I agree.

The boys need to feel free to ask their father anything.

What your WH is asking for is for YOU to help him out of a "stressful situation" that his A is causing for him.

He feels terrible having to choose between his boys and his *GAG* "soul mate". Too bad. So sad. Don't make this easy on him.

~ Marsh

Couple of things:

Talked to MIL last night...she hadn't spoken to WH. However...I forgot to mention this...a week or so ago I emailed WH with a list of dates that I have work things that vary from my regular schedule. A few days later he said, "About those dates...looks okay except for the Feb. 21...I'm going to Phoenix to visit my folks."

Huh? Oh....okay. I guess you don't need to talk to me about that. I guess you can just assume that for the 10 days or so that you are gone, that I'll provide 24/7 care for our children...

MIL was upset about this...that he had not spoken to me about it. I had sort of forgotten, honestly...so much other drama going on.

Also...I did print out Lex's clip from the other portion of the website, as well as Lori's story. A little reading material for when I need some perspective.

FINALLY...I didn't do this justice yesterday. Can we all please applaud PRINCESSMEGGY??? Please, pm, take a bow and let us all give a hip-hip-hooray. She single-handedly, and from 2000 miles away, saved me from having to contact RT's XH and found out the status of RT's D. Thank you, thank you...from me. Don't know if it's good or bad that the D is final...but at least I am relieved of the wondering.

Thanks, meggy.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You're welcome... like I told you before, I'm all about restoring marriages and if I can help, I'm there.

The more he has to think about deciding between his boys and HER the better.......I agree.... don't make it easy for him. Pile on the expectations.
he needs to see the light.

Sooner or later (hopefully sooner) he will have to stop and think.....what I am doing is ridiculous..... and wrong!

Brought the kids in today for haircuts at the barbershop. I'm standing there waiting while a man is paying...he turns around and it's M, the owner of the coffee shop where RT works.

I had exposed to him early (July/August?) and he essentially just shrugged his shoulders. "I don't like it, but there's nothing I can do," was his reaction.

I told him I thought that he was enabling their A by allowing her to continue to work there; that he should either fire her or tell WH he isn't welcome there any longer because he won't have that kind of thing going on in his establishment. I pointed out that he sends his kids to Catholic schools...and how consistent was this with his "faith." When he told me he would do nothing, I told him to ask his wife what she thought and turned on my heel and walked away.

So today at the barber shop he turns and sees me. I look him right in the eye and he says, "Hi LilSis." I just say hi coldly and stare ahead as he walked past. Behind me, he says, "Hi men," to the boys. His daughter was sitting there waiting for him...she's about six.

I felt like screaming at him...you a-hole. Here you are with your daughter, chatting it up with MY children, who no longer have a father thanks to this "woman" that works for you. You work back in that kitchen and engage with the both of them as if nothing is wrong when WH comes in to get his coffee and breakfast and hang out with his adulterous lover. You make me sick. For what??? The lousy $5 WH spends there every day? For the skanky ho who flirts with every man who comes in? Do you have ANY integrity?

That's what I was thinking. I said nothing, of course, so I'm unleashing it all on you poor readers.

I was also thinking just recently about a couple of "friends" who have mysteriously dropped off the radar screen since jail. One was a seriously religious woman who was always making meals for people at her church, praying for everyone, helping people out all the time...I haven't heard a peep out of her since October. Her kids go to the same Christian school as RT's kids.

It's been touched on before, but how common is it for BS's to get shafted by "friends" after an A? Is that another thing we all have in common?


BTW...Remember a couple of weeks ago WH mentioned that Avon still made that bubble bath in the pink bottle? I got him a bottle of it, along with some really good hand cream for very dry skin that Avon makes. Wrapped it up and stuck it by the back door at ILs this afternoon. I suppose that's more "groveling"....

Sigh.

Tough day today, Lilsis?

Have you been hard on yourself?

Have you thought about giving that "seriously religious woman who was always making meals for people at her church, praying for everyone, helping people out all the time" a call?

You could tell her you were thinking about her and were wondering if you could talk for a few mins.

There may be a reason that you've been thinking of her....maybe getting in touch w/ her again might be benefical some how.

((((LilSis))))

~ Marsh

Ugh. Crappola day with the restaurant man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

You've heard of the infamous 'cheeseless tunnel', haven't you? If you haven't, it implies that it's just a waste of time to spend your time wandering down some tunnels looking for the cheese <reward> at the end, because there simply isn't one and it's a waste of your time and mental process. Restaurant man is a rather cheeseless tunnel. You know? Even if he would have bounced her out on her CornyCanine a$$, she might have gotten another little hobby-job that was in some way even more annoying. Just hope the health inspector finds her spitting in Restaurant man's Benedict Arnold.....I mean Eggs Benedict....

Good job on the Plan A pingpong ball. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's not threatening enough to cause him to close up, but yet it's personal. Plus it gives me a giggle to imagine a big tall cop in the tub with his Avon Bubblebath reading Robert Frost.

I agree with Marsh that you might make a call to the Religious School woman. She might just be extremely uncomfortable about the RT involvement, and not know how to broach it with you. You'd probably be able to tell in the first few minutes what the truth of it is (that is if you like this gal and would like to reopen communications).

Sis,

Regarding the roses - if he has told her or if she somehow found out, then the comment about the 5-4-3-2-1 I could see as related to that issue entirely. If she does NOT know, then I would see the comment more related to the fact that there is likely a high level of D talk at RT's house. She's got her D, she wants HIS D, when is his D, yadda-yadda. Also, he's testing the waters - can I pull LilSis into a fight with me? Are those changes real?

Given what you have said about WH, I would find it unlikely that he would say something like this without the recent underpinning of lots of D talk there. It's hard for me to explain this concept in this forum, as it has very complicated theories involved, so the watered down version follows!

People talk about what they think about. They think about what they talk about. So, if there is "recency" of divorce talk, then the likelihood of talking about divorce again goes up, understand?

That is why the advice that you do NOT talk about divorce with him is so good - talk about recovery, because that is what he will think about. Use this to your advantage, as it needs to be part of your arsenal. It is science at it's finest. Talk a lot about what it is you want him to know, what you want him to believe. Talk the truth to him. Repeat it - because he will think about it, and what he thinks about he will talk with you about again (and whether or not you want to know this, he will talk to others about in one way or another, including RT - he will not be aware of it, however....we ALL do this).


Reinforcing the fact that his mother is a good parent, and she finds your changes to be good - and permanent - is an important message for him to hear as well. The pairing of these messages make a point he will ultimately understand: MIL raised him right. SHE is insightful. SHE might be right about the A..... The fact is that he hasn't "snapped" to the idea that MIL and your relationship will NEVER be duplicated by MIL/RT, and his comment really shows the conflict. He still has YOU in this role with MIL - if he had cognitively moved you OUT, he would be mentally working on ways to move RT in. But cognitively, I see this as a GOOD thing - he has NOT placed RT there yet! YOU are still the person talking to MIL, and he is talking to you and telling you to do so. Do you see what I mean? He recommended that YOU talk to MIL. Can you picture him telling RT to do that? No way. But there is more underlying this process - the cognitive aspect, the psychological aspect, it's fascinating me...........the fact that he hasn't yet made this leap.

My mind tells me that MIL holds more cards than WH is willing to let you believe. He may SAY he doesn't care, but his words to you reveal otherwise. One thing comes to mind:

He once said to MIL something like he would "go off on his own"? That was him begging her like a four year old boy to chase him down and stop him. Don't be fooled. That just plain REEKS of, "MOM, STOP ME BEFORE I RUN AWAY BECAUSE I REALLY DON'T WANT TO!". She used tough love and let him run. Good mom.

Who says we always say what we mean? Not in my business, folks.....not by a long shot.


I know this sounds complicated, but it's very simple in action:

Talk about what you want him to think about. Love. Recovery. Home.

Hi Lilsis,

Just learning just posted this on another thread..



I found it extremely insightful and thought you might as well.

The more you ask WH to do for you and the boys the more feelings of love he will develop....especially when you are there to admire him for it.

It's all a wonderful upward spiral.

~ Marsh

RS: Who stole my cheese?? A RAT, that's who. (I usually call them rabbit holes...unproductive wastes of energy.)

And I really don't feel a NEED to contact religious school woman...it was just the sense of loss and feeling of being rejected that wounded me. In reality, I know that it is not my problem. I have been thru the wringer, and I'm here now...doing okay. If she didn't feel the need to reach out to me when I was so obviously was in need...she must have her reasons. Thank God there were other people who came to my aid...it's really, really interesting--quite telling--who did and who didn't step up. As much as those things wound me, I can't let them things defeat me, either.

SB:
You must have done a very good job of watering this down, because I understand completely. Talk about what I want him to think about: Love, Recovery, Home. A new mantra.

So...Should these messages always be expressed with great gravity/seriousness, or can I convey these messages in a more light-hearted manner as well? I don't want to undermine my message by communicating it with the wrong sort of emotion, either too superficial or too weighty. Understand my question?

Second, do those messages have the same effect when communicated by the boys...in their own way? Do the boys THEMSELVES convey the message? Sometimes I think that he (with RT's prodding) thinks that I'm manipulating the boys...that they are really fine with this and I'm using them to guilt him into coming home. Truth is, he SHOULD feel guilty about leaving them, and they ARE hurt by his actions. But I can see how he would turn that on to me...I'm the bad guy for making him feel bad and for making the kids feel bad, i.e.; "confusing" them.

Also, if you don't mind me asking MORE...what would you suggest for MIL's interactions with WH? Given the dynamics of this relationship--his, mine, hers--how would you suggest she approach him? Continue with the tough love, "don't even THINK about bringing RT anywhere NEAR me" kind of talk? Have her reinforce to WH that my changes are real and sincere (she KNOWS this to be true BTW)?

Marsh: I like the upward spiral idea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My problem right now is pesky gravity...a downward spiral is a lot easier.

I got the boys going on the little photo book project. I went thru the boxes and choose a bunch of pictures for them to choose from...the boys, me and the boys, WH and the boys, me pregnant, our pets... For each picture that they put in the album, they are writing a little caption on a colorful index card that slips into the pocket facing the picture. They were having such fun writing the captions, drawing little pictures on the cards, etc. It's such a simple, kid-friendly thing. Both of them wrote "I miss you" on one of the cards.

I wrote a caption for the one picture that I put in from ME...a picture of the 57 roses from engagment day. "The most romantic thing anyone has ever done..." and left it at that.

Love. Recovery. Home. Those are soothing words.

I am so proud. Please indulge a proud mama.

DS11 got his report card today, and the ALWAYS A student got a C+ in Language Arts (because he didn't get the reading points accumulated). This was disappointing...however...his math/social studies teacher sent home a handwritten note:

Dear Mr. and Mrs. K:
I would like to compliment you on your fine son, DS11. DS11 is one of the most genuinely helpful young men I have met. He consistently notices where he can serve or help others. He does so without asking.

DS11 is both a fine student and a fine young man. He has a bright future ahead of him.

My compliments,
Teacher

I told DS11 that this means more to me than any grade he could ever bring home...I am SOOO very, very proud of him. I told him I am going to frame this note and hang it up.

I told him he should call and read the note to WH. Of course, he got VM, so he read it after the beep. WH never called back.

I am proud of your son too.

I think it is great that he called and read it to his Dad....H will call back and he'll be proud too....and maybe he will realize he should spend sunday watching the super bowl w/ his family.
keeping my fingers crossed.

For me, in the long run, what I've learned about relationships in general through this has been a GOD SEND. Folks whom I thought were my friends REALLY were not. I'm thankful that I am no longer as naive as I used to be. Turns out my H and I are beginning to make NEW FRIENDS. During the YEARS of early recovery, most of time was spent on focusing on our RELATIONSHIP so now we can branch out. Yes, Sis, there are many previous relationships that I have had to sever.



I really, really appreciate and am learning from SB's feedback. However, I want to just add that it's IMPERATIVE for us all not to forget the ADDICTIVE ASPECT of an A. We are not talking about NORMAL COMMUNICATION STYLES here. IMO, WSes DO NOT THINK and much of what they are doing is attempting to RATIONALIZE the A so that it can continue. So LOGIC AND REASON does not matter. IMO, trying to get him to UNDERSTAND or to THINK about anything is POINTLESS, Sis. Don't be surprised if you tell him the THE SKY IS BLUE and he says IT'S ALWAYS BEEN ORANGE if he thinks that will insure maintenance of his DRUG SUPPLY from RT. I ALWAYS BECAME FRUSTRATED WHEN I BEGAN INTERACTING WITH THE ALIEN AS IF HE WAS A NORMAL, THINKING HUMAN BEING. Talking will not convince him of anything and, unfortunately, there is the risk of him beginning to distance from his mother.

IMO, if PLAN A is not effective, the best option is PLAN B. For the WS, ACTIONS SPEAK MUCH LOUDER THAN WORDS. I guess you know this but I'm saying it again, becoming somewhat concerned about the talk about his THINKING and about what to SAY to him.




Sis, I'm suggesting that you leave yourself out of this photo album. Make it an album that he does not mind RT seeing so that he can continue to look at it even if you do PLAN B. Then there's a chance that she may LB. She would hate him looking at it but what could she say that doesn't show her for who she is. Plus, I was suggesting for the focus to be on him as a PARENT.....you expressing your APPRECIATION in a NOTE that goes along with the album.

As far as the album goes...I chose a bunch of photos for THEM to choose from...I didn't want them rifling through my photo boxes and pulling random pictures out, mixing them all up, etc. I can pull out the one of the roses...that has to do with me only. The rest they had to choose from were all kid focused, even though I'm in some of them (birthdays, trips, etc). Do you think those should come out, too?

I'm going to whine here a minute and feel sorry for myself, so if you don't want to hear it, skip to the next paragraph. It snowed like a b!tch here last night...about 6 inches fell overnight, and it's still coming down at the rate of about an inch an hour...to continue until mid-day. That means the roads are really sloppy and greasy feeling. The plows can't keep up so it's a thick slippery mess even on the main roads. WH is working this morning, so of course he knows how bad the roads are. Typically, he would have called to tell me to be careful as I was driving the kids to school, leave a little early and given me a little road report. Of course, nothing today. I'm sure RT got a call, though, even though her kids ride a bus to school. He never called last night, either, to respond to DS11's VM about his teacher's note. I know, I know, typical WS...don't expect anything...it could be worse...getting his fix...it still hurts.

Along the lines of the talking issue...still thinking about the 5-4-3-2-1 comment. When he said it, he was sort of laughing, like it was a big joke. I wonder if it just popped into his mind, or if he had thought of it before, or if he really understood (not likely) how cruel and hurtful the remark would be....how demeaning to a memory and a moment that was so special to me.

I still keep coming back to the idea that on our wedding day, I made a promise--a vow--to see this through in good times and in bad. I made that vow to WH, to myself, to God, to everyone in the church, and to our as yet unborn children. I have to see this through.

But I want to be honest with you all. I'm losing energy. It's becoming harder to stay positive and to summon up whatever-it-is (strength, motivation, positive attitude, energy?) to keep this up. I REALLY want to keep it up until mid-March. Let me recap my reasons:

**March 12 is RT and WH's "anniversery." I don't know exactly what happened that day, but her email was "beg312" (began 3/12) and her wireless password was 3122004415 (3/12/2004 and 4/15 being WH's birthday)

**Parent/teacher conferences are March 8-9. I don't want to be in Plan B then; it would be difficult.

**On St. Patrick's Day weekend, I'm going to Chicago with a group from work to have fun and watch the parade and see the Chicago River turn green. If I Plan B just before this, it would be a great distraction.

**ILs will return in mid-April, so WH will be making plans to find his own place, or will be preparing to move in with RT (I see that as unlikely, though, if the spousal support came with strings)

Any suggestons (aside from self-care) to boost my energy level? If only I were seeing SOMETHING in WH it would inspire me. I don't know how some of you keep it up for months on end. It's exhausting and depressing.

Maybe I need to up the dose of my AD. I have an appt. next week w/ the doc who perscribes my meds...I'll ask.

Mimi:

We aren't talking about normal communications styles here?

Yes we are.

And you know when you were talking to H, just like LS, Because you knew when you were talking to WH as well. One was NORMAL and the OTHER ONE was not. For the WW, the OTHER ONE was normal for them. Until, for whatever reason, they had to pop out of the alien ship and deal with the BS as a NORMAL person. DO you see my point?

Plan A the H and Plan B the WH. Right? Cuz you can tell the difference.

And Schoolbus's interpetations of body language, tone and language is so telling. Because it makes sense.

And it even makes sense for me as the WS. Just nuance. That's all.

As for the photo album, LS SHOULD have at least ONE of her in there. IF, and IF is a big one here, RT ever sees the album, she will react in a way that would be construed as a LB whether LS is in there or not. If RT asks WH to remove "THAT PICTURE" he will react defensivly: "MY SONS put that in there!" And if RT never sees it, Then he is keeping something from RT. Always a good thing.

And as an another thought, if LS isn't in there, then WH may interpet this as indicating that LS no longer exists nor wishes to exist in his life. Remember, he complains about the confusion of the Roses, but he doesn't throw them away....

Careful about the picture selected, however. Either one that the boys selected, or your looking your best. Not Marriage, or anniversary picture, something with the boys would be good.

#*%(@*! That's how I felt when I read this. I might be wrong, but what the heck is wrong with calling him and letting him know that he hurt DS11? This is not just about you and him, this is about his CHILD!


Stop. Close your eyes. Picture all of us surrounding you. We're holding you up when you're tired. We're cheering you on when H peeks through. We're mad as he$% when WH hurts you or the kids. We're here. You don't have to "stay positive" all the time. It's okay to get discouraged. Ask God for help. He's still around too.

{{{{LilSis}}}}

easily managed

2 separate appointments

Pep

Ouch, LG. I'm sorry IF I touched on something with you.

I'm speaking from MY EXPERIENCE with my H.

Orchid knows, herself, that I've had difficulties with her POV which IS DIFFERENT than Steve Harley's and she acknowledges that...Plan A the H stuff is not in any of the Harley BASIC CONCEPTS and those are what I followed and advocate.

MY H WAS ABNORMAL UP UNTIL 6 MONTHS OF NO CONTACT WITH THE OW!! HE WAS AN ALIEN BEING!!..so very different than the way he is now...traces of the fog remained for up to a year or so...

For me, it was most helpful to ACCEPT THIS and Steve encouraged me to ACCEPT THIS...because it was too hurtful for me to EXPECT or to think otherwise...Steve said: "You've got to GET THIS" and that's why I advocate this viewpoint to others...only because it was so helpful to me.

As I have alluded to before, my H was even WORSE than Lis Sis' husband to me and our sons. He was ALMOST TOTALLY OPPOSITE than he is now. Even when he was being NICER to me, he still was not REALLY HIMSELF. I NEVER CONSIDERED HIM TO BE NORMAL. I told myself that he was an ALIEN so that I STOPPED LISTENING to ANYTHING HE HAD TO SAY which was mostly FOG TALK and BULLCRAP...

In my mind, I likened him to being like a DRUG FIEND and that's what he was.

So, IMO, the WS' communications are ABNORMAL.

PLAN A is a PLAN for the WAYWARD HUSBAND and not the HUSBAND. IMO, RECOVERY is for the HUSBAND. IMO, when there is any contact whatsoever with the OP, your spouse is WAYWARD, ADDICTED and ABNORMAL. As an alcoholic, you're either drinking or you're not. NO IN BETWEEN. I do believe that this is the MB' viewpoint as it was told to me.

It's OK if we disagree, LG.

I'm certainly not saying that I don't find SB's information to be helpful!! It's wonderful...but I'm encouraging Sis not to put much credence in what her H is SAYING AND THINKING because right now HE IS TEMPORARILY INSANE AND GONE AWAY FROM HER..so sad to say but TRUE!!

No biggie about the album. I was just thinking that it might be something for him to OPENLY keep during PLAN B. He will HIDE it if there's a picture of Sis in it. I'm almost sure of that...or REMOVE her picture. He does not want to make RT UNHAPPY....

I know the trip to visit his parents annoyed you....but look at the bright side -- its one less week (or 10 days) or whatever that he is in fogland.

He will be with his parents (a very GOOD influence) for a long period of time. Maybe some of their common sense will get through!

Pay close attention to your energy level. It will tell you when its Plan B time. And try to look forward to Plan B, because that is when your husband will be coming back!

Maybe start working on your letter. Its stiill a proactive part of this plan, but maybe not as draining as Plan A.
When you're not feeling very Plan A'ish....work on your letter. That way you are still working your plan, just putting your energy towards something positive.

Have you thought ahead to your intermediary? Seems like MIL is the perfect choice. Have you shared MB with her?
Would she understand her role?

This is a perfect example.

I'm speaking in terms of MINDSET that I found to be helpful.

I didn't expect my WH to step up and to be a parent.

Meggy, callin ghim and telling him what he needs to do is USELESS. He will just use anything that Sis does as justification for continuation of his affair.

I think it's helpful to SEE AND ACCEPT THE WS IN ALL OF HIS HATEFULNESS AND UGLINESS...

Actually, Sis' H, as she once knew him, has DIED. Even if there is Recovery, he will need to HEAL from this....He will not be the same....