Do you means SO I AM HAVING AN AFFAIR? I don't understand this...

But I think it's FOG anyways so to be IGNORED and DISREGARDED..just words..

Pay attention to the fact that he is beginning TO CALL YOU REGULARLY...

At my worst moments...

I prayed to God for the willingness to be willing.

That was all I could manage.

God answered by giving me the strength and peace to learn to accept responsibility for what was mine and to leave the rest to him.

Impatience is really frustration with failed attempts to force an outcome - to get MY WAY.

You sure are.

A month ago you were putting seeds into barren ground. Now there are little shoots coming up. Spring's coming, LilSis. Just keep tending the garden -- you can't rush the fruit.

Sis,

You are NOT competing with RT. You have that wrong.

RT temporarily fulfills a need in WH. Temporarily. The conflict you are seeing, that he is experiencing, is that he doesn't understand why it is so hard to leave YOU and all that you are - when what RT is seems like the "answer". He's conflicted because the bigger SELF in him somehow knows that what he's doing is wrong, on many levels: wrong morally, but really more wrong for the SELF of who he is as a person, inside himself.

The "competition" going on is within WH - the parts of the SELF - so much here to explain. I can sort of see it as a buffet line of life...........he has his life laid out before him, and he wants to keep certain parts on his plate, put certain ones on, save room for some things he thinks he might want later, other parts in the past he doesn't want to look at, other parts up the line he denies are coming up at all.....you get the idea. The conflict is that in real life, he knows he can't have the buffet! There's no a-la-carte menu, and he knows the full-meal-deal is with LilSis.....but that line is longer, harder, and means he has to go back and crawl uphill over glass before he gets dessert.

Think of RT as fast-food ----- and he will never be satisfied long term with that every day. You know that.

And the increase in interactions with you makes everyone here think HE knows it, too.


Oh, BTW, my comment about leaving an attorney for a cop - this was to speak of the "profession" aspect, its significance in terms of how he feels about his comparison to his brothers. It isn't really about the "man" she left, more about the "job" he had - it is a man thing. Guys have this thing about jobs.

SB

LilSis:

Wow. You started it this morning didn't you?

I can appreciate that you come here with your Taker exposed and wanted rant a little. You are allowed to. (OMG, YES, you are allowed too) Because WE in MB land can listen and advise. And sometimes, WE in MB Land should just listen.

Because everything else is noise right now.

Your H is wayward and spouting FOG and crazy talk.

But thru all that, he is beginning to address YOU, and what made him do what he did. He's blaming you, but when he comes home and the fog clears, that will be addressed. And when you post after that experience, 6-10 months from now, you will know. You will know that your H is really back.

Was the A YOUR fault? NO. NO. NO.

But understanding his thought process and how he ended up there, That you need to know. And your role in that is being addressed.

No more Mrs. P. Instead of 100%, 90%.
Mo More disrespecting his methods of being a father.
Finding ways to join him in recreational companionship.
I will use Still His Only Loves line: allowing your H to "express-- his anger or unhappiness to me because I have made it safe for him to do that"

Because these things are happening.

We here in MB Land can see them. Because we have experienced them.

I am the only one here right now who was in your H boots.

Everything that the debate was about this morning is true. But beside the point.

LISTEN TO HIM. HE FELT SAFE WITH RT 3 years ago. 2 Years ago. 8 Months ago.

BUT NOT NOW.

LISTEN TO HIM.

YOU KNOW YOUR TRUTHS>>> MANTRAS>>> AND YOU HAVE SPOKEN THEM TO HIM>>>>

WHEN HE COMES AT YOU FROM THAT DIRECTION AGAIN, YOU CAN, BECAUSE YOU HAVE, AT YOUR MOST RATTLED, STATED AND RESTATED YOUR TRUTHS.

BECAUSE, THAT IS THE ONLY THING HE NEEDS TO HEAR FROM YOU.

BUT ONLY IF HE STEPS OVER THAT LINE LIKE HE DID.

AND YOU GIVE HIM THE TRUTH. THEN AND ONLY THEN.

THE REST OF THE TIME>>>> LISTEN.

SWEETNESS AND LIGHT...

NUDGE... NUDGE... NUDGE...

You are the lighthouse. To be seen through the FOG. But it cannot speak. Until the boat is in port. Understand? But your truths are the foghorn, leading him to safety.

lg

Who used way to many CAPS this time...

noodle ~ I am talking about her husband's perception. You may not like or agree with his perception. But it is what it is. No one here is justifying his reaction (the affair). My terminology is NOT "runaway" as you put it, I used that word very precisely. You might not agree - thats ok.

He FEELS betrayed. Feelings are not truths, they just ARE. He feels that LilSis did NOT keep her promise, and I am willing to bet that his hurt and pain at this broken promise fed his growing sense of entitlement. It is a powerful insight to WHY he was vulnerable to having an affair.

She *did* promise to love and cherish and he married her with the expectation that he WOULD RECIEVE love and cherishing from the relationship.

He made a life long committment to LilSis with the understanding that LilSis would love and cherish him. She did not deliver the goods (from his POV). Does fog blow that out of porportion and make it worse than it was? Yes. But that does not mean that everything he says is false.

Some betrayals are worse than others. It is still a betrayal. (Thats why in the legal system, there are DEGREEs of crimes).

I have a huge problem with the constant use of "Fog" to allow BSes to exonerate the BS's contributions to the downfall of the marriage and disrespect the WS. To dismiss LilSis' WH's point of view does not help her marriage.

For recovery to happen, the BS must accept responsibility for the damage caused by the BS. Her husband is telling her how he was hurt and she needs to "get" that - just as he will need to "get" the pain he caused her.

It goes both ways.

I don't know what I did with my ANGER during PLAN A. I don't think my response in regards to ANGER was typical. I had spent so many years BLASTING OUT IN ANGER..RAGING...ANGRY OUTBURSTS WAS MY MIDDLE NAME..that upon discovery of my H's affair..I was mainly SAD AND HURT..HURT was my primary EMOTION...My H had spent many years of our marriage being so GIVING and I had not shown appreciation for that..I had been the one who was SELFISH and was the TAKER and he STOPPED GIVING to me and started GIVING to someone else..that makes my story DIFFERENT...and you are moreso NORMAL than I was..I think.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />




Of course express those feelings here! I have to pull back and realize that I can't relate as well to that aspect of your experience. As others here may know too, I used to be a CONFLICT AVOIDER (either FIGHT or FLIGHT) and I am still learning to "EMBRACE CONFLICT" as Steve H told me...so this is more MY ISSUE than yours, Sis.



LG and I are predicting that he will be COMING..He called TWICE yesterday. Be open to his calls.."Call me anytime..I'm here to listen"..SAY THIS OUT LOUD to him...

Gotta go..I'll be back later.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, BR...I SOOOO AGREE WITH THIS!!!

Here is another granola recipe that I use:
2 cups rolled oats
1 cup almonds (I use half chopped and half sliced)
1/4 cup pure maple syrup
1/3 cup virgin coconut oil or expeller press coconut oil
(or other unrefined or cold pressed oil of your choice)
1/4 t sea salt (I use celtic)
1/2 t vanilla
variations other ingredients I usually add:
raw shredded coconut
chopped walnuts or pecans
ground flax seed or wheat germ
Spread out thinly on a cookie sheet
after baking for 20 mins at 325 to 350 or until lightly browned, I turn it at least once, remove from oven
then add raisins, dried cranberries and or chopped dates, or other dried fruit of your choice
chopped dates
you can substitute all or part honey for the maple syrup.

quote]
noodle ~ I am talking about her husband's perception. You may not like or agree with his perception. But it is what it is. No one here is justifying his reaction (the affair). My terminology is NOT "runaway" as you put it, I used that word very precisely. You might not agree - thats ok.

I was not refering specifically to your terminology but to blurred terminology in general. Just because you FEEL betrayed doesn't mean you have BEEN betrayed. Part of the road back from WSville is to learn to distinguish between your feelings and perceptions and the facts.

Further I doubt very much that he DOES feel betrayed. We give faaaaar too much credit to the idea that poor WS was just a suffering quivering mass of unmet needs prior to their affair.

Frankly I think it's bullsh*t 99% of the time.

Everyone goes through periods of dissatisfaction and everyone has to deal with the fact that people sometimes disappoint us and sometimes they disappoint us consistently because they just are not able to deliver what we need at the moment.

Boo frickedy hoo let's haul out the violins.

What we had here was a fairly satisfied man in an average marriage. Were there some areas that could be improved...sure...but you don't see HIM posting here seeking them out do you?

Was he on his knees begging for guidance and help?

Seeking counseling?

Nah. He didn't even KNOW he was unhappy until his marriage had to compete with his drug.

He FEELS betrayed. Feelings are not truths, they just ARE. He feels that LilSis did NOT keep her promise, and I am willing to bet that his hurt and pain at this broken promise fed his growing sense of entitlement. It is a powerful insight to WHY he was vulnerable to having an affair.

Again, going to have to disagree with you. I think it's a line of bull. I think it is willfull revisionist history and attempts to rationalize and justify continuing to do what he knows is wrong. He is grasping at straws.

She *did* promise to love and cherish and he married her with the expectation that he WOULD RECIEVE love and cherishing from the relationship.

Have we seen her fail to love and/or cherish him? I would say not. Generally it is the case with WSs that BOTH parties were more or less satsified while ignorant until one of them got a taste of the forbidden fruit and only THEN do they say..where have you been all my life beautifull?

He made a life long committment to LilSis with the understanding that LilSis would love and cherish him.

I would say that she has delivered in that promise.

She did not deliver the goods (from his POV).

He is comparing his marriage to his addiction..she can not deliver that reaction.

Does fog blow that out of porportion and make it worse than it was? Yes. But that does not mean that everything he says is false.

It means that his entire perception is skewed...and yes in a sense it does render it false.

What he thinks he needs and what he actually needs have a large gulf between them.

Some betrayals are worse than others. It is still a betrayal. (Thats why in the legal system, there are DEGREEs of crimes).

I disagree with assigning the term betrayal to anything that was not willfull and treacherous. You don't accidentally betray someone by ignorance or mishap.

I have a huge problem with the constant use of "Fog" to allow BSes to exonerate the BS's contributions to the downfall of the marriage and disrespect the WS. To dismiss LilSis' WH's point of view does not help her marriage.

I disagree. While he is an addict every word that comes out of his mouth is diarrhea, as were the thoughts that preceded them. LS is completely exonerated in any contribution to the affair. Her marraige was NOT an unhappy or neglectfull one. The man was seduced, failed to resist and got pulled d*ck first into an emotional entanglement.

For recovery to happen, the BS must accept responsibility for the damage caused by the BS.

I heartily disagree with this approach. It delivers an entitled WS not a remorsefull one.

Nothing she did or failed to do had jack to do with his temptation or seduction. that responsibility lands squarely on his own shoulders.

Her husband is telling her how he was hurt and she needs to "get" that - just as he will need to "get" the pain he caused her.

He didn't have an affair because he was hurt. He had an affair because he was weak.

It goes both ways.

I think that this is quite possibly one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard suggested. It absolutely does NOT go both ways. They can discuss changes and invest in new tools to create a more satisfying marriage. They can rearrange priorities to more closely model the ideal rather than ignorantly allow other things to interfere but where the rubber meets the road NO amount of satisfaction is going to keep him from lying and seeking MORE than she can provide when it serves itself on a platter except the ONE thing he lacked in his very average not remotely horrible or hurtfull or abusive marriage and that is personal integrity.

He is GOING to be tempted...hurt...let down...disappointed...attracted to other people...deal with consistently unmet needs or perceived needs...change directions at least one hundred more times...and you know what? He is just going to have to get over it.

Then he might feel resentfull and he can get over that too.

He is going to have to take RESPONSIBILITY for HIMSELF and stop waiting for someone ELSE to make it all better for him or to remove the temptation.

There will always be some oily tongued flatterer in the wings waiting for the opportunity to get whatever gain she thinks can be gotten from him.


These are recovery issues.

Personally I don't argue with crazy people...it just agitates them.

I also don't fall headlong into their delusions or skewed perceptions.

I would look instead to WHAT he fears. He fears the loss of his dignity...he has confused it with his pride.

I think the bestest plan A thing to do is to allow him to struggle with his own rationalizations unhindered.

it's his fight and I say let him fight it...he will only resist attempts at help as manipulative in any case.

What she can do is speak the TRUTH and not support his drug addled wishfull thinking.

She can say "I am sorry that you felt disappointed or hurt when X" without agreeing with him that she has betrayed him. He WANTS her in that boat. He wants her to shoulder the responsibility for his feelings. After all that's how his affair works right? OW MAKES him feel so good. I bet herione is AWESOME. He HAS to do these things because his feelings are MAKING him.

There is no sense of autonomy in his drivel. It is all addict speak.

At the molecular level it is nothing more or less than a maturity crisis...before he was ever in the fog...before he was addicted a situation presented itself that required him to be mature, integral, and decisive.

Maybe it was a flash of leg and a smile laid thick with implication.

Maybe she looked too long into his eyes.

Maybe she told a joke with a lot of inuendo to see how he would react.

Maybe a thousand other possible stimulations that almost any person alive including me would find tempting or even arousing.

In that moment...that choice point...he CHOSE to step into the dark. Not because he was hurt or neglected but because he was TEMPTED. It looked like fun. It looked sexy. It felt hot and illicit. He thought he could just touch the darkness. He thought he could dabble and play with it. It swallowed him whole.

He has to come to terms with that choice and stop looking for someone to remove that burden.

By refusing to abuse, love bust, humiliate, appease, or excuse.


By demonstrating consistently ONLY what she brings to the table and then going dark she leaves him to do precisely this.


[/quote]

wow . . . Noodle, I wanna be you when I grow up.
Mulan

Noodle.... that was absolutely brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are my hero!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

noodle

you are very wise

I'm personally disturbed by the assumption that LilSis must take responsibility for X, Y and Z as failings in her role as a wife. I'm not aware that any of X, Y or Z were ever raised as problems prior to the A, only that LS has identified them as issues of her own, which she thinks may have been a problem.

Even if LS was the wife from h*ll, there is no way of knowing which, if any, of her perceived failings were actually a problem for her WH. For all we know, he yearns for her brisk competence and nursed a deep hatred for her failure to wax her legs for years. No-one knows. Whatever he says now is telling her - and us - absolutely nothing. For LS to adopt the position over something spat from the lips of an hormone-disturbed man desperate to avoid his own guilt, is just plain daft.

There is no way - absolutely no way - to know what ENs were or were not being met in this marriage until well into recovery, when WH's biorythms have calmed down to a level that allows him to think like a responsible grown-up and when he has let go of the planet-sized lump of entitlement that is pinning him to RT right now.

It's perfectly sensible for LS to acknowledge that there might be problems in their mutual conduct of the marriage, and that she is open to counselling and joint re-education, but to to start the process as a solo exercise based on personal insecurities and surmises is utterly pointless.

For LS to insulate herself from what he's telling her would be far more beneficial, IMO, than to run his words through a mass-spectrometer to 'glean' what his pressure points are. Right now, he will blame everything up to and including sun-spots for his own misery.

TA

Noodle.............you rock.

Marykat

this is what happends when Plan A or B for an active affair gets confused (on board discussion) with recovery issues[/i]

LilSis should listen to his complaints BECAUSE that helps her Plan A ... and later, if there is any validity to his complaints ... they are addressed in recovery

but in this case, the "complaint" that LilSis "BETRAYED" her vows ... came straight from the HORSES [censored] ~~~> le'TURD ... and should be given all due *ahem* .... respect <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> *vomit*

listen to the man ... but you did NOT betray your vows

Pep

Very well said Noodle...You hit the nail on the head.

As much as I have to say about a lot of this discussion, I will not...

Because the key is to NOT DETER..Sis from her PLAN A...

What can we do to keep her FOCUSED on THAT?

In order to do an effective PLAN A..RIGHT NOW..TODAY..she needs to LISTEN TO HER WH..PLAIN and SIMPLE..in order to get as much INFORMATION as she can to proceed with her efforts to BREAK UP HIS AFFAIR...and move on to RECOVERY...

This is HARD STUFF for her..and her WH is making moves in the RIGHT DIRECTION..

When she began PLAN A, he would not even come into the house..NOW he is sharing his FEELINGS with her..FOGGY FEELINGS or whatever..and she definitely SHOULD LISTEN...

We are trying to help her RECOVER her marriage..not to help her to set her WAYWARD HUSBAND STRAIGHT ON THE FACTS...at this point...

Sis..please don't get bogged down by this...

Carry on with LG'S RECOMMENDATIONS to you..

Out of the mouth of a FWH....

I'll just say..for ME..it's a matter of ANDs..I agree with BR AND Noodle...

My H most definitely was HURT AND REJECTED by me a zillion times prior to his affair... but his CHOICE to deal with this by having an affair was WRONG and he is definitely REMORSEFUL about that CHOICE..I see his PAIN about this at least once a week if not DAILY at times..

IT DOES GO BOTH WAYS...IMO...

Noodle,
you have every right to your point of view.

however, that is not even close to how a WS comes to recovery, therefore it is really important that Lilsis listen to Bramblerose. She is one of the wisest ladies I've ever seen posting here.

Empathy and willingness not to demonize the WS will attract him back. Not the "thats all BS and stop making excuses" attitude.

Stay on track LS.