Lilsis ~

Plan B is incredibly hard thing for most BSs to iniate. I disagree that Plan B is about taking control - Plan B is about letting go and letting God. It is a about trust and faith in God and self love - which you don't have alot of right now do you?

Mimi has been speaking to you alot about acceptance. I think that most of us found the ability to plan A in the face of the affair simply because we believed that if we could just do everything perfectly, the wayward would see the light and come home. Each of us believed that in some way, our own situaton was different.

Your plan A didn't "work", the way you really expected...and I suspect much of what you are experiencing is anger - resentment, depression, these things are fueled by a lack of getting "My Way".

The peace you are seeking comes with that acceptance.

You have some work to do on you before you are ready to Plan B. Plan B is impossible as long as you can't let go.

Please call Steve Harley. He isn't about a monolithic plan A and plan B. His first motivation is to take care of YOU. He will not ask you to plan B until it is really time.

Here is an old thread that I think might speak to you - you aren't married to an alcoholic and facing divorce...but I think the issues are the same...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

And here is more food for thought:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=008859;p=1

LilSis,

I too woke this morning feeling very anxious. I can so relate to that anxiety. Last night I cried myself to sleep. Woke up in the middle of the night and checked out what's going on here.

When I went back to bed I prayed for you (and some others) that we would find peace in this nightmare we are living. Like you I'm just about ready for plan B. Like you the big D is looming in the very near future.

Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you... and we will probably going into plan B at about the same time. We can help each other through it.

Hugs,
Still

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH BR about PLAN B...about the need TO LET GO..wondering if you are emotionally READY FOR PLAN B..not having ANY CONTACT WITH YOUR WS WHATSOEVER... the need to talk to Steve to get help for YOURSELF...and ALL ELSE that she says...

LS:

I parked behind a Vibe this morning.

Thought about you and your sitch.

I am way behind, and can not spend much time around here for the next couple of months.

But your story....

It was the end for me. At that moment, I felt like he11 was an appropriate place for me. A fitting setting, one to match my inner self. In some weird way, it made sense. Just one more nightmare...what's one more nightmare? My life is a nightmare, so this is just one one episode.


For no other reason.....

The memories of these things will haunt you forever. And NOTHING, NOTHING that the WH may do will ever atone for these.

I try to salve Mrs. LG's wounds whenever possible.

Acceptance.

Quite the road to follow.....

One day at a time.

LG

Lilsis... I am sorry you are in a bad place. This will pass. I am concerned about you and pray for you daily. I am afraid that you are going to get to a place that is hard to come back from. Please, whatever you need to do to take care of yourself is doubly important now.
I agree that Plan B is about letting go and relinquishing the allusion of control. You basically are saying... you have seen what I am....now you know what it will take to come home. I think that is how it should be. Others here have suggested a call to SH right now... I would disagree. I think IC is more in line at this point. SH can't be there to prop you up when your energy is depleted. He will offer great advice for sure...but I think the path you have right now is clear and you just need help coping with things. IC and prayer will be most helpful here.
You will be in my thoughts.

MEDC

BR: Thanks for this. I wanted to paste here for Still and others. (((Still)))

Unloading all of that this AM was very cathartic, actually. Maybe that's been building up and needed an outlet. In terms of going to Plan B....I am so ready to go there in terms of ending contact.

When I say that WH and I will cross paths...that's just a reality given that we both live in this neighborhood (as does RT), RT works around the corner, and WH patrols the neighborhood. But my ability to go dark (other than those close calls we will inevitably have given the circumstances) is not a question for me.

It's the emotional letting go...my own ability to KNOW that this is NOT about trying to dictate an outcome (control)...it is about stepping away and letting God take control. I think this is why I have been struggling so hard and really focusing on MY spiritual "place" the past several days. It is helping ME work towards letting go.

I also agree with MEDC that my IC is best at helping me with that. He knows me, understands me...SH is a stranger to me. I have been with my IC since shortly after d-day. He knows what I am struggling with…that this is an individual journey for me right now. I appreciate everyone directing me to SH, but I know where I need to be right now. I know that I am working towards Plan B, and SH can help when I am ready to make that move.

But the ability to “let go,” that’s all on me.

Here's BR's WONDERFUL post about "letting go":

Detachment with Love

We cannot "Live and Let Live" if we do not attend to our own responsibilities instead of focusing on the responsibilities of others. To keep the focus on ourselves, we need to learn to "detach with love".

We learn how to cope with the infidelity of those we love and to detach from the behavior, not necessarily the person. Infidelity is a family dysfunction. This means family members are deeply affected, physically, emotionally, spiritually, socially and intellectually, even though they themselves are not unfaithful.

The stress of living with active infidelity can have numerous effects:

Physical - We may develop health problems such as headaches, high blood pressure, stomach aches, ulcers, panic attacks, insomnia, and heart problems.

Emotional - We may feel angry, resentful, lonely, guilty, or depressed.

Social - In relating to others, we may be distant, aloof, embarrassed, withfrawn, aggressive, arrogant, self righteous, judgemental, or controlling.

Intellectual - We may find it difficult to concentrate, make decisions, comprehend what we are hearing and reading.

Spiritual - Our outlook on life may become bitter, despairing, helpless, hopeless, or lacking in trust or faith.

With practice and with support from others we come to understand that detachment from the wayward spouse's problems does not mean that we stop caring about the person.

Keys to detaching with love:

Responsibility - The first key in detaching is to begin taking responsibility for our own behavior. We can no longer stumble through our lives blaming others for the way we feel and holding them accountable for whether we are happy or not. No one can make us feel anything. It is our reactions to the behavior that causes our anger, resentment, pain and disappointment. When we blame others for our own negative reactions, we hand over all our personal power to that person and we loose ourselves.

Acceptance - Acceptance is the next key. We need to look at the reality of what has happened in the past and what is happening now. Many of us stumble in the beginning over the incorrect thought that acceptance means approval. Acceptance does not mean that we feel ok about current or past circumstances, it only means that we stop trying to change what we have no power over. We have no power over the past or the wayward spouse.

Even with acceptance, we need to grieve the losses caused by infidelity in our families and in our lives. Dreams have faded, bubbles have burst. Acceptance gives us two things - acceptance of our feelings and also acceptance of the fact that we cannot change the other person - healing from our loss and disillusion is an inside job.

The Three C's

Detaching with love is easier when we remember the three C's - we did not cause the infidelity in another, we cannot control the infidelity or the wayward spouse, we cannot cure the infidelity or the wayward spouse.

Cause - Infidelity is an addiction. Just as we cannot cause someone to develop diabetes, cancer, or any other disease, we do not have the power to cause anyone else to become addicted. Every addicted person blames others for their addiction and their use - this is their denial and their disease. Accepting that blame becomes our prison.

Control - Despite our best intentions and efforts, controlling other people does not work. Relationships cannot grow and intimacy cannot develop if one person is controlling the other. We only have control over ourselves and how we respond to situations, other people and their behavior. Trying to control other peoples behavior may temporarily make us feel better and give us an illusion of being in control - but in the long run, it does not work.

Cure - Only the wayward spouse can seek help for his/her addiction. No matter what we do, the treatment for the addiction is not ours to hand out.

Words that stand in the way of detaching?.

Why??
What if??
Yes, but?..
I can't?
I'll try?.


Why??

The main reason most of us ask why is because we believe with a little more knowledge and a few more details, we can "control" the situation and or person. Asking "why" only wastes our energy - it rarely changes anything.

What if?.?

What if's keep us from living in the reality of the moment and also keep us from admitting we are powerless. When we are in the past with the "whys" and the future with the "what ifs" we loose today. Today is the only day we have.

Yes, but?..

When we "yes but?" we are not listening to what others have to say. We are being self centered and self absorbed, and in essence saying we are so unique that what has worked for countless others will not work in our situation. Each time we "yes but" we are cooking up excuses inside our heads and our minds are closed.

I can't?.

This is our biggest lie to ourselves. The truth is not that we can't, but that we won't. It is where we let fear have control over our lives.

I'll try?..

The saying, "to try is to lie" refers to how easily we fall into making excuses. If we say, "I'll try" we lack commitment. "I'll try" allows us to bide our time while looking for an excuse not to do whatever we have said we'll try.

H.O.W.

HOW do we detach?

H - Honesty with ourselves and others.

O - Openness to hearing new ideas and breaking old ways of thinking and behaving.

W - Willingness to take risks and try something different.

Detaching with love does not mean that we stop caring. It simply means that we quit trying to control someone else and their behavior. We stop creating comfortable environments for unacceptable behavior. We stop lying to ourselves, we accept the reality of who the person is instead of focusing on who they "could" be.

THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT TRUE OF STEVE HARLEY. I had an IC and also coached with Steve. He was LOTS MORE HELPFUL IN PROPPING ME UP IN DEALING WITH THE INFIDELITY....while my IC was great with other issues UNRELATED to the INFIDELITY..

Medc, this is your opinion..but I'm basing this on my own very lengthy and involved personal experience with STEVE.

He is EXTREMELY UPLIFTING, INSPIRATIONAL AND KIND...

He is a PURE GENIUS, IMO..

I would not have achieved PERSONAL RECOVERY and MARITAL RECOVERY without his assistance...NOTE THAT I HAVE ALSO INCLUDED PERSONAL RECOVERY in this sentence....

I was with my therapist FOR YEARS prior to D-DAY..I still say that Steve was more helpful in UNDERSTANDING and DEALING with AFFAIRS.

I've even spoken to my therapist about this lately and he thanks me for what I have shared with him about MBers...and will use this to help others...He was not previously aware of this approach....

I respect your opinion about this, Sis..but I continue to be sad for you not pursuing that option...until it may be too late...

the sad thing is... why are the harleys SO EXPENSIVE? don't they understand the average person cannot afford those astronomical rates? do they have a payment plan? do they except insurance? i never counseled with them because no matter how badly i may have wanted to save my marriage there is no way in he** i could afford them!

i don't understand why they are so expensive. and yes, you can say that you can't put a price tag on saving your marriage, but you can if you absolutely do not have the money to pay out like that.

i am not bashing the harleys in any way. i have all the books and this site has helped me tremendously to heal from the ending of my marriage.

i just wonder how many they can actually help with one on one counseling when most probably cannot afford their rates. if they offer a payment plan or take insurance, than that is great, but it sounds to me like they do not??

i just think a lot more people could probably get help if one one one with the harleys wasn't so expensive.

mlhb

BR: I just have to reiterate how WONDERFUL this post is. I have pasted it into Word and am digesting it carefully. I'm very linear, so this speaks to me in my language.

Someone from the other post added "convince" to the three C's. You cannot "convince" someone to end his/her addiction. (how everyone here says you cannot educate a WS)

I have difficulty with this: (not arguing, just raising the issue in case someone can help me with it)
Although I AM responsible for my own BEHAVIOR, I think it is too simplistic to say that "no one can make us feel anything." WH's infidelity, betrayal and lying HURT me. If he had taken a knife and stabbed me, would I be responsible for being hurt by that? Of course not.

I just don't get that part, that others are not responsible for making us feel things. Never have. It just seems sort of like a cop out. Aside from my analogy about the stab wound, we are all part of humanity together. We are responsible for one another...at least in the Christian sense. (getting too broad here)

That said, I DO BELIEVE that I AM responsible for how I respond to the hurt that WH inflicted and continues to inflict on me. Thus Plan A/B.

BTW...I'm a big "yes, but"-er.

Again...thank you so much.

LilSis,
Thank you so much for pasting that in your thread. I'm going to print it off so that I can read it daily.

I know I'm not even close to being there yet.

What you write could of been written by me.... I feel the exact same way. It's conforting to have others around goign thru the same thing. We all will get thru this together.

BR,

Thanks for making that available for us again.

Still

I'm glad SH was of benefit to some successful recoveries. However, I believe that a Harley consultation is far from cheap? Certainly more on a per-hour basis than a 'regular' local therapist.

I suspect some posters might be able to afford a few consultations with SH, but will not be able to consult him on a weekly or emergency basis.

Mimi, LS's H is a cop, not a 'successful businessman'. Do you think this might make a difference to the financial aspects of therapeutic support?

I am sure I am not the only poster who has recovered their marriage successfully without consulting SH in person. I was well supported by a local therapist who made herself available at short notice when I was going through my roughest times. Many posters are not in the US, and cannot afford international phone-calls; the time-difference makes it less than practical also. Mimi, do you think all of these posters are doomed?


TA

A business will charge what the customers are willing to pay. Their charges are out of line... but people have been willing to pay... so there is no reason to change. But bottom line... this is a business for them. When their charges are double... actually more than double the Medicare allowable rate for counseling services... well, you get the point.... business.

Sorry for the TJ.

It is my opinion based on human nature that we need to stand on our own two feet and that while others can advise us... it is up to us to learn to do so. A pep talk is not what is needed here, IMO. What I see needed is a change in "self" that, IMO, can only be accomplished through lots of hard work and discovery. Marital "coaching" is working their plan... and a very good plan it is... but Lilsis needs to also work on herself and not just the M. That is the role of her IC in my mind.
Again, I did not need to consult with SH...if I did I am sure he would have been very helpful...but my IC helped me see that no matter the plan, putting up with abuse was not the best thing for me.

Perhaps Mimi...your IC was not as good as Lilsis's or mine. Just a thought.

My experience with SH was different, mimi. He was very directive, very no-nonsense, very much focused on the BEHAVIORAL components of working a plan for marital recovery. That advice was wonderful; just what I was looking for at the time. Further, I am perfectly willing to go to SH for advice on that issue again in the future…how, when, etc. to go to Plan B.

In our conversation, however, we did not get to the issue of my personal state of mind, and quite frankly I don’t know that I would feel comfortable doing so. To put it bluntly, he’s a stranger on the phone. I can’t see his eyes, he can’t see mine. I do not have a level of trust, nor the history that is required for him to guide ME to a place of personal recovery. So—for ME—I must respectfully disagree with you that SH would be in a position to advise me on my personal recovery, spiritual development, etc. in a way that comes anywhere CLOSE to that of my IC whom I’ve been seeing face-to-face once a week for the past six months.

If coaching with SH works for others in their personal recovery, that is WONDERFUL. I am happy for you. Personally, I really need to work with my IC on that angle.

You know...it's not even worth it..I'm going to pull a MEL on this one... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My therapist was very experienced and knowledgeable..practically saved my life through a lengthy clinical depression...but didn't even come close to helping me like Steve did..in fact, I'm more a firm believer now in BEHAVIORAL THERAPY and like I said, I spent years in INSIGHT-ORIENTED THERAPY..WAS a real proponent of it...

I clearly know that the Harley marital coaching is not for everyone..

I still feel that is unfortunate that more folks don't choose to use that resource...

Sis, I think this is not a match between you and I..No offense. I do wish you well with ALL MY HEART...but I do need to take care of myself

But receiving such personal attacks based on my OPINIONS on your thread could lead me away from MBers and I don't want to do that...

This is too valuable a place for me right now...

I'm sure you can understand the need for me to get away from this.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

mimi: Of course I respect your decision and your need to protect yourself. Your advice and wisdom has been and continues to be invaluable to me. You have been so generous and supportive.

I simply disagree on this one, and I do not see how the above could be construed in any way as an “attack.” That word casts a negative light on my statement that was NOT intended. If you interpreted it as such, I apologize.

You will always have my deepest gratitude, whether you choose to post to me or not. (((mimi)))

It was TOGETHER ALONE that personally attacked me.

It hit a NERVE with me..that stuff about my H being a businessman...

I help here but I have FEELINGS, too..

I still am RECOVERING from my H's adultery..

And I have my own triggers...

And for me to have hurt feelings about certain things does not mean that I am a martyr...

I could barely scrape the money together to counsel with STEVE..after living a lifetime of money not being an object..

That was an outcome of my H's affair...

So that particular assumption made my Together Alone was particularly hurtful TO ME...

I'll be alright in a few minutes....

I'm venting..

I would think you could understand that, Sis...

If you ever get to my place, it will take you YEARS and YEARS to RECOVER...

I AM A LATER VERSION OF YOU...

By all means, vent away. It just appeared to me that your post was directed at me in particular, and I wanted to respond.