AMEN. You don't know how many times I asked him, "What can I DO to make our marriage work? to help you be happy? Please tell me what I need to DO." Of course, the A was going on at the time so his answer was, "I'll have to think about that." Hmmm...never got back to me on that.

The answer is NO. Pre-A, he would vaguely talk about some underlying unhappiness, but he could NEVER give me specifics about what he WANTED from me, what did he want me to DO?? I would get SOOO frustrated. Clearly, from my post above, I am a VERY LINEAR person (as WH has reminded me so many times as if that's a HUGE CHARACTER FLAW). I suspect that he was suffering from some depression AS WELL as the fact that I wasn't meeting his ENs. Being who he is, he would NEVER admit to depression in the clinical sense (a weakness? a failing?), so again, it was MY FAULT.

I have raised that with him...did you ever give me a chance, a choice, etc. But his response is stuff like:
"We are just not compatible."
"It was already too late."
"We weren't growing together, we were growing apart."
"I'm not the same person I was when we got married." (apparently I am??)

Yesterday was the FIRST TIME he has EVER ADMITTED that my actions WERE NOT A FREE PASS TO HAVE AN A. Too bad he responded to his own admission with that same entitlement tone in his voice...you all know what I'm talking about.

EVERYTHING HE SAYS COMES WITH A "BUT" attached. ("it wasn't a pass, BUT...", "I don't mean to hurt you, but..." "I know the kids aren't happy, but...")

Does that make him an A$$?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

What you are this morning is ANGRY..rightfully so..BUT you are going off the MB train into CAUSAL ANALYSIS and other stuff. Can you get back on MBer's? If not, it's time for PLAN B. This is NOT about that LEGAL STUFF..so get off of that. It's about BATTLES and a WAR. IMO, you WON yesterday but this morning you are on the VERGE of losing..if you don't get your MIND back on track.



The same words..sort of..came straight from my lips and I was called on them by Steve Harley.

Steve's response to me was something like: "When you were courting him did he have to sit you down and tell you what made him happy?" I never forgot that and use that in my marriage today. I sense what makes my husband happy..I desire to please him because I LOVE HIM. I don't sit around waiting for him to TELL ME.

I think it's GREAT..WONDERFUL..that your WH is making this link between UNMET NEEDS and his A..

He will not have to LEARN THIS AFRESH when it comes to RECOVERY.

No, you are not responsible one bit for his decision to solve whatever problems that he had..with himself..with his marriage..by having an affair..

BUT MOST DEFINITELY UNMET NEEDS CAUSED YOUR MARRIAGE TO BE VULNERABLE TO RT..and it is helpful and good for you to take responsibility for that...

LET HIM KNOW THAT YOU AGREE WITH HIM ON THIS..that you failed to meet his PRIMARY ENs...

Did you ever get HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS???

yeah, he's an a$$.
I Do think the fact that he admitted the affair was wrong is huge......he IS coming around.....the fog is lifting.
he knows nothing YOU did gave him the right to pursue an affair.
before this admission he could still kid himself....convince himself that he really didn't have a choice.

i really hope he thought long and hard about yesterday's conversation.
maybe at some point you can thank him again for admitting YOU did not cause him to have an affair.

the more i think about it, the more i see affairs as symptoms of a deeper problem......like any addiction...the affair just masks the pain for a while.

at some point your H he will need to face his own demons.
i can almost feel sorry for him when i think about that.....my H went to IC for several months before we moved last year...it really helped him.....he dealt w/ many childhood issues that he had burried. it was painful to witness.

I AM venting here this morning...very admittedly! Rest assured that I am venting here so that I DON'T vent elsewhere...and get it out of my system to move on with Plan A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Remember...my therapist is a huge advocate of letting the "emotions flow through me." I'm letting the uglies flow right through me and out onto my keyboard! You all get to be the recipients of it...but we are all in agreement...better you all than WH, correct?

Excellent point...and fortunately NOW I'm in a place to be VERY receptive to that observation. HOWEVER...back in the old days...it just didn't make sense. "Just TELL ME what you need!!" It seemed so simple to me. My comment on that was my pre-MB understanding. It's good to be reminded that my thinking at the time was VERY, VERY FLAWED.

Do WS's EVER have to learn this afresh? Because it seems like my WH is very clear on this...and uses it to justify the A. His entitlement mentality causes him to trot out every thing I ever did..."Remember that night back in March 2001 when you were too tired to have sex???"

I have. OVER AND OVER "I take responsiblity for problems in our marriage. I was not perfect. I wasn't what you needed and I understand that."

BUT, I am probably not using the right language. I probably need to say things in a very CLEAR way?

"I wish I had been more open with you about my vulnerabilities and let you help me with those."

"I know I wasn't available to you sexually as often as you needed and I'm sorry for that. I understand now how it hurt you and how you must have felt so rejected."

"I was so blind about how much you contributed to our family emotionally, physically, in bringing us together. Without you here, it feels like a table with only three legs."

Would statements like this address what you are saying? Or am I misunderstanding?

Darn...no. It wasn't at the bookstore last week and with all the drama this week I just forgot...I'm going to the bookstore today and I'll check again, if not, I'll order it TODAY.

I've been meaning to post something about this for a while, but life has gotten in the way and I'm also finding it hard to articulate it. But, I'll give it a try...

It sounds like your WH has some serious unhappiness about his choices in life -- where he's at right now. He obviously carries a chip on his shoulder about his family having "successful" careers and it seems he feels disappointed about being a cop. You've said something along those lines before. He's also reaching an age where people realize that their life isn't going to go on forever and often feel a lot of angst and regret about things they haven't accomplished.

I wonder if it'd be possible to open up some discussion about that with him and to possibly show him that you would support him changing career direction if he wanted to do that -- even if it involves sacrifice for the family. I think you two could have some deep discussions about your past and what went wrong and why you ended up at this point. If he sees that you truly care about his potential, his happiness and his contentment in life, it might lead you both to a new place and some real happiness. For many men, the worst thing in the world is to feel trapped in a dead-end career while life is passing them by.

Just a thought...

LS,
when i read mimi's post i think perhaps we are dealing w/ different situations.....i NOW know that MY H has had some severe addicitive tendencies dating back BEFORE we married.....so, when I read that Steve Harley told mimi to think back to when they were courting and how she knew his needs and didn't have to ask.....it doesn't really work FOR me.
i met my H's top 2 needs for SF and affection then.....I met them in our marriage.....but, that was never enough for my H....I was never enough.....he was looking for acceptance from others and i couldn't provide him w/that.

if your H is mentally healthy...listen to mimi.

I am so against the idea that the JOB we do is supposed to make us "happy and fulfilled"

no
our job is supposed to feed & house our family
it is an income

sometimes lucky people have JOBS that are a delight
but that is not the norm

and I seriously object when a MAN who is supporting a family puts the family at financial risk (in his 40s) because he does not feel fulfilled "by his JOB"

coal miners and auto workers and garbage collectors and farmers and truck drivers .... may not feel deeply personally fulfilled by their very important JOB, but they should feel proud that their labors put food on the table

this is a recent notion of entitlement that I think is just wrong

our hobbies and recreational activities with our family is what brings joy and meaning to most peoples' lives

and to tell a husband in his 40s to give up financial security of his grade school kids to seek possible JOB satisfaction ... is very risky in my opinion

if he could prepare himself for another career while still putting food on the table ... that is a different story

this would be another form of putting personal entitlement above family needs ... like having an affair is

that is MY OPINION

Pep

CRAP!!! I hope this was on the right track, mimi...because WH just called and I said all of this...

Back later...gotta make pancakes...natives are restless

Listen to what you are saying..you say he is being CLEAR ON THIS ..Isn't this what you said you wanted? For him to TELL YOU? Do you want this or not? He has to feel FREE to tell you without you blasting him. That's the OPENNESS AND HONESTY RULE of MBers. He is speaking HIS TRUTH about your MARRIAGE. It's not OK for him to talk about how you didn't bring in the NEWSPAPER or didn't SHELL THE BEANS.. but he is talking about an EMOTIONAL NEED of his.. GOOD FOR HIM..This is ESSENTIAL during RECOVERY..for him to talk openly with you about this and for you to ADDRESS meeting this need..It works both ways...he will certainly need to meet your needs in order for you two to have a HAPPY MARRIAGE..but you are not there YET..THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING...

BUT YOU DON'T WANT HIM TO STOP TELLING YOU WHAT HE NEEDS, DO YOU? Then you are right back to what you starting complaining about this morning? I remember my H saying one time early on something like.."Can you hear this..do you want me to lie to you..(this and that) really hurt me..this is how I feel? and then "Do you remember the time such and such?" Believe me, Sis, if he remembers something from LONG AGO, it REALLY HURT HIM and, as a man, he is sticking his head way out of the sand to tell you and it is important for you to EMBRACE THAT....

BTW, I TOTALLY AGREE with PEP about the JOB THING...

A JOB IS TO MAKE MONEY TO GO HOME AND SPEND ON HAVING FUN!!

I know this is taking it to the extreme but..OH WELL!!

Pancakes are cooking..

WH calls.
WH: Hi. How are you this morning.
LS: I'm okay. How are you. (somehow less than my usual cheerful self)
WH: I'm okay. Look....I really went off on you yesterday. I want to apologize again for that.
LS: Thank you. Did you talk to your attorney?
WH: No...probably not until early next week. Whatever...are the kids available?
LS: The kids are available. But can I say something first?
WH: go ahead (I didn't hear it, but I could FEEL the sigh...)
LS: You said something yesterday...I can't remember exactly what because much of it is just a blur...but you said something about how you took responsibility for what happened. And I want you to know that I really appreciate that.
WH: Okay.

LS: But I want to say again that I, too, take responsibility for failings in our M. (I didn't say this exactly as is, but VERY close) I should have been I wish I had been more open with you about my vulnerabilities and let you help me with those. I know I wasn't available to you sexually as often as you needed and I'm sorry for that. I understand now how it hurt you and how you must have felt so rejected. I was so blind about how much you contributed to our family emotionally, physically, in bringing us together.

Not that any of that gave you a pass to do what you did, but clearly I wasn't behaving in a way that made it easy to have a successful marriage. And I want you to know that I am now very ready to change these behaviors to make our marriage successful. I couldn't really do that before...when I didn't understand what I was doing. But I can now.

Pause...I can hear the police radio in the background...

LS: Did you hear me, or was there too much noise?
WH: I heard you. (his voice was not emotional. Just average, conversational)
Long pause....I'm waiting for him.
WH: Are you there?
LS: I'm here.
WH: I have to go take this BS call. I'll call back later to talk to the boys.
LS: Okay.
WH: Bye.
LS: Love you (but he had hung up by then.)

Reactions....

OMG!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

HE HEARD WHAT YOU SAID TO HIM YESTERDAY, SIS..and HE HEARD YOU TODAY...

He was NOT CALLING TO SPEAK TO THE KIDS!!!

I hope you didn't miss my post before yours....

LilSis:

You are doing great.

You are doing great.

You are doing great.

The cracks are starting to open in your WH.

He looks at his life and it's not sweetness and light.

But now he needs to KNOW the path home.

He's Dorothy in Munchkin Land.

There's a yellow brick road here. And everything is telling him to follow that yellow book road.

But he can't understand the tornado that brought him here. He should ignore that, but he can't. He really feels he needs to understand the tornado.

And you, and only you, with what you have learned around here, can help him with that.

Let him know, like you have been, that you know how he got there. AND you know how to help him coming back to the home.

LG

I'm totally with you, mimi. I'm trying to contrast where I was THEN...when I didn't understand anything about NEEDS...to where I am NOW. I can't CHANGE what I did in the PAST...I CAN DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY in the future.

BOTH are important to acknowledge and communicate, don't you agree? First, that there were some very specific things that I did wrong, and second, that I'm prepared to change those things moving forward.

That's why (hopefully I did this right!!!! Please tell me!!!) in this mornings talk I told him that I was responsible for those things...NOW I RECOGNIZE THEM and NOW I am prepared to BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY.

[color:"yellow"] follow the yellow brick road [/color]

Where does VALIDATION fit in with ENs???? Because I am CRAVING it at the moment....and do...all the time....ugh.

(fingers drumming, waiting for some commentary on my convo)

i can't see that, pep...what does it say??

I knew he'd be thinking about it, LS.
that stupid police radio.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

hopefully he heard what you you were saying. you did good.
he'll be calling back soon.

think about THAT....for a guy who wants you to leave him alone, he's been calling you quite a bit lately. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

i THINK
when our top needs are met we feel VALIDATED.
maybe not.

what exactly is it you want to feel validated for?

that I said the right things in my statements to WH this morning...particularly in light of mimi's comments this morning...

well, i think you did real good. but, i lean toward H&O.
i am curious to hear what mimi thinks....she is much more calculated than i am.

i was thinking you were needing validation from your H.
did his calling and apogizing feel like validation to you?
i think more is on the way.