RE: nia17's question...

Yes...we were casual aquaintences as couples going back a number of years because our oldest were in preschool together. Almost three years ago now, we began to do things together as couples....I believe as a result of the A beginning (March 04). Not long after that, I suspected an EA...but didn't even know there was such a thing until I began researching on the internet...and that was well over a year before d-day. I confronted WH on the possiblity of an EA very early, but he denied. I continued to press the issue...more times than I can count.

NO ONE would have thought a PA was possible with WH...too principled, etc.

Okay, I'll get SAA out again and start highlighting it instead of beating myself up with it. I guess I should ACCEPT that I made mistakes and ACCEPT myself in spite of them. If I am willing to ACCEPT WH for who he is, why can't I accept who I am? or forgive myself? (and my "little voice" answers...maybe since WH isn't willing to fight for our M, I feel like I'm not worth it.)

I didn't make it to the bookstore today, but I will tomorrow. HNHN is on my shopping list.

No plans for spring break, Lex. Why...got a place somewhere warm? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

No matter what your mistakes were, LilSis, you did not (repeat did not) cause your H's infidelity. It is something in him! Was your reaction to <any various stress> an A? No, it wasn't. He choose to have an A, and his choice came from within him! It's his to own and his to fix.......just the way you are doing with your mistakes.

Please stop raking yourself through the muck and mire.

Ownership of your own mistakes and failings is wonderful. Trying to claim responsibility for another's mistakes is not good for you.

{{{{{{{LilSis}}}}}}}}}

Thanks for taking the time to answer.
I knew you were all friendly as couples but i never knew YOU suspected an EA or accused H of it....not that it makes much difference really....except that you suspected RT was in the picture and YOU were right.
I wonder if WH ever thinks about that....realizes that YOU were onto him (and her)long before you had any proof.


If he went to Arizona last year and came home trying to reach out to you......maybe he is planning on going to do some real soul searching.... again.
when does he leave?
you have been doing a great job...keep it up...make sure you send him home to MIL w/ lotsa positive LS moments.

When he told you he was going....di you ask him any questions about his plans?

It is something in him!

Agree with Spoon here totally, Sis.

I heard it from the horses mouth (or horse's a$$ is you prefer, or my H if you prefer even more) that HIS decisions got us here. HE chose this, and now he has to deal with HIS choices.

Sis,

On the question of "normal" or "not-normal" communication, doesn't matter much. Since your WH does not have cognitive impairment (I'm assuming he's not mentally retarded or autistic), there's the range of normal which does apply within the field that is appropriate for the purposes of what we're doing here. Were it a more scientific analysis, I would definitely be doing things differently!!!!! While he's acting outside his normal behavior, he's still considered "normal" in the sense that he communicates with the normal brain using normal language, and in my field, that's what we look for, for starters. It's not like he's started speaking Japanese to you - it's just that his pattern of communication has changed. This matches his behavior, so why is this such a surprise?

Like I said, we talk about what we think about, we think about what we talk about.

And our behavior is also likely to follow along. THIS is why MB works.

Your messages don't have to always be serious. But clearly stated, yes. And a variety of modalities is very good - the pictures are terrific.

Regarding the boys: The one thing that adults can easily pick up on is when a child has been told by another adult to "say something". Kids don't do this too well - when a child rehearses something to say, they do not insert it into the correct context. Instead, they blurt it out at the wrong time, or preface it with "Mom said to tell you...". The best way for the boys to express themselves is for them to do it in their own way, in their own time, in their own words. And they will - and WH will pick it up. It will NOT be the way YOU would do it, but they will do it.

Regarding MIL: Again, WH will absolutely know if MIL is saying something you said. He knows her style, her word choices, and yours. People use certain word sets, phraseology, and patterns. When they vary these, and use a pattern from another person's set - it is very easy to notice if the listener knows both people well. In your case, WH knows you and MIL well. I would advise against helping MIL "word" anything. She knows exactly what to say, and how to say it. She is, after all, the woman who got him to adulthood, and gave him the morals in the first place. She knows exactly how to push his buttons. I would just ask her to let him know that she sees your changes, and knows they are permanent - and that she would like to see him work it out with YOU. Or, better yet, ask her what she plans to say, and if she doesn't have this part in there, ask her if she would be comfortable including it.


I think the vacation is interesting too. I think he needs a break from RT - my guess is he can't take it now that she is flaunting her POWER and pushing him with it, too.

The "power" statement - it is blatantly what it is. She is telling him in no uncertain terms that she has him where she wants him, and is in control of him and the relationship. The "just kidding" remark that followed was put there as an afterthought, only as a fallback measure so that, in the future, if he were to bring it up she could say:

"Well, I put 'just kidding'. It was a joke."

BOTH OF THEM KNOW SHE WAS NOT KIDDING.

Typical of a liar.

SB

One more thing - behavior follows what we think about. This is very important to remember. Science proves it.

hence the "I need a drink" comment yesterday

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

pep needed another drink of Harley kool-aid....hehehe

NOT ME LEX

School bus refered to her "thirst" more than once yesterday

I'm hoping she got herself quenched

:teehee:

Regarding what schoolbus said about children relaying messages; Interesting situation last week. I'm in the car with DS, we are talking about his daddy picking him up from daycare, and DS blurts out, "Daddy says he's coming home". I, of course, thought he had something out of context, and left it at that.

Now, that thought comes back and smacks me in the head. Who knows, DS may have overheard a phone conversation, OR, he really was just mixed up. OR his daddy actually said something to him. I dunno, but it's interesting what a 4yo says...

SB:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one..

My H is HIGHLY INTELLIGENT...

But when he was a WH, he definitely acted and reasoned as if he had a cognitive impairment...he acted RETARDED..like an idiot most of the time...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

Could you talk to me a bit about what happened in the EARLY days when you and H started toward recovery? I posted the phone call I had with him on my thread.

Sorry Sis, everyone, I just need some insight. Proceed.

SB and mimi:
This is true. I'm not saying that the communications "truths" don't apply, but the things that come out of WH's mouth sometimes are so ridiculous that I just wonder if his head is going to spin around too. Like the thing about using the word "adultery." I know you explained that, SB, and what you said makes sense, but it becomes a real challenge to have a conversation with someone when it DOES seem as if he's speaking Japanese. The "communicatin patterns" have changed THAT much.

Question: would you consider communication from an addict to be "normal?" Is addiction considered (in your field) a cognitive impairment?

******

I called WH this evening to ask if he would come over and snow blow the driveway because I am unable to yank the pull start with sufficient OOMPH to get the thing going. I did shovel a path from the back door to the garage, but that was it. WH gave me some line about how the gas currently in the snow blower is probably too old, and I'd need to get the right oil/gas mix...WTF??? Does he seriously think I know a THING about that? I just sat in silence on my end of the phone for a few beats, then said, "Sooo, can you come take care of this for me, please?"

WH: Well, I don't know if I can make it tonight. I'll just call you later.
LS: I have a conference call from 7-8:30.
WH: I'm on my way home and I have to get something to eat, so I don't know. I'll have to let you know.
LS: I've got some soup if you want that.
WH: No thanks. I'll just call you later.
LS: Okay, thanks, bye.

It is now 8:50 and I have heard not a peep.

Clearly, he was not pleased to be asked for help tonight and resented the intrusion. Must have a better offer...

Could he be feeling "used" at all??? (help with this, help with that...)

Notice...not a WORD, not ONE WORD about DS11's VM last night. Now...even if he didn't get the message until late last night (say he didn't check VM until after DS's bedtime, yeah right)...wouldn't YOU call first thing in the AM? And failing that, call immediately after school?

Nope. He's the alien jacka$$. (thanks, daze)

hunny Sis

when my WH was [censored] deep in his A, he
went AWAY for the weekend with OW ... on Father's Day weekend

until I discovered the A, I thought he went to see his sick Dad for "possibly his very last Father's Day"

ask any honest former wayward ... all of them were chitty parents when they were on CRACK

Pep

yes, I was.

Sis:



Sis, I'll tell you this. You and I certainly speak the SAME LANGUAGE. I was going to ask almost the EXACT SAME QUESTION and then said to myself NEVERMIND...I think our WHs must suffer from the SAME SYNDROME..I would put a smiley but it's really not all that funny, is it?

All the more reason...maybe THE reason...to get them off the crack.

Whatever it takes.

Lilsis,

How much do you know about your FIL's A?

How old was your FIL?

How old was WH when it was going on?

What made him end it?

~ Marsh

huh?
>scratching head<

Sis, Mimi, others,

Yes, I was the thirsty one. That EN was met, thanks!

WS's aren't truly cognitively impaired. But YES, their patterns HAVE changed. The reason they say the things they say is because their behavior, thoughts, conversations, musings, all of these, have changed.....thus, you end up with the issues facing you. They now behave differently, say VERY stupid things, and do things that are completely out of character for what they would have been pre-A. Absolutely totally 100% correct.

This is exactly the point.

You talk about what you think about. And vice-versa.

The conflicts in the brain, the emotional turmoil, the morality issues they are thinking about, the loss of ability to make reasoned and sensible judgements are directly related to the affair. Most certainly. How this happened can be traced back to the beginning of the affair - they started talking to the OP, thinking about the OP, etc. It starts there. The conflicted feelings, the guilt, the "high", all of it. Leads to very odd behavior.

Stoooopid, but not really mentally or cognitively impaired under the criteria. And hey, let's face it, we do get a lot of really funny things to laugh at when they say their stupid stuff! ("Adultery, don't use that language!" Like you dropped the F-bomb in front of the Pope or something. Someday, you might laugh at this.)

Now, in Plan A, you are using essentially the same procedure. You are focused on a mission to put your WH into the mode of interacting with you on a certain level. A level which places you in the right frame of reference, so that he can once again "see you" as who you REALLY are - and reframe his mindset about you. The talking with him, doing things that meet his emotional needs, sending him letters or VM, all of this, essentially results in resetting his thoughts about you. It is meant to push his buttons in the direction of POSITIVE thoughts about you, to rekindle those thoughts of love, and keep those ideas fresh. That's why the more times you can talk positively with him, the more you can connect positively with him, the more often he can see LilSis in her true light, the more it increases those good thoughts.........and the more the thoughts shift back toward recovery thoughts.

The science behind MB is quite sound. Fits in my world, too! Plan A has the purpose of rebuilding those good thoughts! We do know behavior often follows thought.....and you have seen his behavior changing. Much more interaction with you, talks to you, etc.

The Harleys have it right on the money. They understand about the issue of love and communicating it often. It really does rebuild things.

Right now though, RT is pushing something, I think, don't you? She may sense the "pull" of you. That may be what you are seeing as him trying to pull back a little. Don't let that stop your Plan A, or let it get you down. His balking at things really signals more distress on his part, more conflict, and the fact that he is THINKING about things. That means you are scoring points.

Wine, anyone?

SB