

i'm so sorry this happened.

remember i told you that at one point on my original thread, it got to be like this.

someone wrote that my situation had all the drama of a great romance novel and that everyone was investing much emotion in my situation because my undying love and devotion to my husband made everyone want so much for me to have my marraige restored.....

everyone has just gotten carried away because they care about you sis

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LilSis,
I've had this "enough, already" feeling for the past few days on your thread ... I'm amazed you lasted this long. I hope that you can go back to your regularly scheduled updates with a minimum of analysis-and-picking-apart. But if not, then maybe it's best for you if you take a step back for awhile and don't post as much ... and email people directly from whom you want input. I hope it doesn't come to that, though - reading your updates is one of the highlights of my day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Just start getting your posts together so you can email them to Dr H before you talk to him. Start with the FOC phone call, and include all of YOUR posts <undoctored> (unless they're about soup or something...), but don't be lazy and say, "If you want to know what's been happening, read pages 4,560 through pages 97,037."

He might wish to see your progression/regression. I guess you could ask them when you make your appointment.

Edited to add:

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I asked specifically this morning about what I have done (besides my meltdown) that was contrary to Plan A as outlined by SAA. The answer (from shelly) was that I had been getting to heavy on the R-talk and drama. Okay, I get that and totally agreed with her.


Yep. And she is certainly right. But many others answered that question, including the post of Lexy's that you said you printed out. And they all said to quit lovebusting. What counts as a LB is not what you might consider a LB, but what your WH might consider a LB. It's about actions, not words (again...sorry).

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I also stated specifically this morning that I was all about going back to a great Plan A: no LBs and meeting ENs....to the very best of my ability.


And that is fantastic. It matters not how many ENs you may attempt to meet if you are lovebusting at all with a WS (esp one who's in a soulmate-god-brought-us-together-and-nobody-else-could-understand PA, and not an oops-was-just-getting-my-rocks-off-and-I'll-stop-it-now PA, (both the same thing in the end, generally, but not always)). If so, you can try to fill all the ENs you want to and it isn't going to matter if you empty your bank with LBs. One here or there is going to happen, of course, but hopefully not drastic!

When Mimi CAPITALIZES words, she does so for a slight <emphasis> that would best be illustrated by using italics. When she capitalizes whole sentences, my mental picture of her (after reading her for years) is that she's leaning forward, looking into your eyes, and maybe raising her voice level a tiny bit. Not as shouting, but as emphasis.

When I read your last post (you said to be honest), I felt like you were trying to control by anger, as if you were over reacting to what was said in order to deflect. Your capitalizing didn't read as a calm emphasis on words, but as shouting. It felt like an anger thing. You okay?

Nobody here is fighting. Discussing different viewpoints? Of course. Some MB Plan A, and some not. This is a message board, after all. Take what you want and leave the rest. Please make sure that what you 'take' vs what you 'leave' is advice you find counter-intuitive (MB Plan A) vs that which would make 'you' feel better. The best MB Plan A you can do is one that Harley has influence on, and by gosh, just about everyone said that.

Carry on, grasshopper. Can't wait to hear his advice!!!!

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<just sneaking back in to add this before measuring and cutting some new traces for a fantastic coach dating about 1770..all excited so therefore my time management goes out the window.>

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All this talk about meeting people's ENs and not LBing...I guess it doesn't apply to our fellow posters, does it?


No, of course it doesn't. The MB Basic Concepts are designed to maintain or to lead us back to a state of intimacy in a marriage not infringed upon by infidelity. Plan A and Plan B are designed to break up an affair if indeed one exists.

To create a state of intimacy with our fellow posters is not a goal.


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If that's not part of the MB "Plan" then maybe this isn't the place for me.


This is a message board, not the 'MB Plan'.

Can't wait to hear what Dr H says. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. ~Benjamin Franklin~
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I will keep praying for you Lilsis no matter you decision to stay or go.

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Ok I have to say this. LS is great and we are suppose to be her support team through her hard times. For those of us that are giving out judgements instead of advice then it is you who needs to step back. What we are here for is not to tell her what you think of the things she has done but to say not matter what the outcome is of what you have done we got your back. She came here for help and not to be judgeed. No one has the right to judge anyone else and no one likes to be judgeed. You all were wondering why the feel of her posting has changed and why she is not acting like LS. It's because you all stopped rooting her on and started telling her what she was doing was wrong. She did what she felt she had to no matter if it is a part of someone else's plan, she can't go back and change it it's done.

You see what happens when you put people on the defensive. No matter how good your intentions are what you are saying goes unnoticed. LS if I were you I would not let the people who are passing judgement chase me away from my only safe haven I would put them on ignore and let the ones who are being helpful without making you feel bad continue to help. Now do you see what I was saying about when you already feel bad about something enough on your own and not needing others to tell you how bad you screwed up. If the comments don't help change the outcome there is no point in stating them. This is just my .02 cent.

No matter what LS I still think you rule. BFN

MB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

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I will keep praying for you Lilsis no matter you decision to stay or go.


Me too.

LS, I never even heard of MB or Dr. Harley when I did my INSTINCTIVE Plan A, I only knew that I had to woo my husband back into wanting to stay married. I started my instinctive Plan A before I ever knew there was an affair. The signs were there but I couldn't believe it.

I paid attention to his complaints and fixed them. I let him know that I loved him, and later when he confessed I let him know that I still loved him and I could forgive him.

Do I believe the Harley Plan is the best bet? Yes. Do I think a letter telling him you love him trashes Plan A? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> No.

My husband, unlike Lexxxy, was torn. He didn't want to stay married because he thought the affair meant that the marriage was over, and couldn't see a path back to happiness in the marriage. But he also said he never stopped loving me.

So look at it like this. Most of us ladies have been pregnant right? And pregnancy follows a script, doesn't it? And yet, even though every one of us followed the same script you could get ten of us in a room and all our pregnancies will differ in some ways. Not only that, but my first pregnancy was not like my last pregnancy.

There is room for individual differences even in a scripted human experience, like a pregnancy, or an affair.

I read Eav's thread a long while ago when it was in chaos, and I was very turned off and left GQII for a very long time as a result. I would hate to see this continue on your thread.

At any rate please email me any time if you want to talk and feel you have nowhere to turn. You are in my prayers, DAILY. I never forget to pray for you and your husband. Prayer works, too.

No matter what happens, LS, you are a talented and gifted writer. I hope to read your book some day, no matter what the subject matter. You should definitely pursue such a goal. Can be very lucrative.


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

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I married him all over again, May 07
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and all our pregnancies will differ in some ways


Well, everything... except HOW you got pregnant! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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deep breath....

good morning, LS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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LilSis:

I apologize if anything I posted created additional stress.

You have to feel safe somewhere. I hope that this place can remain safe for you.

You are carrying a heavy burden. I hope I can help lighten it.

We all do around here.

You asked me once: "DO I BELIEVE THAT WH IS COMING BACK?"

And I still "BELIEVE IT" and I always try to post things that I "BELIEVE" will help that happen.

And nothing YOU have done yet makes me "BELIEVE" that it won't.

Unfortunately, I can't speak to your WH to make him "BELIEVE" it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

(((LS)))

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sis

when my thread got like this, i also made the statement that i couldn't believe that after everything that everyone says they have learned here, and how much they say they have "changed" i couldn't believe that everyone was making so many disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts and even making selfish demands!

i felt hurt lilsis

and i wanted to leave too

but more than that, i still wanted to save my marriage, and i knew this was still the best place to get help to do that

the people who really cared more about ME than they cared about my doing things THEIR way

those people held on until the craziness on my thread ended

because they still wanted to help me.they still led me through my plan A and my plan B but in a more caring and understanding way because they knew how hurt i had been

there are many people here who care about you and really do want to help you sis

i hope, when you are ready, you come back

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