LS,

I said it before and I'll say it again.

I really really think you would benefit from keeping a log/journal/collection of letters.

These thoguhts NEED a place to be safely expressed and there MAY very well come a time when it would be appropriate or beneficial for H to read them and digest at his own pace.

Everything you just wrote was COMPLETELY justified and heartfelt...I would definitely unload it in your pensieve [shout out to harry potter fans] and not allow it to consume you.

Maybe you need some time...are you giving any thought to having a third party there tonight to receive the kids so that you don't have to interact w/him tonight? It seems like you are too raw right now. I think TIME can help dissipate the anger as an alternative to "releasing" it ...

I feel like i have been on both sides, to some degree.
I was the BS, yet
our (mine and H) situation is unique in some ways.....to the best of my knowledge (can't say i am 100% certain) there was never a specific OW and he always intended to stay married to me.....now, If there had been a scheming ho like RT in our life...who knows??

in any case..I was the one who considered leaving the marriage.

No too long ago there was turn around in our marriage...H was transferred and moved w/ his job.....i was not sure i wanted to move w/ him.....we were estranged...i had recently uncovered more lies....the kids didn't want to move ...it felt like the perfect opportunity to start clean for me.
and i shut down when it came to my H.
i turned cold and did my best to stay that way.......I was distancing myself from him....trying to forget what we once shared....trying desperately NOT to be reminded of it so I could go through w/ my own plans.
He tried his darndest to plan A...and i held onto every rotten lie he ever told to me to justify why i shouldn't move w/ him.
when I was in that place, I didn't love or feel much empathy for anyone.

Hey LS....
early yesterday you mentioned the possiblity that WH may have already broken things off w/ RT.
Did something in the later conversation confirm that the Affair is still going strong?

Oh Sis! {{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}

I have read thru so many pages this morning as you've had quite a journey in less than a day. But, here you are - Battered, but INTACT, THINKING, FEELING, WORKING on yourself and your plan.

This shows your Absolutely AMAZING Strength!! God is with you!!

I can't give much advice as the others have, but I have to say how much I agree with Mimi. I believe VERY much in entering Plan B from an UP note, not from a difficult momement that will leave him with a vision of the "old Sis" that can help him justify his decisions.

A humble apology, like his previously, will do YOU good in the long run. You will feel better for having done it; no matter the ultimate outcome.

Take time. Remember to breath in and out. Gather your strength. Draw from here and from God. You will know at the right time what to do next. It will settle into your heart. Just give yourself the time to let that happen.

Know we are all cheering for you!

Would you mind telling us exactly what he said that set you off? We might be able to help you better if we knew.

Hang in there.
Mulan

lilsis

i don't post to you often because i really don't have anything to add to the wise advice that you've been getting

however, your situation is now reminding me much of mine

i did a really good plan A (in my opinion anyway) for a really long time

like you, i believed that i could just say the right things, to MAKE HIM SEE that i have changed and things could be better.....that i just didn't understand his emotional needs and now that i did, i KNOW we could be happy

i also couldn't understand what everyone else saw.... the "WS" instead of my H

(i still "see" my H but now accept and try to understand that his words and actions are no different than any other addicted WS)

although i felt that i could continue my plan A, it was clear to others, including Jennifer Harley, that it was just becomming too painful for me and i was in danger of undoing the good i had done. of letting him believe that it had all been an act and that "this" instead of my plan A behavior was what it would be like if we reconciled

My h was just being too cruel and i began REACTING because i was too worn down from day after day of plan Aing and day after day of being hurt and hiding my feelings...day after day of giving and never getting the response i wanted so badly

one day having such hope from what he said or did and the next day having all of my hope destroyed

in my opinion, this is where you seem to be

i believe in my heart that the better you plan A, the more energy and love you give to it and the longer you do it...

the harder it hits when you just can't do it anymore

i have HIGE regrets that just before i gave my H my plan B letter, we had arguments about the separation agreement we were creating. even though they were small and we got back to "good" terms quickly, so that we could continue working on the agreement, i still wish i could have given him the letter with only good impressions in his mind

even more awful is that, after i started plan B, we continued minimal e-mail contact only about the house repairs he agreed to make and our dogs

BIG mistake, he actually tried to steal one of the dogs and the only way that i could get him to return him was to e-mail him i would contact my lawyer and the police

yeah....THAT really left some "good impressions"

and until i finally changed my numbers, he was calling and ranting like a mad man about the house repairs and spewing words of hate and anger...thankfully i responded only with e-mails and i didn't LB

i am now in a very dark plan B

but i still wish that i had ended my plan A differently..... i question if i undid all of my hard work

and I can't go back and change it

TAKE A BREAK FROM THIS lilsis

PLAN "R"

so you can find the strength to continue your plan A WITHOUT LOVE BUSTING then do it.....so that you have no regrets

this IS NOT the last impression that you want him to have

apologize and let him know that you are hurting because you love him so much and being apart is painful however, you shouldn't have acted the way you did.

period

(DON'T say you are angry or frustrated OR "trying to make him see/feel/do....anything!")

then MOVE PAST IT, like it didn't happen, if he will let you

maybe you can just be around him with the kids in the same room so that it is easier to get through until you have more strength

if you can do this, for awhile, you need to plan A again like crazy

and have a plan, the next time you are getting to this point.....it's plan "B" time

try to make this better sis...but don't make it worse

if you can't "plan A" right now..... then plan "stay away" until you can

lilsis,
it takes so much strength and willpower and most of all devotion and LOVE to do what you have so far

I believe you can find the strength to hold on for just a little while so you can fill him with good memories before plan B

i'm praying for you

Sis,

I hope you truly know how much your thread helps everyone here. Not just current BS's but even us FBS's. B/c I am trying to understand your WH I have been able to ask my FWH more questions about his A and what he was thinking and feeling at the time. This is something we've struggled with for the past 9 months since recovery started. We have yet to really open up and freely talk about the A and all of the pain that surrounded it. Anyway, on to my point.

You asked if the WS feels any pain. My FWH told me yesterday that he did. There were many times he would cry when he left our house to go back to his Apt. or when he was alone in his apt. he would break down. He knew what he was doing was wrong but he felt like he was in too deep, and he didn't know how to get out. You need to keep showing your WH that there is a way out.

Do not end your plan A on this note Sis. Yesterday can be repaired. It is not time for plan B.

SCHOOLBUS READ THIS!!

I finally got up the nerve to call WH to apologize. He answered (I thought maybe he wouldn't) and asked how I was doing. He was pleasant and friendly sounding....I was expecting cold and hard. I said I was doing okay, and that I wanted to apologize.

Right away, again, in a conversational way, he says, "This is what I liken it to. Remember that scene in Saving Private Ryan, towards the end, when the German and the American are in hand-to-hand combat in the steeple of this church? The German ends up laying on top of the American and he's shoving his bayonet into the American's heart and whispering 'shh, shh, shh' in the American's ear as he's dying."

"Yeah, I totally remember that scene. How does that relate to us?"

"Well, it's like I'm the German."

(I'm practically speechless) "So...we're like enemies?"

"No, no, no, no. It's like I'm stabbing you in the heart, and you are fighting for your life."

I was totally blindsided by this one.

I wasn't even expecting him to speak to me, let alone confess something like THAT. WTF???? I totally need someone with some psychological insight to interpret that.

We went on to have quite a normal conversation about the weather, his dad's sailboat, etc. Very friendly. I invited him for soup and he declined. (thanks for the offer but no thanks) I talked to each of the boys, who gave the phone back to WH. I said love you, bye.

I immediately called MIL and we talked for almost an hour...psychoanalyzing the whole thing. How he identifies me with the American/good guy, and himself with he German/bad guy. The fact that the American dies, how cold and cruel it is, how when you watch the movie you are WISHING this guy doesn't die because you've grown to like him throughout the movie...etc.... We were finding all sorts of subtexts that could be going on with it. RICH with symbolism. (to us, anyway, probably not to WH, at least consciously)

At its most superficial, I would guess that WH is relating it to yesterday. Me standing there in tears, and he's holding me, essentially saying shh, shh, shh. Me fighting, him killing. But a quiet death.

?????

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Holy crow!!!

I hope Schoolbus pops on today.

I take it he accepted your apology quite easily since he seems to understand what his cruel behavior IS doing to you.

Wow!

~ Marsh

He didn't even comment on my apology, it was almost like he was eager to tell me about this revelation about the movie. I repeated "I'm sorry" later to make sure he heard it, but it really didn't seem to phase him...

He went right on to talk about everyday things...

Amazing stuff!

He probably was calling you last night to check up on you.

He didn't need an apology from you...your behavior was UNDERSTANDABLE to him.

Nothing was lost yesterday...and perhaps something was gained!

~ Marsh

SIS.....wow.....


The most important thing I see in this is that he does not see you as an enemy.

The next most important thing I want to ask you to do is send the letter, but NOT as a Plan B letter. I would send it as soon as I could. And I do agree with MEDC, change as many of the "I"s to "we"s, as appropriate, (or "us")...


I say this because what I see in this communication isn't likely what most others would see (so, what's new about this?).

You are not the enemy. He is "bad", you are "good". And in the movie, everyone wishes the German wouldn't kill the American, wishes somehow the American would succeed, stay alive, turn the tables, etc.

He needs YOU to do that. But to save HIM from being the German. He felt like he was killing you - so YES - he feels your pain. This statement to you is so revealing of his thoughts - he must have spent hours on this, and the visual here for him is enormous. He literally sees you bleeding and dying, and himself as killing you but the whole time as trying to comfort you at the same moment - TALK ABOUT CONFLICTED.

Can you now say that your Plan A has had NO effect? Truly? Please step back to page 1 and ask yourself that for your own truth. Maybe a little "Plan Reality" yesterday didn't hurt you as much as you first thought. From where I sit, he spent lots of time thinking about your interaction and his own BLAME in the world - LilSis, DS, IL world - all of it. And he comes up pretty hard on himself in the end, as the German. Wow. Reality there, I see.


He tried to tell you that coming home would be hard for him, by saying, "It isn't that simple." He has said this before. You need to tell him that it IS as simple as coming home, and starting over. It just IS. That what he is doing NOW is actually harder, in the long run - because of everything in your letter. And after what you did yesterday, he CALLED YOU - not for any other reason than to see if YOU WERE OKAY.

He did not have to do that. But he did. Because HE DOES CARE, and he cannot escape that.

And he knows it.

I personally would send the letter, and maybe add my apology in there somewhere. (But for legal purposes, DON'T mention hitting him!)

And then, I would pull back a little on Plan A. Like you said, it doesn't "feel" right. And he will feel that too - so don't do what isn't real. It will regain itself in it's own time.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that something is changing.

Also, why do you think something may have happened with the two of them? I wondered if RT was driving by to try to "catch him" with YOU>>>>>>>> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

SB

Good timing that you were on, SB. Thank you, thank you!! I knew you would have some really good insight.

I'll pull up the letter and look at it again.

My ONLY thought about anything between RT and WH had to do with the fact that he's been around here quite a bit (shoveling, tires, picking up kid stuff) and it seems like RT would have something to say about that...

So no good intel or anything...

Sis,

I think he's around because he is considering a return. He is trying to figure out if it's for real or not. How much damage repair there is to do. How much pain he has to mend. If he could do it or not, if he could leave her or not, much of what he did before he left you.....for her.....

Which is why I think she drove by the other day. I wonder if she is suspicious, and was trying to call him and he wasn't answering her.......because he knew you were coming, and how the he// would he handle that.....or maybe he was supposed to be somewhere early but you messed that up.....

Things are just caving in on him. He is very conflicted, and cannot figure out what he's doing. You are the lighthouse, and he knows that. Only it is very HARD to make the RIGHT choice when you've been so bad, been the German, that EVERYONE HATES. Even your own mom hates you and is rooting against you. The German. How can you resurrect yourself from that????????

Plan A, that's how.

You need a few more shots there, LilSis. If you can muster another cannonball over the bow, then fire it. Before you go dark.

SB

I think his whole "movie story" speaks volumes. I can tell you that my ex, to this day, never looked at me as the good guy. His whole thought is that the affair "just happened", and he and OW were just as much victims as I was.

I think things are very promising. But don't get your hopes up too high, because then you may be disappointed.

BTDT.

SB: I pulled out the letter, but I'm not so sure of all the places where I should switch from I to us and so forth. ???

Here's my latest version. I had made a few changes, but MEDC was going off in a different direction than I was....
Dear WH:

I want you to know that I believe in us. And I want you to know why.

From the moment I first met you…or maybe from the first ride up the chair lift together…I knew you were different. You were like no one I had ever met before. You were everything I ever dreamed of in a partner: someone I could talk to, someone I could relate to, someone whose ideals and values matched mine, someone who was intelligent, caring, introspective, and thoughtful, someone I would want to see across the coffee table after fifty years.

I knew after that first weekend that you were the man that I would marry. You were the one for me. My kindred spirit. I had no doubt. I believed with all my heart in us. And I was right.

Fast forward fourteen years. That belief has been shaken to its very foundation, but—try as we both might—it could not be destroyed. After everything, all of it, the ugliness, the hurt, I have discovered that I still believe in us; more deeply than before. I also know that you do not share that belief right now. My belief is strong enough to withstand your doubt. Withstanding doubt is the definition of belief: faith, conviction, determination, a certainty about what is true in the face of disbelief.

I know who you are at your core. And because I know you that well, I trust you with my very life. I trust you with my heart and soul, with the lives of our children, with our future. I trust you now more than I did on our wedding day, because that belief has been tested to its very limits, and I have not lost it. I will never believe that you will let me down…not in the end.

Because I believe in you and trust you, I know that ultimately your core will not be compromised. You are who you are. Three years of poor choices, three years of trying to deny your values, your convictions, your ideals, three years of attempting to lock them up and remove them from yourself…it simply cannot be done. I know your core, even if you are blinded to it right now.

In a way, I have been where you are now. I have been rejected, cast out, marginalized, stripped down, scrutinized, imprisoned. I was literally and figuratively at the very deepest, darkest bottom. I could go no lower.

But I could not be defeated. Something in me, something at my core…ultimately, it would not let me curl up and die and become hard, bitter, angry, and cold. My core would not let me quit, it would not let me give up on myself, on who I am. So from that very deepest, darkest bottom, I finally began to scratch and claw my way out. My own grit and determination and belief in myself—and with the love and care of countless people helping me and supporting me—I slowly began to emerge. I didn’t recognize any of it at the time. Only now, looking back at my journey, do I see how it unfolded.

You can do this too. I know it. I believe it. If I can reclaim my SELF from that ugly place, you certainly can. It is a different twist on the same story. Yes, you will need grit and determination, lots of it. You will absolutely have the love and care of countless people helping you and supporting you, especially me. You can do it. You will do it. I know it, because I know you, I trust you, I believe in you. I love you.

I promised you that I would stand by you always. I promised to love you and care for you and keep you in good times and in bad. I’m quite sure this qualifies as a bad time, but I won’t let this defeat us or make me turn my back on us. I am not a quitter. I have fight and grit and determination. I can withstand your disbelief, I can withstand your anger and resentment, I can withstand the rejection. Because I know, from the bottom of my heart, that is NOT who you are.

I remember who you are. For now, I will remember for the both of us.

Love always,

The "remember who you are" is something that his dad always used to say to him and he would repeat to our boys.

The blame issue here is also interesting, don't you think? For the past few interactions, he seems to have finally accepted that HE is at fault for the affair - not LilSis. His comment that she did "nothing" to deserve it, his attempts to console her, his recognition that she is fighting for the marriage, all of this, speaks to me that he is somehow understanding the roles here.

Odd, for a WS. Given that he purports to be committed to leaving, these fly against his stated intentions. Speaks to his conflicts.

There are cracks here that we just cannot account for - I wish we had some intel on the A, one of RT's friends, something. Much of his communication seems strange to me, so I say I think something is going on. I need to think of what this may be, but I don't want to speculate until I hear what he says. Again, he will likely give Sis a clue in what he says.

He did say he didn't want to hurt Sis "again". Hmmm. Lots of ways to look at that one. I have been chewing on this one, but he needs to say more in this area for me to analyze.

Sis, your "mask" comment goes along with the FWS comments about what they were SAYING and what they were THINKING. Remember, they are trying very hard to pretend to follow through with one course of action, but are actually thinking about another. In this case, your subconscious may have picked this up - you described his face as a "mask", probably for a reason. He was likely doing his very best to hide his true thoughts and feelings - wanting to respond one way, but desperately clinging to another course of action......thus the "mask". It is extremely difficult for the average person to say one thing but mean another, without doing something in the way of body language to tip it off to the listener. We overcorrect or overcontrol our facial expressions, oddly position our bodies, or use gestures with too much or too little flair, for example. Things just seem "off" to the listener, and we walk away thinking, "hmmm, he SAID this, but he just didn't seem to have his heart in it".

It is very often those subtle cues we pick up on that lead us to the core of the truth in a communication event. His tears, in the end, belied the mask. His conflict revealed to you.

I agree that he is on the fence, but how much in either yard? Who knows. Conflicted people waffle moment to moment. You are seeing him try to fight you off at one moment, console you the next, and be your friend another. (Having had teenage daughters, I can SO relate <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) But, SH says conflict is better than feeling NOTHING, which is where we started, right?

Hang in there. You did not mess up.

Sis,

It is a beautiful letter.

I wouldn't hesitate to say that to my husband.

I wouldn't hesitate to stand and fight.

And to believe for him, because he needs you to do that. He asked you to do that. He needs to believe that it can BE simple enough to come home, that you have his back.

The letter says that.

I personally, would send it. Because the German doesn't want to kill the American. He believes he has no other choice. Plan A gives him the other choice.

SB

i would add

i am here for you. i forgive you. i know that we can get through this together and we can learn from the past and have an even better life together than we had before.

(just my opinion!)