PS

another plan A option is to say:

Why don't you ask DS11 why this is so important to him ?

then DROP IT and refuse to pick it back up

I HATE this ongoing debate..BUT I don't buy the WH vs H dichotomy. IMO, Sis' H is the WH until Recovery....

So, uppermost in her mind should be that ADMIRATION issue where her WH expects her to CRITICIZE his parenting..

Her PLAN A goal is to evidence her RESPECT of his PARENTING SKILLS and abilities...

I continue to have real difficulty in seeing the WH to be NORMAL whatsoever...

This does not fit with the MB point of view, IMO...

on this thread ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I always bow to Mimi

*bow*

and repeat
when in doubt
follow Mimi's lead

Pep

mimi, you're back! Did you read about yesterday's 11 minute conversation??

I'm thinking option A as well...dovetails with yesterday's talk. Reinforces it. If WH ASKS me for my opinion, and seems sincere, I'll be happy to share...respectfully of course.

Sometimes I do get glimpses of H (like when he held me as I cried about my dad). Mostly those glimpses are just enough to tear little rips in my heart...not enough to change my behavior or think of him as "less" wayward.

'Nuff said...let's not go there.

I haven't had time to read the 11 minute conversation..

Will do LATER..

Maybe it's just a play on words, but IMO if those GLIMPSES were REALLY your H, he would be back home after responding to your pain.

IMO, it was still the WH, influenced by her with some kind of justification in his mind for continuing with his A: "Sis is just trying to get my sympathy; she'll get over this without me"..See what I mean?

IMO, so what if GLIMPSES of your H are there..if this what you want to call them..he still left..he still continued with his affair..HE REMAINS A WH....

YUCK!!!!

I had to continue to see my H as WAYWARD despite those "glimpses' in order to learn to ACCEPT his waywardness and wickedness...

Otherwise, I would experience those "rips at the heart" that you speak of...

I was able to MAINTAIN MY FIGHT TO GET MY H BACK...

I told myself that HE WAS GONE....and belonged to HER....

This is what worked for me..not saying that it will also work for all others....

Maybe it's just in the way that I visualize this whole thing (I'm big into imagery to help me process stuff). I tend to think of H as encased in this block of ice, trapped, held hostage by WH, RT and A. He's there, but not able to break free.

Use ice, fog...whatever.

Plan A is my way to give H strength, sustinence, shine a light bright enough that the ice melts a little, give him little tools to chip away at the ice on his side.

Oh, that nasty old WH is STILL in charge...no question! But for me, I NEED TO BELIEVE that H is in there somewhere. If I didn't hold that belief--as I said yesterday--from the bottom of my soul--I couldn't fight. There wold be nothing to fight FOR. Because I don't want WH...not for a husband, not for a father to my children.

And when I say H...I don't mean my old "husband." I mean <his name>, his soul...the person he was and always will be at his CORE...the good and decent man that I so admired. I understand that my old H is gone, never to return. To that I say good riddance, because that M wasn't working for me, either, and besides, the old LilSis is gone, too!

Speaking JUST for myself, I don't know if I could ever get to the point where I wouldn't have those heart-rending moments. If I did, I think I would worry about myself. I suspect I'll always be vulnerable to them, and I know it does get me down sometimes, but I'm working on that...and on keeping my Irish up (look out, RT!).

As you said, this is MY experience, and will be different for others.

But onward...I believe this is just our unique perspectives on the same issue...not THAT far apart, really. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am a long time lurker and registered just to tell you that whether or not you divorce, it's better to go through the courts for child support.

My ex married again, and we were friendly. I let him send me checks directly for child support, and at first it worked well.

Then after he married the OW, she controlled the money. The checks started coming late, and it was always some drama.

The worst part, though, was their joint checking account, and seeing her name signed on the checks for his children...I'm sorry you're going through this, please think about it if you only have ten days.

If you reconcile, it will all be a moot point.

I LIKE and very much UNDERSTAND your MINDSET, Sis.

YOU and I are pretty much on the SAME PAGE.

As you say, ONWARD...

Later,

Mimi.....

ETA: I especially love your VISION OF A NEW H...

Sis,

My vindictive and child-protective side says that if I had to fight him on the Superbowl issue, I know EXACTLY what I would say to get him to watch, upstairs, in the attic with the boys.
I would very sarcastically ask him, "Well, what would you do IF you were his FATHER? Why don't you do THAT?"

But that is a big LB, and we don't go there in Plan A. That is actually more Plan F-U.

Sometimes your WH makes me want to bring out the crown I won for the 2006 Queen of Sarcasm Festival. LOL!

If he were to ask me about the Superbowl (but I don't think he will ask), I would be pretty straight with him, and add in a joke, maybe. "WH, I think DS11 is entering manhood, and just needs to bond with his dad. Let's face it - I'm not you, and boys need their fathers for stuff like this. My boobs just pretty much eliminate me as a candidate on this one. Sorry. Of course, it is your call. Game starts at 5:30, so let me know either way."


You could also make him another offer, which might make everyone a little happier, and give WH somewhat of an out. Not that you necessarily want to, but might put him in the attic..... You could tell him the attic is open, and if WH wanted to split the difference, he could come over with the boys, and make them a deal to leave at halftime. You can make yourself scarce.

Just an idea.

I don't see him making a deal, however. I think there's something else he's committed to tonight, and he is pi$$ed off about it - about the whole situation, matter of fact, his having to choose, etc. It's getting to him.

Good job on the support phone call. The technique of silence puts the talking pressure on HIM - and he may say some things that he otherwise would keep protected from you. You might want to consider waiting him out on some of the conversations again in the future - it seemed to soften him, and forced him to think about what he's saying, and its impact. Also, I think the reality of the FOC and support order has hit him - he may be thinking about RT, the money, and how in heaven's name he is going to keep up with what he now knows to be her not-so-thrifty spending habits.

Yes, Pep quotes me well. I think there's something going on in turd-land.

I just wish I could SEE him talk to you. Argh.

SB

If you COULD see, what would you look for?

(I couldn't see him yesterday, either...being on the phone)

I left a VM about a half hour ago, asking if he'd come snow blow before my neighbor did it for me a second day in a row...and if he could let me know about his "plans for the day."

In the meantime, my neighbor came and blew my driveway...again. I've asked his wife to tell him not to, but you know how some people are...very very kind!

Sis,

If I could see him, I would have to observe a number of aspects of his communication:

Pragmatics - these are the nonverbal aspects, and his choice of stance, proximity, facial and hand gestures, etc. There's so much here that I can "smell", and being in the room with someone helps me a lot! His tone of voice, specific ways he would direct his attention and responding, distance in time between your statements and his responses. How he initiates a topic with you, or switches it - I would really like to watch this one, especially.

Prosody - I'd like to be able to listen to how he uses his voice, and the cadence of some of the things he says. Also, some of the pauses in his sentences and how he uses them (this interacts with the pragmatics - gets somewhat technical here).

I'm not so much into reading the "body language" stuff like that lady on Bill O'Reilly's show. There's a lot of that that is very true and scientific, other stuff that leans into the fortune telling realm when you buy a book at K-Mart about it, or Google it. You have to be very careful. but I would like to see how he is placing himself, and his changes in his placement during critical intervals in conversations. Just makes so much difference when the whole package is there.

I do have a question, though. During all of this, has he said he does NOT love you, or is it the ILYBNILWY?

Initially, it was ILYBNILWY. About a month or two after d-day, when we were having a particularly gruesome fight, and I broke down (literally in a heap), he told me--weeping--that he loved me to his "core."

Huh??

I brought this statement up to him later, and he told me coldly that he does not love me. And that has been his stance since. Nope, not a bit. But "we'll always have a connection."

However, he still maintains that our wedding day was the happiest day of his life.

Ouch, ouch, ouch.

******
In terms of the "topic changing"....it's interesting that you mention that, because in our sit-down convo a week or so ago "about the boys," he switched topics almost midstream a couple of times. We would be discussing the boys and their states of mind, and then suddenly it's about how I am "confusing" them.

I have no idea if that's what you mean, but it left me with the feeling of whiplash.

SB:

I think you are hitting on ST that I find to be important. If Sis' H is anything like my H, whose primary EN is ADMIRATION, he can't tolerate ANY SARCASM or ANY SENSE OF HER BEING CONDESCENDING to him. Even now, my H who is far from wayward and very much IN LOVE with me, almost WINCES IN PAIN if I'm the least bit SARCASTIC or SEEM to be DIRECTING OR TELLING HIM what I THINK IS BEST FOR HIM to do. I think he's INSECURE but some would say that lots of men are like him. Georgia on the forum used to tell me that...so the "I think DS11 is entering manhood" is the type of COMMUNICATION that I have stopped saying, at Steve Harley's advice to me. I used to be such a self-righteous know-it-all and H would be thinking, if not saying: "You think I'm not SMART ENOUGH to know that?"



Agreed. OW take any excuse to plan a CELEBRATION to recreate the GET HIGH/FUN aspects of the affair...this is the PERFECT NIGHT of JUSTIFICATION for those with any type of ADDICTION...

Sis,

Sounds like he's trying to convince himself that he didn't love you - that's why the conflicting statements. "Always have a connection" is code for "love", but somehow stifled. He uses this terminology to tell RT that he feels that way toward you - it is SAFE to say you "will always have a connection", but not SAFE to say he loves you, get it? Cognitively, if he's leaving you, then he has to move to the "connection" feeling, and would have to say that. Love, however, is still the basic emotion under there. The ember burns.

Topic changing: I see this sometimes in situations where a person cannot handle the topic at hand, either emotionally or has not reasoned through it, or both. I'm not surprised that you saw this behavior. He may have seen the conversation going into "conflicted" territory, and just couldn't deal with what that meant - either the reality of what must happen if the divorce goes through, the reality of what his A is doing, the reality of his living somewhere else, etc. Could be any number of things. In any case, the topic change is likely based in the need to reroute to a safer topic, unconflicted territory, or an area where he feels like he's thought things through more completely. The fact that you experienced it as whiplash is very telling - he shifts without warning.

I also thought it was interesting in your description of his saying "I'm fine" to his dad on the phone, out of context. Strikes me as WH reading things underneath what FIL was saying - everyone does this (not just me!) - and I would just love to know exactly what FIL had said at the moment that WH blurted out "I'm fine". Now THAT would be an interesting conversation to overhear.

I'm such a voyeur. Unashamedly so! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> My husband will just shake his head when I people-watch. I come by it honestly, though. My mother just loves to sit in the mall and make up stories about the people walking by. Now, I sit with her, watch strangers, and we laugh. Good times, with an 80 year old woman.

I agree with mimi's assessment of my WH as being defensive with any sarcasm, etc...I am absolutely not going to vary from my current course.

Which is: I need to be loving; to be open; to speak my truth with kindness and respect; to trust and believe. I need to let go...for myself, my own sanity, as well as for WH to grow. I need to let him be who he is, and I need to accept him. I'm getting that, mimi, I really am. I'm feeling it.

I know this doesn't make sense, because he's a WH, but what I am SHOWING him--at all times--is the LilSis he will get when he chooses to come home (she says with confidence that she doesn't really feel). I am a different LilSis than the one he knew, so I am introducing him to me, and--as expected--getting nothing in return. It is NOT easy. My taker has to be satisfied...for the time being...with bubble baths, chocolate and good books. My giver's working overtime, but she'll get a HUMOUNGOUS paycheck later as a reward. (again with the confidence)

I REALLY feel that this is the way...this is the strategy...that will work with MY PARTICULAR WH. Kindness, openness, trust...making myself completely vulnerable...but by choice. I am choosing to do this, knowing that it might not affect him at all. But I feel strongly that if ANYTHING can work, this is the only thing that will. And I MUST try.

Whose sig line says something about any attempt to educate the WH will fall on deaf ears? Since there is no point in pointing out WH's poor choices to him, AND it can only distance him from me further, driving him to the safety and security of RT, DON'T DO IT.

So I am going to trust WH to do the right thing regarding the SuperBowl. That said, he probably will let the boys down. And he'll FEEL that...but my rubbing his nose in it won't make him feel it any more. I'll just accept it.

And if he does NOT let them down, and misses out on time with RT, then what? Honestly, he'll probably be crabby with the boys...won't have any fun...they'll feel his resentment and feel wounded...and WH will resent me because I didn't "discourage" DS11 from wanting to spend time with his dad. I'll have to accept that, too.

I'm letting it go. It's out of my hands and what will be will be. WH gets to choose. Either way, it ain't gonna be pretty tonight. Sigh.

Yeah, no kidding. FIL is REALLY, REALLY hard to read. He speaks very slowly, but for a LOOONG time, as if he's going round and round before he finally makes a point...so long that I usually miss the point entirely.

And he forever hedges.."that's not the word I want to use but you know what I mean."

WH used to get so impatient with his dad's conversational style.

You'd have a field day with FIL and WH talking!

And SB, we're all so glad that you have these voyeuristic tendancies!

LilSis:

Last time here. Good luck with your Sitch.

Will he or will he not for the Superbowl?

You can only wait and see. The boys have been there all weekend and have had the opportunity to work him for a decision.

Might he be crabby if he stays? Yes. But, he choose to be there. And that is a victory. And if he doesn't show. Then he knows why.

Stay with your plan and your mantra.

You have gotten some great advice around here. I really believe that you H will be back soon.

LG

LG: Did I offend? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

No go on the SB.

WH just called, he'll have the boys home in 20 minutes, and if I need help digging out, he can assist at that time. I told him the neighbor already took care of that.

"So you won't be watching the Superbowl with them," I ask.
"They never brought it up again," he replies.
"Okay. See you later."

Too bad. I assumed DS11 would be pushing heavy. Watching with his dad was his plan all week. He wanted mini-pizzas, etc.

Grrrr....alien WH jacka$$.

I did just call him back...got VM, of course, even though we spoke 2 minutes ago. Asked him to pick up a gallon of milk "on his way home." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LS:

By no means.

LG