Hi LG:
Really...an uneventful day. I left a couple of TMs during the day...no response. And no phone calls. I believe RT's XH has their kids today, so I'm sure the two of them were busy.

Although I know it shouldn't, it still kind of baffles me that WH doesn't make more of an effort to call the boys. They were off all day today...snow day again...and you'd think he'd call just to say hi, wish them a good day, see how they were doing, let them know that he's thinking of them. The mind of a crack addict...

Tomorrow night we will cross paths--and hopefully can spend some time talking--although if he spent today getting high I can assume the guy who shows up will be the alien. If he's at all "normal" and responsive, I will throw out the offer to get together sometime.

One day at a time. It's hard not to get impatient. See...LG...you "saw the light" at d-day. That was over SEVEN months ago now for me and WH. Granted, I've only been Plan Aing for a couple of months, but still...long time for WH to get comfortable with the idea of leaving the wife and kids, moving out, starting over...with or without RT.

Ahhhhh...it's just impatience. I need to relax, but that's easier said... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tomorrow will be a rose day, if I can figure out how to get it done in single digit temps without the poor things freezing on the back porch. I have to do real roses...it just wouldn't be the same to do it any other way...it's the tradition.

Sis:

My prediction..and I hope I'm wrong..tomorrow won't be a good day to make the offer..coming right off of a full day with her...

That was when I used to get the COLD SHOULDER...

LilSis:

Sorry about the quiet.

But you brought out something that is going to be happening. And can become a huge LB in the future. And will be if this M goes to Plan D.

That is that the WH "forget" about the kids.

Many do, and I am not looking for a debate.

Maybe, he had to work and was in the patrol car all day. Lots of activity with the snow, accidents, etc, didn't allow him to call.

Afterwards, yes, he went to RT. And he might have been there all day. I do not know. You do.

And if he wasn't wayward, how many times would he have called on a day like today? I only hope that he would have called at least once.

Even before I was involved with someone else, my DW thought I never called her, or my son enough. Because I worked alot. I try not to work to much now. Although I have to this time a year.

I saw a bumper sticker once. It said "Call your Mother" Truer words have never been written than that.

So, I try to call my Mother, DW and son more often. They may fret that I do not call more, (Ok, DS14, he doesn't seem to mind), but I do talk to them alot more.

Even if he hadn't called, he would then have come home eventually. After work, to see how everyone's doing, to have dinner, and chase the boys around. But he's a WH. Who moved out. And you are still worried about him. And he still needs to be the father of your children.

That's what we are trying to accomplish. It's just the tears in the heart in the meantime that make it so difficult.

So, your H hasn't forgotten the boys. Just WH has.

So, keep letting him know via text or VM what the boys are doing. It helps.


I thought about something.

Could you ask if you could bring the dog over to your house during the day, when you are home and H is on patrol? Let the dog run a little. You get to see him, and then you return him later in the day. Gives you reason to get into the IL's house. Creates opportunity for "accidental" meetings.

Just a thought.

As for this:



Yes, I only wish I never had to have had a reason to "see the light". That I could have discovered the MB concepts long before it ever came to that. Remember, Silentlucidity was in Plan B for 3 months and her WH was gone for over a year. So, you are in good shape. Patience, Padwawn

LG:

When we talk bad about Sis' WH, does it STING you a bit?

I'm going to speak up for Sis as a BS..which you may not understand...

You do speak more the voice of the WH..which is understandable...and OH SO HELPFUL here...

It is helpful for Sis to learn to ACCEPT THAT HER H is a WH, IMO...so that she can stop pining for her H..he is LOST TO HER NOW..GONE...I found it helpful to think this way in order to not keep on searching for him...

Since you are out of the fog,LG, you may not recall how it was when you were in the fog...that is certainly true of my H...

If Sis' H is anything like mine was, when he was wayward, ALL HE CARED ABOUT WAS GETTING HIS FIX FROM HER...just like a crack addict..just like Sis' H, he was not there for our sons and it was not for any other reason than he only wanted to focus his attention on her..

Mimi:

That was somewhat of a confessional wasn't it.?

I really wasn't trying to defend WH. I was really trying to point out that the H was there. And that she needed to let him know what the boys were doing, to keep H involved.

And you were right to point out, that somewhere after this process, a new man will emerge. Not the same as before, only better.

So, no, it didn't sting. Actually. I never even thought about it that way. I can see your point. And it could have been a blind spot for me. I will watch for it.

I still think that LS H is a good man. Just lost. But he can see the beacon that is LilSis. Much better than he could before...

I have my moments... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



I need to give up my hangup about this I know...

But when I read this point of view, I think it almost dishonors my H NOW...he is totally opposite than he was when he was a WH..when he was a WH, he WAS NOT A GOOD HUSBAND OR A GOOD FATHER OR EVEN A GOOD PERSON...that man was GONE..I'm not willing to say that he was there anymore like others are saying about their Hs...He was so TOTALLY OPPOSITE than the way he used to be..and he still isn't the SAME PERSON that he WAS...Until I came to grips with that and stopped searching for that OLD HUSBAND, I couldn't move forward with PLAN B...I had to realize that he was GONE and I had to try PLAN B to get him back...

NOW he's MY HERO..it's like he went off to war..he even says "when I was gone"..tells folks that he was "captured by a spaceship"...to me it's like he's been to HE// and back.. .I SO ADMIRE how he has picked himself up from that BAD PERSON who HE WAS as a WAYWARD...to being the wonderful NEW MAN that he is now...but this is MY VIEWPOINT and MY EXPERIENCE...

That's a hard one for me mimi, and I know that is so frustrating to you...because I keep wanting to see the H behind the ice, behind the WH. You are trying to protect me from getting hurt. However, I DO (on rare occasions like yesterday) see GLIMPSES of someone who actually does care. As much as that HURTS--to see those glimpses and THEN have them disappear inside the WH--it also helps me BELIEVE that there's something there worth fighting for. So it hurts, yes, but it motivates me to keep fighting. For ME, in MY experience, that "searching" helps keep me in the game, even though it takes a lot out of me.

If ALL I EVER GOT was the yucky WH, I'm fairly sure that I would have given up by now.

Like I said the other day...I KNOW the old H is LOOONG gone. Good riddance. He lacked the maturity and commitment to hold up his end of this marriage bargain. And this WH is WAY worse. So...I'm putting ALL MY MONEY...betting the ranch (as Mel might say)...on a better, wiser, more open H that can EMERGE from the fog/ice...and HE'S worth the gamble. The marriage that this new H and the new LilSis could have would be fantastic. We just need to have a chance.

And I think this is another area where you get frustrated with me (and I do NOT blame you a bit). When I whine about WH not contacting the kids...it's mostly just a vent...not an expectation...not really. Let me try to articulate it...because it's true that I WISH he would think to contact them on his own, but I don't EXPECT it. He's W...therefore, a jerk. But if I ever got to the point where I was OKAY with that "jerkyness," if I didn't still WISH he would behave like a caring father, if I weren't somehow baffled by his lack of consideration...then I would be PAST the time to go to Plan B. Know what I mean?

So when I stop needing to vent about WH acting like a jerk, then make sure you call me on that, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LG...in terms of calling...WH was always quite the caller. He used to call a couple of times a day, just checking in, seeing what was going on, tell a story, etc. So from my perspective, it really is indicative of his CRACK HABIT that he would fail to make any contact with the kids today....a snow day...

I can really appreciate, then, why you would argue your point of view! That's really insightful, and helps me to understand where you are coming from on this issue...it really does.

Ha! We were on the same wavelength again...I was typing my version of this as you posted yours. I can't go to Plan B yet because I haven't stopped searching. I know in my heart that I'm not ready for Plan B yet...who was it that just said the other day that I would "just know" when it was time??

Maybe "searching" has its purpose...might serve a different purpose for different people...for me it motivates me to fight...but maybe there was even some value in it for you...giving you the tools you needed for Plan B???

Thanks LG!

And please forgive me, Sis..

Everyone has there own different way of coping with this tragedy...

You seem so much stronger than I was...

Believe it or not, I was quite a mess in the beginning..ask Mel.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I used to come on here and talk about how I couldn't do this, I couldn't live without my H, he's all I ever knew, I couldn't deal with not talking to him BLAHDY, BLAH..so I had to develop a really tough skin and to stop expecting anything from him..

I, too, would see GLIMPSES of CARE..but that would send me over the top and I would think he was back..only to be HURT, HURT, HURT when that MEAN MAN returned....so I guess you are right, I'm being OVERPROTECTIVE, assuming that you may be like me....SO SORRY...



NOW THIS IS SUPER..that he has started to do this again..

This tells you something...

OW does not meet the CONVERSATION NEED...

He is becoming more of a CAKE-EATER...

Focus on the CONVERSATION NEED...

WHY DOES HE LIKE TO TALK TO YOU? In your voicemails, trigger this..you know the details of what might be good to say..does he want to tell you about his day..what's going on during his BEAT (is that the right word? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

That's what I've been TMing him about...are you staying warm/I worry about you in the cold...how are the baby rats...any word on the cause of the fire...that kind of stuff. Other ideas: The weather (his fantasy job is to work for the Natl. Weather Service). Politics/current events. Environmental issues. I'll keep thinking....and I'll keep it away from the boys so I don't fall into the "mom" trap.

This IS where I think RT can't compete...she REALLY lacks INTELLECTUAL CURIOUSITY. (nia: this is what I was trying to articulate before, and failed so miserably!)

DON'T YOU DARE APOLOGIZE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I NEED to be called on these things...so that I can think about them and examine my own motivations. I was ALSO a MESS, MESS, MESS. That is why I ended up where I ended up...that is why I could NOT Plan A for the first five months. I fell apart, physically, emotionally...unable to function.

And it does HURT when the mean man returns. It makes me feel defeated, down, hopeless; which is when I come on here and give the big shout out for support. This board--the 10,000--are my crutch. Everyone here lifts me back up, squirts water in my face, dabs the wounds and pushes me back out into the ring.

So as long as there are people here willing to play that role, I will continue to search for--and take solace in--glimpses of my H.

Does this make sense to you, mimi? Are you with me?

Good Morning LS.
guess what? we got some snow here... 6 inches....and a snow day.
they sent the kids home yesterday BEFORE it even started to snow. it's beatiful, we are overlooking a golf course now.....but,i miss my tall pine tress.

thanks for explaining that RT lacked intellectual curiosity.
there are many ways that i am not like her....just some of the basics you mentioned....friendly and flirty, SAHM didn't get her degee, who does not cook or bake much. (my H is the chef around here) a bit of a clotheshorse,drives a stupid mini van (which i hate btw....but i really have a difficult time w/ manuevering SUV's)etc.

I am sorry to her H didn't call yesterday.....crack fix day. she may make it very difficult for him to get away to call you or the boys....i just picture her hovering and him feeling guilty and confused about where is loyalty lies....silly, i know.

but, the fact that he has been calling more is very promising....1 thing is certain.....you are more on his mind lately...and he is feeling more comfortable and safe to reach out to you.

I totally understand tha tyou need to see glimpses of H to keep you motivated. if I hadn't seen the glimpses of the good guy in my H, it would have been very easy for me to hate him......leave him. I almost did once.....that was the big turn around for us.
I remember telling him the only reason I didn't leave was becuse he wasn't a COMPLETE [censored]. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

hoping today is a better day.

It makes PERFECT SENSE!! I'm WITH YOU a ZILLIONTH PER CENT!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dear LilSis, Mimi, et. al.,

Does the following little theory fit with your experiences?

The human mind is like a little kingdom. Various parts of ourselves have considerable autonomy. One part gets to sit on the throne at any one time. The part on the throne gets to call itself "I". It gets to determine behavior, emotions, and memory. Different parts feel differently, remember differently, and want us to behave differently. But the part calling itself "I" is in control. Some other parts are allowed to manifest themselves to the mind, some are locked away carefully.

Anything that we do or experience affects all the parts, although only those approved by "I" can react.

Dr. Harley's Taker and Giver are names for two such parts. Often the one on the throne keeps the other in the dungeon. The shifting between marriage states happens when one seizes the throne and throws the other in the dungeon. POJA provides for them both and so allows a peaceful coexistence and collaboration between them without the constant palace revolutions.

His plan A/plan B strategy works the same way. WS and S are different names for two such semi-autonomous parts. In a normal marriage S sits on the throne, responsible and caring. But there is an EN which, being unmet, is kept in the dungeon. It grows bitter and hateful and longs for the light. WS is a shell around that EN, made of bitterness, resentment, and entitlement. The A happens when it seizes the throne and puts S in the dungeon. BS, meet the Alien.

WS sits on the throne and controls actions, emotions, and memories. It protects itself with the Fog.

Plan A tries to meet the EN which led to the birth of WS. Only because the positive experiences reach all the psyche can it work. WS hates it because WS actually consists of this semi-autonomous shell around the EN made of bitterness and resentment. Directly meeting the EN threatens its hold on the throne and its very existence. Flashes of S appear in response to these efforts but WS still has the strength to regain control.

Plan B allows NC and OP to create negative experiences. These reveal to the whole psyche the inadequacy of a future life ruled by WS. The roadmap (recovery is possible) and the positive memories of Plan A (the recovered M will not keep an EN in the dungeon) eventually allow S to regain the throne.

S, unlike WS, permits emotions to be experienced like awareness of suffering, remorse, guilt, etc. The M enters recovery.

In Recovery the couple work on repairing the complex damage inflicted on both by the A. They also work to build a M without any ENs locked away in dungeons.

Once the FWS is fully recovered, the psychological fragment S is firmly in control and WS has vanished. FWS may not even remember what WS did. That's because the semi-autonomous fragment WS has fully dissolved, and the healthy M (with its POJA, honesty, and EN-meeting) can handle any new semi-autonomous fragments which might form without them becoming poisonous.

How's that sound?

A: Welcome back! I think your analogy works for me. I have likened H to a prisoner to whom I am smuggling in supplies, provisions, and even little files. Hoping, hoping, hoping that he can regain enough strength to escape the dungeon and overthrow the throne.

******

I did a rose drop this AM. I thought maybe I would get them there before WH left to go get his fix, to no avail...so I left the poor roses by the back door to freeze in the 2 degree temps. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> His truck was gone...as per usual on his weekday off...either he goes promptly over to RT's house or to the coffee shop. I do not know if she was working today as I avoid going past. He must be very eager to get his fix...leaving the house before 8:30 would not be part of his normal routine if he were at home.

On the card with the roses, I wrote, "Six--not four" (in reference to the 5-4-3-2-1 comment last week)

Lilsis,

not to be a downer...but, is there any chance he spent last night at her house?

"I" agrees today. "I" likes this description.

Nia...unfortunately..you're probably right about last night...

A: I absolutely LOVE your THINKING on this...I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU...



In reference to this part, my FWH continues to AMAZE me with this and I don't even call him on it anymore. Just this morning he was talking about how AWFUL that FEMALE ASTRONAUT is..he's much like a RECOVERED SMOKER, angrily complaining about AFFAIRS and INFIDELS and how AWFUL it ALL IS as if he NEVER HAD AN AFFAIR..so WEIRD....

I doubt it...she has her kids. Okay, as I type that, it sounds ridiculous. Why wouldn't he? Why wouldn't she?

It's just so GROSS. I have to feel SUCH sympathy for her three kids--two boys (10 and 5) and a girl (7). Can you imagine having her as a mother and role model? If WH did stay, he would have had to come and go at some point to take care of our dog. My FEELING is that even if RT didn't have the sense to not have her adulterous lover sleep over, that WH might have at least an inkling of conscious there....

Probably giving him too much credit...

I doubt he is feeling any inkling of concious here. I always thought my husband would also. But right now he is tearing apart 2 families without any remorse. And neither is she.
She brings her kids over there alot ( Idon't know if the kids spend nights there (I hope not)> I feel bad for her 7 year old daughter. This is the 4th or 5th man she has been with (from what I hear married to 2 ). I'm sorry but all this little girl is learning is how to be W***e. Sorry for the language.
I also thought my WH would never want to expose kids to that. In the fall he was caught sneaking over to her house by her H while her kids were there? I just don't understand this he's 45 and should know better.
I'm hoping someday he comes out of his fog and becomes the man I know he was.

SH01

You see what I mean, Sis?

I couldn't BELIEVE how LOW my WH SUNK, too..

Yes, the once moralistic good guy H of mine moved in with the OW and SLEPT with her ACROSS THE HALL FROM HER preteen daughter. I continue to find that to be SO DISGUSTING..and the man that he is today finds it to be DISGUSTING, too...SO WEIRD..that's why I'm always saying that my H was SO ALIEN and was NOT HIMSELF..he sunk so LOW..he now tells me that he DID WORSE..SO WORSE that he does not want me to ever know the things that he did..FEARFUL that I wouldn't be able to love him anymore..YUCK...

This motivated me, though, it didn't deter me...I became DETERMINED TO TRY TO SAVE HIM FROM THAT EVIL WAY OF LIFE...