Every BS should print out those words and memorize them.

Can you explain this passage to me?



I know you wrote this letter from your heart, but did you think about how he might receive this? As a WS, he is all about projecting his "happiness".
He will deny feeling any of the things you listed, plus I don't really see why he truly would feel any of those things. Why do you think he feels rejected? I can see cast out (from his family) or scrutinized -- but where do the rest of those come from? I think YOU experienced those.

Like you said, what is done is done. So we don't need to debate this. But I wanted to maybe point out some things so you can do damage control -- if your words missed the target.

you've done well Lilsis.... and you should not beat yourself up about anything you have done... learn from mistakes when necessary... and then move on...no beating yourself up though, you have endured enough of that from your WH and his antics.

i don't think the letter was a complete No-No....my concern was that it might be a bit too long....PERHAPS a bit mushy (for lack of a better word) but, i don't know your H and what turns him off....OR what he just might need to hear from you...i can't figure out what =s admiration to YOUR H.

the thing i find different about your H vs. mimis (and mine) is that he is NOT willing to have sex w/ you.

I think mimis H (and mine) SF= admiration.
I think LG felt that way too.
but,YOUR H seems conflicted about SF.....he seems to have better control over his own SF needs...in a twisted sort of way...he is loyal.....he is a 1-man woman.

oh, and I think it was Lexx who asked if you communicated w/ letters post affair...did you?
if so, how did he recieve them?

Good morning Sis -- hugs to you

Regarding all the conflicting advice here -

and, of course, I can only speak for myself, so for me ~~ the advice that got through to me in all my despair was often the blunt advice that was given... such as by Pep... she would just put it out there - those short words hit me right at my core...

Almost like - the truth hurts.... those are the words that stood out... wham !! and made perfect sense once it was pointed out to me

Sis, I did not have the advantage and insight of many FWH that I feel are invaluable to you... it all helps of course.

But when the words were briefly, sharply put out there for me.... they spoke volumes....

Just wanted to send along alittle advice on what helped break through MY fog !!!

I think most objection to any sort of letter [excepting of course dj/ao/etc laden ones obviously] has more to do with your expectation/disappointment than with any impact it may or may not have on him.

"So sending a letter is not out of the question or a complete no-no in Plan A. My letter was in no way a AO, DJ, or SD. It certainly was an expression of my feelings...maybe not so much on the "what I would do to resolve our problems" issue. I guess it could have been better, but what's done is done and I don't want to beat myself up over it. "

Nor should you..beat yourself up that is. I do not see how the letter could hurt. Not saying it will be the end-all, be-all wake-up call that sends him running back to you. But from all of your descriptions of him, I can't help but believe he will at least, consider things. Sounds like he's doing that anyway.

I am not an MB pro by any means so I'm not sure what I have to offer. But I can tell you that I read your thread multiple times a day and think of you often. I am pulling for you and think you are doing an amazing job.

That being said, it does appear that things have changed a bit in the last few days. Something about YOU has changed. You've mentioned before that you have a need to please people, a need to be understood, etc. It seemed like you were coming here honestly seeking the advice of the veterans...running every thought and action by them BEFORE-hand.

Seems like you're doing it "your way" now. Not knocking you for it. Just pointing it out. Also, I have heard everyone on the thread going on and on about what a stellar Plan A you are doing. You have been humble about it yourself...sometimes doubtful even. But in the last few days, YOU have been referring to your "killer" and "kick-a$$" Plan A. That doesn't seem like your style. I just wondered where that was coming from. Perfectionism?? Again...this is NOT meant to criticize.

Maybe it's your energy-level or maybe you're just feeling very wounded by it all. Both are understandable...and allowed :-)

Just a few things I've been observing. Feel free to ignore or tell me I'm off-base or out of line.

I'll still keep reading your thread, thinking out you and praying for you.

((lilsis))

I don't have any advice-I just wanted to say that I feel for you in your anger, hurt and frustration. During my journey I read something that helped me- that the pain we have means the injury done to us mattered.

You are only human and you are doing an amazing job of trying to save your marriage in the face of great pain.

Please go easier on yourself for your mistakes. As I tell my high school students, the only true tragedy in making mistakes is if we don't choose to learn from them.

You are on my heart.

IAG: No, you are correct, and I thank you for putting it out there. Maybe I am doing things more "my way," but I'm really not sure. I asked Shelly, but maybe you would be willing to respond...aside from the letter, what have I done that is contrary to the advice given here? I'm not clear on that. With the OBVIOUS exception of my little performance the other day...UGH...I really want to understand what it is EXACTLY that I am doing contrary to Plan A??? Please help me with that...?

A couple of other things that occurred to me...

First: I've learned a TON here from all of the advice I've been given. It has been INVALUABLE. Granted, I've only been at this about two months, but I have been reading here and posting here intently during that entire time...seeking constant, daily guidance (as you point out IAG, "every thought and action BEFOREHAND). At some point, I'm going to attempt to spread my wings a bit...take the training wheels off. I guess that's just my personality, and it's coming through. Maybe what I'm hearing from all of you is that I am NOT READY to do that.

Second: WS's are WS's. They are crack addicted and follow a script. You all have been trying to beat that into my hard head and I have been resistant to that. I know that...I wish it came easier to me...I really wish that...I WANT to feel that in my heart AND head. The flip side of that coin, though, is that we BS's are all DIFFERENT. Even though our WS's may be TWINS, the reasons that they married us are entirely different. If in our Plan A's we are trying to "go back" to the way that we met needs in the courtship...to not have to "ask" what our partner likes, etc....that's all going to be different for each of us, correct?

Sort of like what nia pointed out...she and mimi both had the opportuntiy to SF during Plan A. I don't have that opportunity. We each have to play to our strengths and do what we can given our particular set of circumstances.

To use another example...in dating, I never did the batting eyelashes thing. I just didn't; I'm NOT making a judgement about it, I'm just stating fact. I did other things that I have failed to "keep up" during our marriage, and I understand that I need to stretch...but I want to stretch in a direction that is appealing. The panty thing...it went too far, and ended up being an LB. I think WH is resentful when I do not honor his requests to stop, and I can see that is disrespectful. He has been MUCH more responsive to me when I don't go to those extremes.

If you want to look at actions vs. words...his actions in terms of coming into the house, doing things here, talking on the phone...have ALL improved since I stopped with the over-the-top stuff.

Just observations...

IAG: in terms of killer/K-A...you are right. I don't like that either. I wish I had phrased it differently...Part of what I was trying to convey is that I want to get BACK to doing things WELL, instead of how things have gone the past few days. I'm trying to cheerlead myself...??? KWIM?

Hi Lex: I did change the wording, to read:
In a way, I have been where you are now. I have been rejected, cast out, marginalized, stripped down, scrutinized, imprisoned.
I think changing the first sentence (which mimi pointed out was a DJ) qualifies the second sentence. It now refers to ME ALONE, my experience...connected "in a way" to where he is now.

That said...it does primarily relate to how he has been treated post discovery by his family in particular. They have been very, very vocal about their total disapproval and disappointment. They HAVE rejected him...his mother left the state to get away from him and spent Christmas alone. She barely speaks to him anymore, and his brother doesn't speak to him at all. I think that qualifies as rejection.

Many of his friends and co-workers now view him differently as well...I don't know how or if he percieves this, but I have heard from many of them that they are shocked and dismayed. Certainly he's subject to a level of scrutiny that he didn't experience before, when everyone thought he was this incredible, honest, forthright guy.

Sis:

Busy today so I'm not responding specifically to all that you have stated in your couple of posts today.

I come on here now to say this to try to further help you understand where I am coming from....

What I THINK worked for me in recovering my marriage and I really feel that Harleys would agree is STRICT ADHERENCE to their system. Of course, no one is perfect and I veered off course zillions of times. But, the main point of me coming to this forum..other than for support..was on HOW TO STAY ON TRACK WITH APPLYING THE MB CONCEPTS. Any divergence from that should be done at the HARLEY'S RECOMMENDATION.

Yes, there are differences in situations. But, using the MBer's concepts and theory, THE DIFFERENCES THAT NEED TO BE FOCUSED ON ARE DIFFERENCES IN EMOTIONAL NEEDS OF THE PARTNERS AND HOW TO BEST MEET THOSE NEEDS...

MBers is a BEHAVIORAL APPROACH..not determined by PERSONALITY TYPE OR DIAGNOSIS OR WHATEVER...I came to Steve Harley with that crap and each time he shot me down with taking the focus back onto THEIR SYSTEM..Bottom line: WS is ADDICTED to the OP who is meeting the PRIMARY ENs...

Steve Harley calls himself a COACH..saying do this/do that/say this/say that..based on his experience of knowing what works...

So I say..don't PLEASE US..in order to recover your marriage, FOLLOW THESE PLANS as closely as possible..come here to LEARN HOW TO BEST DO THAT AND TO STAY ON TRACK WITH MBers...

IMO, that is the major value of this FORUM..for those that can not afford or for whatever reason...get coaching from the Harleys...

Any divergence from their approach is at risk of not profitting from their system...and should be CALLED as being so...

When you log into this website, you are encouraged to learn the BASIC CONCEPTS and to APPLY them, this is what I support...

NOT YOUR WAY..THE MB'S WAY...

LilSis:

These past couple of days events?

Driven by your desire to break thru the "mask" or shell that surrounds your H.

MEDC proposed that you should write something down or say something and you wrote your letter.

All these wonderful positive things that your H was. And can become again.

So, this is on your mind.

You attempt to deliver roses. TO SHOW YOUR LOVE TO WH.

And WH Rolls his eyes and makes reference to the Divorce Date.

And you lose control, and state all the things that were in your letter.

Because as Schoolbus says, it was on your mind, so you speak it.

You say you stuck him. I will presume that these blows caused little physical harm. More like pounding on his chest. (Trying to break the Shell)

AND you are accused of anger management issues. (I understand your reluctance to put the truth out there now like you did before)

You have been pushed so far outside of your "normal" envelope these things happen. (Pep dancing on the Christamas Tree? I WOULD PAY to see that. But she will never have to do it again.... IF her H stays true)

And Since MEDC and I are the only guys responding to this thread, everyone else is really missing the German/American soldier metaphor.

THAT German soldier had been shown compassion by these same American soldier's earlier in the movie. He had been captured, and not killed or imprisoned. Told to walk along the road, your war is over.

And then he encounters the same Americans again. And this time he is not defenseless. HE Remembers the kindness given earlier, but now, he must do what he is doing. Which is a life and death struggle.

So, WH is stabbing you in the heart, and you are dying. Do not speak, Do not struggle. There is nothing you can do.

BUT THAT ISN'T TRUE.

You are the German. He's the American. You are stabbing his heart and slowing sucking the life out of his affair. And if you would stop, he can escape.

But his description to you at all that he felt that way? HUGE.

Your letter? May not have any effect on the WH.

But can have a huge effect on your H. WHEN and IF he ever decides really read it. AND your H certainly seems alot closer to the surface then Mimi's/Pep's/others.

Lexxxy talks about her reactions. When BS would scream at her. You just go into your shell and say that this will pass. Because it does.

And then one day, the WS decides to exit the Wayward world.

ANd all the things you have been doing come to fruitation. All the seeds you planted, sprout into bloom.

Around here, WS's are in the FOG, ALIENS, Not Themselves. That's true. But they are also human. Stuck in the choices they have made.

There is no magic bullet, no perfect phrase, that changes the WS back into H or W. It is the cumulative effect of these choices and these interactions that allow that moment to come.

Are you doing Plan A? Yes.

Are you doing Plan LilSis? Yes. Just like Plan Mimi, Plan Pep, Plan Noodle, Plan MEDC, etc.

Your husband is at the crossroads. He really needs to make a choice.

RT is D'ed, and the pressure is on.

LS is offering him a way home. To right many wrongs.

That is his choice to make.

And the rest of your life will not be determined by HIS Choice. It will be determined by YOUR Choice.


I've been recommending light, easy interactions with H. To get him to feel safer. To allow LilSis to state her mantra's and Truths in an easy way.

I now recommend simply that you send him another letter. Three paragraphs.

Asking him to come home. To live again as a family. His IL's will be there soon, RT want's him to make a choice. Make it easy for him. No deadlines. Just stating:

Para 1: I love you and why
Para 2: We can work on this Marriage together when you are here.
Para 3: I can never show you all of the changed LS in the times we do get to see each other. Please come home.

Some may accuse me of blowing sunshine at you. So be it.

But the goal is to recover your Marriage right? What ever it takes.

Hi LilSis --

What I wrote about seeing changes in you that worry me isn't meant to be a criticism of any of one thing and CERTAINLY not meant to further sap your Plan A superpowers! It's an observation, and not one I can entirely articulate well, except to say it seems like Plan A is sliding a bit off kilter. My opinion is based on the cumulative effects of what's gone on in the last week, maybe two. It's like the emotional intensity has been ratcheted up a couple of notches. Like the fire's so hot now, I fear the burning ash. Lots of drama, lots of heavy relationship talk. It worries me.

Nothing that's been damaging, in my opinion, but enough for me to push you to check in with the Harleys. That' all. They are, of course, much better at gauging where you are and advise you on whether to continue or get ready for Plan B.

Eave said it in her post, when Jennifer and others noticed her ability to continue was waning. This is not a criticism! It's a normal part of each person's Plan A! And it's a stage that very few of us are able to fully recognize in ourselves. I didn't weigh in on the letter, because I didn't feel strongly one way or the other, other than to think that it was more about your need to get that out there, than any of his needs. That said, I think it was fine, maybe great, don't know yet.

The whole Marriage Builders concept, while laid out well in the books, is still as much art as science, and the Harley's are THE artists.

Also, for heaven's sake, please stop worrying about offending or hurting us here by taking/not taking advice. The vast majority of us have learned to have pretty thick skins, and this thread is a tea party compared to many. I try to post as little as possible for fear of adding to the noise we sometimes collectively make.

Something in you, your earnest desire to work so hard, your humility, your willingness to accept the premise of MB, the whole Plan A/Plan B thing, these and other traits have touched many of us, thus the extraordinary response to your thread.

With you, we offer our opinions out of love, out of hope, out of faith for you, not to prove we're right or know better or whatever.

Take care,
Shellybird

I do NOT wish to be argumentative. I'm trying to learn and understand so that I do not repeat mistakes.

I know the basic concepts. I have read SAA. Basically, the book and basic concepts say that Plan A involves (1) avoiding AOs, DJs, and SDs, and (2) meeting as many of the WS's ENs as possible. That's it, in a nutshell. There are no specifics. Yes...all behavioral.

Neither the book or basic concepts describe EXACTLY what to do or SPECIFICALLY how to we are to behave while carrying out those two directives. So we all interpret, based on our own life experience and on what we learn from the Harleys in our own coaching sessions.

Sometimes I feel as if I am being told that is a "right way" and a "wrong way" to do this...when in fact we are all applying these very, very valid concepts to our own lives and to our own relationships and within our own circumstances.

I believe that SAA and the basic concepts are INTENTIONALLY vague...an acknowlegement of the fact that Plan A WILL be different for everyone. There is no cookie cutter. This is where the phone coaching comes in, to customize...but even then...in my sitch...Steve is only getting MY SIDE.

So again...I ask in ALL SINCERITY...what have I done EXACTLY that is contrary to those two Plan A directives? (OBVIOUS exception being the other day...ugh)

Help?

Shelly:
Thank you!! That's what I was looking for...I wondered if I was doing something really off base; that you were seeing something drastically wrong with what I was doing.

I am VERY aware that I need to tone down any drama, R talk. Actually, I've been TRYING to do that for a couple of weeks and keep getting sucked in...sometimes from my own doing and other times by circumstance:

He called and reamed me out about the FOC thing. Drama and R-talk.
I responded to his apology. R-talk.
I see RT drive by his house. Drama to me only...but impacts my energy none the less.
I told him about the stupid mud flap, thinking it would be something he could "help" me with/rescue me. Drama.
The dumb dog issue. Drama.
VD and b-day. Drama to me only...but impacts my energy.
Getting stuck in the driveway and the encounter over that. R-talk.
Spending the day together on Friday, tires, CD, etc. Small amount of drama with the CD, but a good recovery.
Saturday. MAJOR DRAMA, MAJOR R-TALK.

Anyway...thanks. And I didn't take your earlier post as criticism...truly, I understand that you are wanting to help, and I am trying to understand.

Sis:

What can we do/I do to get you out of this feeling criticized, needing to please mode?

When I made that comment..not your way/MB's way..I'm sorry if it sounded that way..it wasn't meant to kick you...just to state facts..maybe it's the you language that I used...

OK..NOT MY WAY..THE MB's WAY....

So...I wanted to call you on whatever day that was...on DJs, ANGRY OUTBURSTS, etc...you were doing a lot of that and wanted to help YOU get back on TRACK with the MB PROGRAM is all...

I don't have a need for you to please me or to criticize you...

You sound argumentative with me in your post..

Maybe I'm reading that wrong, Sis...

Is there ANGER there?

And if so, why?

TAKE WHAT I SAY OR LEAVE IT..it doesn't much matter to me, Sis...It's ALL GOOD...

Thank you, LG!

I also believe that his admission/identification with this movie and this scene in particular is really, really significant. Maybe it is just words...but where did it come from? He had to THINK of it...and he's not one who typically looks for real-life applications to movies. He had to process what was happening enough to even make the connection. And it's a reasonable connection...makes sense.

From his perspective: I am dying, and he's inserting the bayonet. He is telling me to just take it. Don't shout. Don't whimper. Just die already so I don't have to look at your pain filled eyes anymore. Just die so I can get the heck out of here.

I'm NOT saying he's not addicted. I'm saying he's conflicted; SB said this as well. Doesn't mean he's any closer to quitting his crack. But conflict is better than withdrawal.

I still have to work my Plan A. Light, warm, no R talk, no drama.

BTW: I prefer your metaphor...me stabbing his A in the heart...

Its the ol lovebank thing Lilsis.

Its harder for you to make deposits and easier for you to make withdrawals.

Every negative further justifies his choices, and withdraws at a much faster rate than when your marriage is in a normal state. And relationship talks are a major drain on a WS.

So for all the positive you built up -- obviously to the point where he was balking and fighting you; you easily wipe out with one angry outburst.

So if you aren't able to control it anymore -- then stabilize yourself, take a deep breath or two, stay away from him, and get your plan back under control.

LS --
If you have not already done so, I recommend that you fill out, to the best of your ability, the Emotional Needs questionnaire for your H. Determine what you think are his top 3-4 needs. Then write down from your H's POV how he best likes to have those needs met, NOT how you think they should be met. Then write down 3 things for each of those top ENs that you can do to meet those needs in the manner you best believe he would like them met. Then spend your energy on those to the best of your ability and to the extent he will allow you to meet them. If SF is one of those top needs, just skip that for now, since he won't allow you to meet that particular need. There's also a Lovebusting Q that is EVERY bit as important that you should also do, because until you stop busting, it will be extremely hard to meet those ENs. These are things Dr. H told me and had me do.

This will give you something concrete to do that will help clarify in your mind the sorts of things you should be focusing on. I sense you feel a need to *DO* something, and this will help. It will also help you divert you from some of the "what did I do wrong" self-talk that you're doing right now. It's best to calm that beast.

Hang in there,
Shellybird

LG... just to let you know... the suggestion I had for Lilsis was only to change what she had already written.

And yes, I see that too about the German... and the American paid the price for letting him off the hook earlier.