Thanks Nia and LS.



Can you just accept it w/o judging it?

The lies I told myself at the time FELT like the truth...it's difficult to explain.

Fantasy became reality to me.

Pure craziness.

Accepting that your WH is presently lying, first and for most himself, can really help you.



Pity him, LS.

I do.

I remember.

I can tell you, it is a miserable place to be.

~ Marsh

I don't feel like I'm not doing Plan A. I sent a text about the sun shining today, it's beautiful. I'm being nice, friendly. I do not think I'm giving WH the impression that I've "given up."

But I'm not going to put myself OUT there--vulnerable to hurt--when my plexiglass shield isn't in place.

I just need a step back. Some distance. Turn inward for a couple of days.

Okay, Marsh. I said exactly that to MIL yesterday. I need to feel sorry for him.

I felt this same way at first. But he doesn't REALLY want to burn the bridges with you. My FWH still has a hard time telling me the complete truth about the A b/c he's still afraid there's going to be that one answer that makes me wake up and decide to leave him. They continue to lie so they don't lose you completely.



This will come in time.


My FWH also talked to SH while he was deep in the A. We went from a position of him helping me deal with an impending divorce. That was the only way FWH would agree to talk to SH was b/c he thought it was to help me learn to cope. SH said that was fine that he would get FWH to talk more openly once he got him on the phone.

I don't know if it really helped or not. I think it did somewhat, but my FWH is not open to counseling at all. He was raised to believe you don't talk to other people about your problems.

This is the same direction that finally got my H on the phone with SH.

Like I already said, in my case, it helped quite a bit, my H would think a lot about what SH had said. And couldn't refute the logic of it. One little beam of light through the fog, maybe?


It seems like a great time for Sis (or MIL) to put the thought out there since her WH is saying "do you know what it would take....?" "No, but I know someone who does, how about a no-pressure meet with him to find out if it's even possible? So low-pressure that it's even done over the phone..."


Eidted to add -- this is just my experience. It might not work for you, Sis, especialy if you don't seem to click with Steve.

-AmI.

Sis, I agree with an alternative approach to get WH to speak to Steve. Using the standard SH "wouldn't it be great to be in love with the mother of your children" point did not work for my WH....he could not have cared less if he could be in love with the mother of his children again.

Reading the divorce assistance approach above, sounds very feasible. This way, your WH is not agreeing to counseling for himself, but agreeing to do something to help Lilsis. I think he may just do it. He likes to be the knight in shining armour to your damsel. Love the idea. I must say, it sounds like the regular approach SH uses is pretty much cookie cutter (in the beginning anyway) and I can say for certain, it did not work in my sitch.

I think being close to the end game, you must go outside the box and try something else. Maybe call Steve one more time and see if this is a plausible plan.

Praying for you.

LilSis:

WH lie. I lied. I said I was doing one thing and did another.

Thought to myself that my BS was ok, and hardly even notices me being gone.

You build a base of information to allow you to comprehend an incomprehensible world.

One that my actions as a WS made incomprehensible.

And these lies, distortions & ommissions start to build up in ever greater quantities.

Since only two people are truly invovlved and have a sense of this incomprehensible world, they feed each other.

And then one day that world is exposed for being incomprehensible. And can no longer be supported by facts.

Look, the world is round. Not flat.

And the Waywards need to then start explaining to others that the world is flat. You do not know all the picture. It looks round to you, but it is flat. Otherwise, the entire world thinks you are crazy.

So, you keep on lying. To your BS, your Mother, children and others that are important to you. "Can't you see, the world is flat!!!"

Until, the WS realizes that they are the one with the tilted view. And then the lies and coverup are laid plain. And it's an awful lot to answer for at that time. ANd for a long time afterward.

Your IC and MIL are right. "BE STILL" this weekend.

Relax with your children. Play, be goofy and delight in them. My Son is on the stage this weekend in the "Music Man". I will delight in that.

But please call SH. I think it will give you the strengh you need to face the next couple of weeks of YOUR PLAN. And you can also talk to Jennifer if it ain't clicking with SH.

LG

~ Marsh: Happy Birthday!

PS: It's been six years since someone asked me: "Do you want to kiss me?" If I had walked away at that point and realized the gravity of that now. But, I guess I wouldn't be here trying to help, would I?

I am a firm believer in Plan B. It seems to me to be the old

Push and Pull

One pushes away - and then the other partner wants to pull them back... I think it happens all the time...

Friends, family members, anyone.... if you don't hear from them in a while - even if you really don't care to - it is just human nature to wonder what is going on - are they *mad* at me ?? You can't stand the silence from them.

I may not be making myself clear, but I think that Plan B does this exact thing and that is why it works so often.

One thing we all know for sure, Sis is her own person. Regardless of how much she or her husband or their situation resembles or are similar to others, SHE is not them.

Therefore, she has her own threshhold for saying "WHEN". And I believe she understands the MB principles and herself well enough to assess the timing and strategy for deciding WHEN.

Jo

I've read this thread (start to finish) in utter amazement-- as an outsider, perched on a balcony far above, observing a somewhat quarrelsome mob...

*gulp*

THIS THREAD-- so overwhelming, for ME!-- an outsider! I can't even begin to fathom how much turmoil Lil Sis must truly be in...

Who to believe, what to take, what to leave behind? So many... offering pebbles, bits, pieces of information on specifics that worked for THEM--

BS#1: you must follow Harley principles to "T"
BS#2: you must continue to Plan A
BS#3: you must quit Plan A, time to Plan B
BS#4: yes, seduce WS
BS#5: no, ignore WS
BS#6: you must follow your gut (forget Harley)

WS#1: Put yourself aside as BS, cater to WS
WS#2: A flawless Plan B was what brought me home
WS#3: A flawless Plan A was what brought me home
WS#4: I'd have melted if my BS suggested SF
WS#5: BS's suggestion of SF at height of A was major LB

THANK THE HEAVENS, my M is healed-- as I'd be totally confused if I had to try to make sense of all this...

GUESS WHAT? I think it's safe to say that all marriages/BSs/WSs are NOT CUT FROM THE SAME GLASS... and that what worked a MIRACLE FOR M #407, may not be the the magic potion for M #889.

Marriage Builders will NOT save every M-- Every perfect Plan A will NOT bring a WS back home-- Every BS that Lovebusts will NOT necessarily drive a WS away FOREVER.

NO ONE can predict whose marriage will/will not be SAVED.

No one... (God aside).

So, Lil Sis-- cut yourself some slack, honey!...

You're beautiful, your kids are beautiful, you have shelter, food, clothing, supportive best friend and counselor. If you can't be strong, it's OK!-- sometimes, you need to let others be STRONG FOR YOU.

You are so RIGHT-- the proverbial roof came down months ago... it didn't happen just because you sent letter #4, or said sentence #8, or forgot to bake goodie #7.

The roof came down 'cause your selfish husband CHOSE to have an A with another woman-- in an attempt to "fix" himself-- without considering YOU, YOUR PARTNERSHIP, YOUR VOWS, YOUR CHILDREN, or WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE WANTED/DREAMED/WISHED, etc, etc. etc.

(there... I said it... and damn it, it NEEDED TO BE SAID!)

And you know what, sometimes we need to recognize what a true **** our WSs have been/are being... and, YES, SAY IT OUT LOUD (as long as we do it on these pages, or to trusted loved ones, counselors, etc., and are NOT lovebusting to WS's faces).

Calling a ****, a**** can be so liberating. Who knew?

Lil Sis-- I got your back!

As always, said with gut-wrenching love, brutal honesty, and the ever-lovin' wish that YOU FIND PEACE.

***edit***

P.S. I'm allowed to lovebust, 'cause I'm not married to LS's hubby-- and besides, I'm flippin' good at it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />... and hey, that's SOMETHING (sometimes you gotta grasp at straws... as opposed to getting to your last straw!).

ohmy!
I really enjoyed that post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ditto Ohmy! That's telling it like it is... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That post made me REALLY SAD....and MAD..MIXED EMOTIONS...

I've only be trying to help, Sis...

Where have you been, Marie..during the hours we have spent here trying to HELP..not trying to hurt anyone...

And don't feel like I've been quarreling..

Again..from my own MBer's experience...

The nature of her thread was NO DIFFERENT than mine...

Yes..marriages are different..

And also what's different is a poster's reaction to conflicting opinions...

NOW I DO WANT TO QUARREL..but I won't....

Meg, I'm surprised..you wanted someone to be told off?

How is that helpful to Sis or anybody?

Yes. What a definite bad turn this has taken..

SO SAD...TOO BAD...

PLEASE STOP MAKING RUDE AND ARGUMENTATIVE POSTS!!

this is to EVERYONE!

this is not the purpose of marriage builders.

share your opinion and beliefs and your understanding of the Harley's concepts WITHOUT making judgements about those of others.

Then let the person make thier own choice.

all of this arguing is not helpful and is in fact hurtful.

there is a HUGE difference between sharing your thoughts and opinions, and the facts as you understand them and BULLYING and ARGUING WITH anyone who has view different from yours.


I would like to suggest that anyone who reads a post by someone being rude and argumentative IGNORE THEM COMPLETELY! Just act as though they didn't post at all and move on.

hopefully they will get the message and consider making changes in THEMSELVES and the way they choose to interact with people on this site so that they can be HELPFUL.

But instead the negativity is encouraged...

SO SAD...TOO BAD...

Sis,

You ask about lying behavior. Welllll, something I have studied. I told you I have a strange job.

Anyway, there are some basic reasons for lying.

-to get out of trouble
-to hide behavior we are ashamed of
-to make ourselves appear to be better than we actually are
-to set up situations to benefit ourselves (i.e., resumes)
-to protect the feelings of others

There are some others, but these are the more common.

You can easily pick and choose why a WS would lie to a BS.

There is also the behavior of "lying to the self". This usually happens when a person is in a position of inner conflict, and an A isn't such a surprise to elicit the behavior. Another time this will occur is during the planning and commission of a crime, especially if the crime is white collar and the person has not previously committed a crime (consider embezzlement as an example).

Lying to the self can occur when a person experiences loss, or major crisis. Such is the case in "rewriting marital history" - and both the WS and the BS do engage in this behavior.

Just some information to help understand lying a little better.


There was a question back a few pages about why a BS keeps asking a WS questions, why the BS tries to figure out what the WS is thinking and tries to rely on what the WS says, etc.

There is a cognitive process that we all use (and is considered an ERROR of cognition, BTW....please note), in which we basically make an assumption that other people think the same way we do. We attribute our own reasoning to others - and this is a FALLACY. Other people do NOT reason the same way we do, and do not follow the same reasoning steps or processes we do, and do not make their decisions in the same manner we do.

It isn't unusual to try to understand what someone is thinking, or to believe that they would not lie to you - because you would not lie to that person, and you attribute this characteristic to others. This attribution of reasoning is an error in reasoning on your part - on ALL HUMAN'S PARTS. We do it every single day.

That is why we cannot understand why a serial killer does what he does, or child molesters, etc............because we attribute normal reasoning to them, and of course, they don't HAVE normal reasoning.

In the case of a WS: their reasoning technically falls within the range of normal on assessment instruments. However, they fall outside the range of normal when it comes to the "assessment instrument of the real world" - which is, other people. You and I know they are NOT thinking straight.

Which is why we can't understand why they lie, or think like they think.

Does this help?

SB

To all squabblers:

Please go see eav's new thread. Discuss there.

LilSis has asked to refocus the thread to help her marriage. She needs support, and the thread has taken a turn which has resulted in adding to her stress, not helping to relieve it.

Posts should be to HELP LisSis - remember that.

Let's honor her request.

Pray for her this weekend. Pray for her WH, and also for OW. Pray that LilSis will regain her energy, that her WH will open his heart to her and God, and that LilSis will have hope and strength again, as well as peace.

Marie -
Do you really need to use that sort of language?

Yikes.

Hi LS,

If I knew how to link a post I'd be dangerous. But I don't.

So......I'll tell you how to find this one.

Its author is Ark^^ It was started on 1/13/2006 and the thread title is betrayed spouses....be still

I found it by using the search feature with Ark^^ and "be still".

I thought you would find it helpful.

Also, maybe some kind computer-literate perosn would link it here for you.

(((((LS)))))

I believe this is the thread Eaglesoar refers to:

betrayed spouses...............JUST BE STILL...........