You just have to learn to see things from a WS perspective.

Think teenager...very close.

So sneaking around the kids differs from sneaking around the parents ...how exactly?

It doesn't. Prolly hum the mission impossible theme song while they giggle and scheme.

Part of the unlovelies.

Same was true of the OW in my situation...SO SAD for the child..I'm so sorry to this day that I didn't call Social Services on her..my H talked me out of it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The few times I spoke to her I actually called her the W word..and she called me the B word...SO CLUELESS!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yep. Same here.

I would call DHS but apparently not a big deal in our state. MOW's first H is trying to get custody from what I hear. I really hope he does. Granted that would give her more time for my WH but it kills me what this must be doing to her. She probably thinks this is normal behavoir!
Also her H doesn't want her to loose custody.... he want their son to know his sister. My attorney also told me to stay out of it, not my concern. If only I knew the name of her first H. Oh well
Mimi I would some day like to talk to her but I really think she is immature (29) and clueless. Her H told me that both her mother and siter are on thier 3rd M.
I pray every night that my H realises that he is losing his D's so fast. Is any person worth that?
LS I just want to say I think you are doing great and you are giving me ideas of what to do. Do you ever feel like it is LB's and making it worse?
The way I'm trying to look at it now is anything I can do to throw a wrench in this awful A can't hurt.

SH01

sorry to have brought it up.....for some reason, i felt it might help you (in some way) to consider it.

SH: I do have a sense sometimes that my efforts could be construed as LBs. Like the panty thing...I think it got to the point where he was feeling very uncomfortable and it lost its "humor." I went a little too far with it. So I have to be careful and feel things out a bit, follow my instincts and intuition. By speaking MY TRUTH, being honest with my feelings as well as the reality and fallout from his actions (effect on the kids in particular)...those really AREN'T LBs...they are just the truth. They are the reality.

Nia: no worries. Believe me, I've considered it. Then I lock that thought up in a little box and throw away the key! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Don't wanna go there.

I just TM my WH to let him know about a bad dream I had last night that woke me up in a cold sweat and how i wished he was there to comfort me like he used to. Do you think that is okay?
I just want him to know I love him and miss him. That our family needs him. I can tell he is trying to avoid me now. Although that could be because I'm making him uncomfortable and maybe feeling a little guilty.
I never get TMs back. But at times he does acknowledge them by telling me to please stop. That's why I'm confused if I'm causing more harm than good.

SH01

My WH tells me to please stop, too. So I did with the panties. But for the other things...roses, little gifts, TMs...I told him that I need to do these things because I am committed to my marriage, that I made myself, him and God a promise, and so on...and asked if he could please respect what I needed to do. That I am not asking him to do anything in response, just accept that I need to do these things for me, because I have to do whatever I can to keep our family together.

When I said it initially, he agreed with tears in his eyes...but then the next day or so asked me to stop again. I think the panty thing pushed his comfort zone, so I stopped that...but the other things are just me being honest, showing him my changes, letting him feel the consequences. So how can that be an LB?

There is that fine line between being needed and being needy...and we went round and round on this thread MANY pages back about that.

To me, I guess, calling about a bad dream has shades of being NEEDY. You have to be a strong person. Don't give him a reason to say, "See, this is why I HAD to leave SH01. She's clingy and overly dependant." (or whatever) But you can't shovel snow, you can't change the furnace filter, you can't do everything. You can't be a FATHER.

Show him you love him and miss him by being strong, being whole, being capable...not superwoman, not invulnerable...but emotionally solid...and from that place of being emotionally solid, and dispite the awful things he's done...you STILL want him and love him.

That's a much better message, and a message that is appealing.

I feel you 100% on that, I really do. Tell me about your Plan A after the first five months were up. What has worked? What has not? I am in a similiar situation where my wife has said that she will continue to see OM and has spent many nights with him. She was discovered this week and exposed this week, so it's raw and all quiet on all fronts. But I expect the dust will settle, and I hope that armed with the truth I will have the strength to truly build my Plan A.

Any help you can provide LilSis would help tremendously -

For the roses ... to avoid the cold ... what do you think about having them delivered? To his office, maybe? Might be a little late this time, but just in case it doesn't warm up.....

LS,

Your right that TM does sound really needy. It's just he was my rock. I'm trying to be strong like I used to be, but my world was swiped from under my feet.
I was thinking on my son's 14th B-day on the 12th to e-mail or text him about how at Retrouvaille he said this was one of the moments he felt the closest to me and remember how proud we were we had our son. And how our oldest was upset because that meant she would have to share a room with her little sister.
And Valentine's I'd like to make a cd of songs that mean alot to me and us and maybe a couple of pictures from our life together.
What's your opinion on this?
Thanks again LS

SH01

Still:

Could you post/paste this on your thread so I can respond to it?

I have a middle-aged brain and can easily get you and Sis confused....

Plus, you'll get more help if you stick to your thread...

I know you want to share with Sis but I'm sure that she will read your thread...

We'll help Sis over here and you over there, OK?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Mimi,

Will do that.

SH01

Nia...I didn't have time earlier....
Yay for the kids!

That's in a nutshell what I failed to explain the last time. RT is just THERE...inscrutible. Impossible to get to know. (maybe that was the attraction...I'm an OPEN BOOK) Sort of smiles and nods, and talks but doesn't SAY anything...know what I mean? I have such enormous respect for SAHMs...I juggled my schedule like crazy so that I can be at home in the afternoons for my kids because I think it is so, so important...and who cares about degrees, etc.? It's who's inside that counts...I believe that with all my heart.

I could TELL you weren't like RT in ANY way... maybe in some of those "superficial" qualities like driving a minivan or whatever, but those don't COUNT. And a person is NOT defined by the kind of car they drive or the initials after their nameor the clothes they wear. Are they caring and honest? That's what I want to know.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, just wanted to get back to you on that! (((nia!)))

The best thing about my little theory is explaining this puzzling phenomenon. And it makes it seem like a hopeful sign, actually. That WS way of feeling and acting has dissolved so completely that FWH can't even retrieve memories of what WS did. So there's no risk that it can seize control of the psyche again.

Provided that WS is really dissolved because the EN is being met consciously....not just thrown back in the dungeon to grow evil and strong again.

Which in your case it obviously is, Mimi! Just a theoretical possibility.

Incidentally -- credit where it's due -- all this semi-autonomous-fragment theory (mine and Harley's Taker/Giver) is from C.G. Jung ultimately (although perhaps Dr. Harley developed his independently from his observations). I'm only applying it to the data reported on MB.

Ahhhh...would that I had the opportunity to test your theory, A....

Now, tonight's installment of LilSis' Plan A-dventures:

WH dropped off the boys tonight; they just pulled in as I was plugging in the Vibe to keep the oil pan from freezing. As I was messing with it, WH came into the garage and offered to do it for me. As I walked past him, I leaned against him and put my arm around him and said, "Tough night." He said, "I bet." We stand there a minute. He mentions that he plans to go to Phoenix in mid-March...OH CRAP...I JUST REALIZED. That means he'll be gone for my trip to Chicago!!!

Grrrr...what do I do about that??? I made plans for a girl's weekend in Chicago for St. Paddy's day...see the parade, see the river dyed green. How fun is that? About five of us were going. I thought this was all going to be great because it was WH's weekend with the boys!

Okay...one more thing to worry about. Darn it! Back to the story...

I asked WH if he would want to take the Vibe to Phoenix...he said no, he'd take the minivan. (seems like a waste of gas to me, but then again, I'm still an environmentalist; WH now commutes in a Suburban)

The boys and I went into the house, a minute later WH followed with some of their stuff. I gave him a hug and asked if he would mind taking care of the garbage for me again.
WH: It is already down?
LS: No, I haven't even been home yet today.
WH: Well, you gather it up and I'll take it to the curb.
LS: Okay...will you empty the litter box while I go upstairs?
WH: No.
LS: Okay, then you go collect the garbage and I'll do the litter box.

So I go do that and I'm totally grossed out. It takes WH about 30 seconds to collect the trash from the various rooms, and he comes down to check on me because I am making noises (yuck, gross, etc.) He tells me to get out of the way, he'll do it./ No...it's okay./ Just get out of the way. So I do...and he finishes the dirty deed. As he's finishing, he tells me that the roses froze. (but he didn't tell me to quit this time...)

After he's done, I follow him outside while he brings the garbage cart to the curb. When he returns I point out how the snow is clinging to the trellis like a ribbon. Very pretty. I give him a hug, kiss him on the neck, and he one-arms me back. While I'm hugging him, and he's one-arming me, I say into his neck, "We should get together sometime."
WH: What do you mean?
LS: Just get together, no pressure, just BE.
WH: Well, we'll see (or something like that, so no one go all schoolbussy on me...but not a total NO!)
I pull back, look him in the eye, smile, and tell him I love him, he smiles at me and says bye.

As he's hopping in the truck, I remember...tomorrow is DS8's concert. (I assume he knows these things because he's supposed to be getting all the school stuff in the mail?) "Do you want to meet here and all go together again?" I ask.
WH: No, I'll just meet you there.
LS: Hmmm...I think that would disappoint DS8...we all went together for DS11's concert. DS8 would feel left out. (I tried to keep this non-judgemental sounding, but it's a fine line here...I want us to all go together for Plan A, AND DS8 WOULD feel badly if he didn't get a big show of support from his dad in advance of the concert)
WH: (dismissingly) Well...
LS: (lightly) What's the big deal?
WH: I'll just talk to you about it later. Did you cash that check?
LS: No (I give a huge smile)
WH: Just deposit it, would you? You have to.
LS: No, I don't. (big smile)
WH: Just deposit it, or I will. (hmmm...it's on the fridge??)
LS: (air kiss)
WH: (as he's backing out) Just deposit it.
LS: (teasingly) I told you, I'm not signing anything!
WH: You don't have to sign anything to deposit a check.
LS waves good bye.

I texted him a while later: "You were my hero again tonight, thank you. Coffee sometime? C-ly-b"

I had texted earlier in the day: "Did they freeze? You see, I'm not going to give up on you. I'm here, and I believe in us. I'm keeping my promise, please understand."

Not cashing that check is going to be a LB to him. The check is for support which he could be asked to prove that he has paid.

As far as your weekend goes... let him know of your plans and see if you two can come with alternate plans. Are there any friends that the kids could visit for the weekend? IL's, other family... don't cancel your plans.

You are doing great.

LilSis:

I think the check is working. MEDC, explain why it will become more of a lovebuster. LS needs opinions on this. I believe that it shows her committment. He can deposit it at any time, and take the original one off the fridge. He has access to all of it. Proof that he paid it? Yes, but only if LS makes an argument that she hasn't been paid. In the future.

WH going to Phoenix could be a good thing, according to the earlier discussion. MIL will LB him and he gets a break from RT (?)

But, it is his W/E with the boys. You will probably be in Plan B at that point, and HE needs to adjust his plans. He cannot presume to use your W/E for HIS Plans. He can even take them... Thoughts?

The rest of the exchanges with WH were interesting. He was almost pleasent. Explain your reason (like you did here) for requesting the "ride together" for DS8 concert.

The roses froze. Lots of symbolism there. And if he was gone all night, imagine the symbolism there. And most in your favor.

I will repeat MEDC: You are doing great.

Question:

Before marrying, when you two were dating, who chased who?

If he is obligated to pay the amount he could be requested to provide proof that he has done so. That proof would be a canceled check. And even though he may not think this will ever become an issue... he knows that the courts do will not merely take his word should he need to prove he paid that money. And he doesn't KNOW that Lilsis will not make an issue of this in the furture.... WE know that... he most likely thinks it... but it is his butt on the line.
I have no problem with her putting the check into a seperate account and letting him know where the money is and that it will never be touched... that it is their money. I also have no problem with telling him that under no circumstances is she going to deposit it... and that if he wants it deposited, he will need to do it himself. But make it clear. If he is continually asking about the check, eventually it will get on his nerves. I would just hand it back to him and tell him that you won't accept any more checks... that he will need to handle this since to you it is a sign of giving up... and that you will not give up.

Just my 2 cents worth