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High Five Mel! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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asking for help=good
pretending to be helpless=bad
I think that distinction is what's been so elusive to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> you are one smart Plan A-er which is why you will get tons of attention on MB ... you listen, you take it all in, then you process to make it work for you what a breath of fresh air !!!! Pep
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Shows that I'm not a lazy slacker who needs WH to do EVERYTHING for me; Just wondering, Sis... Has it been an issue to you for your H to do things for you? Are you concerned about appearing lazy? It just seems like you are somewhat anxious about this..because we haven't suggested for you to not be able to do EVERYTHING... But there is a need for him to FEEL MANLY..to do things for you that a MAN does for his WOMAN... There needs to be an element of sincerity in everything I ask of him, Don't take this as criticism because I think you are doing EXCELLENT..but again with the MINDSET... If you stay too true to yourself, you are not CHANGING... You can SINCERELY CHANGE....CHANGE with a CAPITOL C will FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE TO YOU...You will feel like you are not being yourself because you are DIFFERENT... You have to BELIEVE in the CHANGES and the NECESSITY for you to MAKE these CHANGES... Do you believe in the need for you to change in these areas..to become more open to relying on your H to help you.. The key is for you TWO to work as a TEAM..not as SELF-SUFFICIENT INDIVIDUALS..you relying on him for HELP on what HE is good at doing..and HE relying on YOU for HELP... Although the OW is NOT COMPLETELY HONEST..SHE IS MEETING HIS NEEDS...and he experiences her as being sincere.... ETA: Mel said much of this in her own way..in her post..I hadn't read Mel's post beforehand...
Last edited by mimi1254; 12/25/06 10:56 PM.
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I do not have to be Superwoman. I think this is key with you and me and in our marriages. I thought BEING SUPERWOMAN was a good thing that my H found to be ATTRACTIVE... What he found ATTRACTIVE and finds ATTRACTIVE are the parts of me that led him to fall in love with me 30 plus years ago..when I was 18 and did not have the HIGH MANAGEMENT skills I have now... So your H does want YOU as I said before..the YOU that made him feel like a MAN..the YOU that made him want to be YOUR HUSBAND..the YOU that made him want to take care of you..the MAN who would be willing to lay down his life for you..to DIE to protect you and his family.....yes, to DIE for you...it's anthropological..it's how God created man..Your H wants to FEEL LIKE A MAN and treat you like a WOMAN...there is nothing BAD or WRONG about that.... I made the mistake and... maybe you did, too..of not recognizing the value of MYSELF as a WOMAN to MY MAN... I gave more priority to other less essential and insignificant aspects of who I was to him... I forgot the BASICS...all he wanted was the BASICS...and not such a SUPERWOMAN... Make sense?
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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mimi:
I think I get exactly what you are saying. I think that's where my good/bad analogy comes in. I just needed to figure out how to make what I need to do to save my marriage (ask for help, accept help) fit with who I am (a competent woman).
I think I've JUST had that sort of a-ha moment realizing this whole experience has taught me just that. I am not an island. I can't control everything. I do not know everything. I can't take care of everyone...even myself, sometimes. I can ask for help, and still be loved and appreciated. I don't earn love and appreciation by being everything to everyone. People love me, flaws and all.
In turn, I also realize that trying to control everything and know everything and take care of everyone and never make a mistake is one of the issues that stressed our M. Further, the ability to let go, to ask for help, to have faith IS very much a part of the new, improved LilSis.
That said, and now that I'm putting all those pieces together, then it becomes clear to me that being vulnerable, needing help, making mistakes--heck, being HUMAN??--is EXACTLY what I need to show WH. I am a real human, capable of REAL love. It's all just about honesty...no more artifice, no more pretending that I've got everything under control. He didn't want that, never wanted that!! He wanted me to be more easygoing, less anal about the house being clean, less rigid about life.
So....why should I worry about appearing "lazy"--that word is OLD LilSis talking. New LilSis would say, "Hey, can you help me out? I love you and appreciate you and I need you. Just you. Heck yeah, I can do it on my own, but you can do it better, and I love for you to do it for me. If you want, I'll hang out and keep you company while you do it, or I'll make you some cookies in return, but you know, I'm darn tired of keeping all these balls up in the air, so I'm just going to let go."
That's a revelation for me...that's CHANGE.
This was the same dilemma that we had on the whole suggestive, sexualized behavior thingie if you recall...I needed to realize that a change in BEHAVIOR does not change the essential ME. Once I HAD that, I could think of all kinds of ways to incorporate that into who I am and how I present myself to WH. Now that I GET this, I think I can do the same...but really, it is the SAME issue.
It's just what we ask of WSs...the proof is in the pudding. If I can't walk the walk, it's just talk. My BEHAVIOR needs to demonstrate my new growth and understanding.
Wow. Insight at 12:30 a.m. How am I going to get to sleep now?
LilSis
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Just read your previous post. YES! When we met, I was much more laid back, easy-going, etc. Life, kids, work, dad's illness, house...all took a toll and I started to micromanage and take over everything without regard to WH's role. And I thought that made me more--appealing, attractive, necessary maybe? UGH!!
Really, I think felt I needed to earn his love, when I didn't. I had it. But I didn't think I was worthy unless I juggled more and more balls.
The issue about the competent wife is just what lousygolfer described a few days ago...exactly.
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***CRUD, JUST REALIZED I POSTED UNDER Mr.W's NAME...IT'S REALLY ME, Mrs.W...OOPS, SORRY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ***And what exactly is wrong with big boobs, fake tans, and dirty blonde hair? I'll admit it. Just jelly. A fake tan in Dec. in MI stands out like a sore thumb so we're all pasty, and I require highlights to maintain dirty blonde streaks in my brown hair. No comment on the boobs, so I guess you can figure it out. ...and you were trying to get us back on topic... HEY...I have to step in here and speak for us Southern chicks, that find themselves "servin' time" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> in Michigan...LOVE, LOVE, LOVE fake tans, big boobs, and in my case, honey blonde hair...And hey, sticking out like a sore thumb is what we big busted, blondes do best anyway...might as well work it with a tan too!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Seriously, LilSis, just wanted to jump on here and let you know what a stellar job that you are doing...Also to mention that if should ever need local help, just give Mr. W and I a shout...I'm not sure what part of Michigan that you are in, but we are in the 'burbs of Detroit-Oakland County...You are a wonderful role model here Sis...We are very much in your corner...The ladies here advising you are my very FAVES and the very BEST, IMO!!! God Bless You... Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> P.S. Email us anytime should you need any off board help! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by MrWondering; 12/26/06 03:42 AM.
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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YES! When we met, I was much more laid back, easy-going, etc. Life, kids, work, dad's illness, house...all took a toll and I started to micromanage and take over everything without regard to WH's role. And I thought that made me more--appealing, attractive, necessary maybe? UGH!!
Really, I think felt I needed to earn his love, when I didn't. I had it. But I didn't think I was worthy unless I juggled more and more balls He wants the WOMAN that he fell in love with...and you will FEEL HAPPY to find her again, too. You will not seem INSINCERE..as you fear..if you give in to becoming her again... On a personal level, you will feel like a load has been lifted off of your shoulders... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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LilSis, glad you are having such success. Just please be careful not to feel crushed if/when your WH does something to sabotage you, as he surely will. Enjoy the success you are having but please protect yourself emotionally against the inevitable defeats and setbacks. They are all part of the roller coaster.
As an aside on the "being needed" thing: Y'all have pointed out that WS often say "I didn't think you needed me," yet I have felt for years that my WH does not need *me* at all - certainly not when his girls from work are around and barely at any other time.
I am the one who feels completely and totally unnecessary in his life. Do you think it is an attribute of WS that *they* stop needing the BS?
Mulan
Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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Do you think it is an attribute of WS that *they* stop needing the BS? Yes...because the OP is meeting MOST if not all of the WS' ENs... The goal of PLAN A is for the BS to EVIDENCE the ABILITY and/or POTENTIAL to meet the ENs that were not being met PRIOR to the A... So, in Sis' case, she need to EVIDENCE her willingness to meet his need for ADMIRATION which comes from allowing him to take care of her..to do things for her... Not sure how this fits in your situation, Mulan... From HIS NEEDS/HER NEEDS on a man's need for ADMIRATION: A man expects-and needs-for his wife to be his most enthusiastic fan. He draws confidence from her support and usually can achieve far more from her encouragement...BEHIND EVERY MAN SHOULD BE AN ADMIRING WIFE...
Remember that a man really NEEDS appreciation. He thrives on it. Many men who come to me because they have had affairs stress the ADMIRATION of their lovers acted as a warm spring breeze in comparison to the arctic cold of their wives' criticism (OUCH)
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Thanks, Mulan. I am dreading those setbacks...I know they will come, and I know it will be hard. Just breathe deep and keep pushing forward, right? I know I can come here for help when the time comes.
I even have to look out for my fear sabatoging me. I am very aware of the damage that fear can do...the earlier post by Pep outlined it well, and we've talked about it before. Just this morning I had to banish the thought that WH is just being so normal because my behavior does not faze him at all...he's so secure in his relationship with OW that he sees my efforts as nothing more than a shameful display and he feels sorry for me. Ugh. Had to turn those thoughts off right away, and turned them instead to planning my next assault.
Might sound cheesy and self-righteous, but I decided to tell myself that this is war (which we've all acknowledged), and that I am a warrior for God; for what's right and good...battling against evil. I will not allow evil forces to destroy my H, that good and honorable man that I married.
Since I've never been much of a religious person (church-goer and spiritual, but not religious if you know what I mean), this is a real CHANGE (capital C). And a warrior?? Come on...I mentioned before that I am uncoordinated as can be, not at all athletic, and felt that I had to EARN love from my own husband. So that warrior imagery is FAR from how I've EVER seen myself. But my spirit is strong and getting stronger, and this is a battle fought with love, wits, and emotional endurance. Timidity and fear can no longer define me.
Okay...I'll keep you posted when I've come up with a plan for a new assault on A.
LS
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mimi:
OUCH is right...but if the shoe fits...
LS
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Might sound cheesy and self-righteous, but I decided to tell myself that this is war (which we've all acknowledged), and that I am a warrior for God; for what's right and good...battling against evil. I will not allow evil forces to destroy my H, that good and honorable man that I married. Of course, this doesn't sound cheesy or self-righteous... This fits with the belief system of many of us here... We even had a thread started here on the book THE ART OF WAR... YOU"VE GOT IT, SIS!!! ONWARD INTO BATTLE!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by mimi1254; 12/26/06 12:39 PM.
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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LilSis:
Just reading your thread and thought I would add my two cents. I think you are doing a really great job executing your plan.
I find your commitment to be inspirational and I want to add that you are awesome.
My husband has also identified one of his biggest ENs is ADMIRATION. I recognize that I was not doing that previously and would respond to a project that he was doing or an accomplishment at work as "whatever", "why didn't you do that before" This was a major LB and it has really helped tremendously to go out of my way to say how much I appreciate his efforts and recognize his hard work.
I will be doing this in the next few days as he is coming over to work on the mantle for the fireplace.
I know what you mean by fear sabotaging you. It is indeed paralyzing to feel the fear settling into you. I like your description of a warrior. You are indeed girding for battle every day and that is how I am going to look at it too.
Someone said this on this website not too long ago. You must act and not react because you have your eye on the end result, not on what is just happening right now.
Good Luck
Freya
Freya
BS(Me) 50
WS 48
Affair #1 Nov03-Jan06
DDay #1 April 1/06
False recovery April/06-Dec/06
Affair #2 with OW#2 ???-Dec/06(?)
DDay #2 Dec 17/06
WH kicked out of house Dec 17/06
NC letter sent Jan 3/07
Ongoing contact suspected
Last known contact by telephone Jan13/07
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Might sound cheesy and self-righteous, but I decided to tell myself that this is war (which we've all acknowledged), and that I am a warrior for God; for what's right and good...battling against evil. I will not allow evil forces to destroy my H, that good and honorable man that I married. You understand. This is not "cheesy," this is an accurate understanding of the situation.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yeap. Absolutely.
This IS war. War against the adultery that's threatening your marriage. And the Plans (A & B) are your arsenal of weapons. And we're (the MB army) here to support you in your tactics in implementing those plans and keeping you prop'd up so you stay focused and positive.
Adultery = Evil
Marriage = Good
Jo
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LilSis:
Perspective Time:
Your description of Christmas Eve: Excellent Job. You are laying bait for him, just like when you were dating. ANd you are creating conflict. Keep after it.
Too many ILY's? Did you say too many before? The important part is HIS response. Some WS are offended by this. Yours does not appear to be. Go with what feels right for you. AND as icky as it sounds, I never stopped saying ILY to my BS during my A. I wasn't being Honest with her, I know that now, But if you withheld ILY's from him in the past, using them now is a very powerful drug.
You are right about all the little touches at Christmas, and that the Men are "Baching" it. Why no one else followed up on this, I do not know, but here goes:
You do not want to make his new environment any better.
Let him do the boys laundry there. DO Not take it back to your place to do it. Let him own his choice.
Do not invite him over for a "Movie" That just makes it OK For him to slip over to OW after the boys fall asleep at FIL's (However, you could arrange with FIL or friend to watch the boys one night and you take your H away...But that is for later.) Remember, you are trying to disrupt the A.
Make him pay the Taxes/Insurance/mortgage as required. (Do you think he would take OW out less if he had less cash?) Pain=A Killer
Invite your FIL over to enjoy a meal with you and the boys. No H included. Do it on a night he works, and when your H asks why, say because you wanted too, and be cheerful. Get into a pattern. See if he tries to join in. Left the FIL take home the leftovers...
Any MB thoughts on this?
As for competent woman, yes, you are, but when he offers asssistance, TAKE IT! And tell him how great he was.
Does your FIL leave to be with MIL Soon? You stated that MIL is in the Southwest, Why isn't FIL?
If FIL is leaving, then the House will be really barren. (But more opportunity for time w/ OW!) (This could work to your advantage however!)
That's why I proposed you having him host the boys at your house. Even if you leave for a while. And you could have a good home cooked meal in the Fridge. (With extra sugar in the boys meals... So they stay up later!) And if he can not leave right on time, he gets to talk with you longer, making OW angry... These could be his nights with the kids, and once they are in bed, and when you return, He could go to FIL's, or maybe your couch?
Let me address this:
Just this morning I had to banish the thought that WH is just being so normal because my behavior does not faze him at all...he's so secure in his relationship with OW that he sees my efforts as nothing more than a shameful display and he feels sorry for me.
Never, ever, in 4.5 years did I ever feel "secure" in my R with OW. Remember, He is not in your house. OW is getting D'ed. And he hasn't moved in with her has he? How's that for security? He's filed the D papers, he can move on with her if he wanted to, but he can't. BECAUSE OF YOU!
LG
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Sis...
this usually comes up
DIVORCE
when WH tries to rush along the D ... you purposefully drag your feet and stall for time
if WH asks YOU to file or asks YOU for papers ... here is the standard MB response to that sort of request:
"I don't do divorce. I do marriage."
you make it difficult and time-consuming for HIM
he must do all the leg work himself
the WS usually does not want to LOOK LIKE the "bad guy" by filing for D
they often ask the BS to do this
do not fall for it
Pep
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I'll have to back through these one at at time, so it might be scattered. I'll start with Pep. He did file the papers, two months ago. I have not signed ANYTHING...I refuse to sign my name to any document that ends my marriage. Everything has been done through the attnys. However, I did have my attorney file a motion for support and custody, to protect myself and the boys. I don't really know how to stall it...it seems like it's sort of an autopilot thing. I did tell my attorney I wanted this to take as much time as possible. We haven't done any negotiations for settlement...so I guess that would be when I stall?? Related...LG's remarks about why WH hasn't moved in with OW. I BELIEVE her STBX required that their kids not be with WH during the pendancy of their divorce. So it may not be WH/OW's choice that they are not living together....we'll see after her D is final, which should be the next month or so. UNLESS there's some prohibition on her co-habitating while she gets spousal support (yes, she's getting spousal support--YUCK YUCK). Also, ILs have stated that when they return from AZ in April, WH should be outta there. No idea what his plans are then. We do have the verbal agreement that the boys are NOT around OW, and I will go to court on that if he violates it...he knows this. Might be tricky to have the boys for overnights if he's living there (not to mention horrible for the boys...the thought of it truly makes my stomach turn). Anyway, I do not believe for a minute that WH is not living there because of me or feelings for me. There are other issues in play. I believe MIL went to AZ early because she couldn't take it here anymore with all the drama and WH living in their home. She was very conflicted...loves her son but hates what he's done, aches for me and the boys and feels her son is self-destructing. Too much, and I think she needed to escape. I do plan to ask WH to do the "tucking in" thing at night with the boys. That is a wonderful idea; perfect. With the holidays and crazy schedules, I haven't had time to implement that one yet. I was thinking of asking him tonight, but more family is coming to town...we'll see. FIL will be leaving in about a week for AZ. OW is NOT NOT NOT welcome in ILs home whether they are in town or 2000 miles away...I don't know how they are going to enforce that while they are gone, but I guess it will put the onus on WH if he chooses to betray his parent's trust. It will be lonely and barren; however, my thinking is that ANY contact with me is disruptive to the A. Since I am Plan Aing, I am good, nice, supportive, fun, etc. If OW doesn't like that WH is with me, my HOPE is that she will be mean, crabby, and generally LBing. I'll look better by comparison. Thus if he ever did take me up on my movie invite (which I knew he wouldn't), it would just piss her off. It may even piss her off that I ASKED him to come over. That was part of my motivation for doing the Christmas Eve dinner. If she didn't like it that WH spent the evening with me, and gave him a hard time, too bad. Let her dig her own grave. Maybe she'll sink her claws in so deep that it begins to hurt. BTW, FIL wouldn't stand for WH going to OWs in the evening...assuming he would know about it...he's sort of a don't ask, don't tell guy. I don't believe I have been making life easy or comfortable for him. He does send the clothes back washed (although any mom will tell you it's getting them put away that's the hard part). WH is paying mortage/taxes/insurance as required by above mentioned support agreement. He may be feeling a little financial pinch, but not much as he is living at ILs rent free. Inviting FIL over for dinner before he leaves town is a great idea. Finally, I'm definately going to ask for help, and not be helpless, and take him up on his offers to help. I think I will keep up the ILYs, but keep them light and without expectation. I am also going to continue to ask him if he'd like to join the boys and I on outings...to the movies or whatever. Just continually remind him that he is wanted and has a place with us in our family. Again...so much of this has been a journey for me...discovering who I really am..the essential LilSis. It turns out I'm not who I thought I was...I'm better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> LS
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BTW....when I arrived home from my mom's, the cat was in, the tree was watered, AND the litter box had been cleaned out... I hadn't requested that last one; it's such an icky job, although one that he did when he lived here and I never THANKED him for. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I left a VM thanking him profusely, asking if he would show me the trick about plugging in the car, and telling him the boys and I were going to see a movie (gave the time) and told him the boys and I would all enjoy it very much if he joined us. C-LY-B. Click.
Never got a call back, but that's okay. I did what I needed to do.
I spoke to MIL, and she enthusiastically agreed to do all she could to help arrange "face time" between me and WH. (I think she rather enjoys the intrique, and she desperately wants the M to recover so it is SUCH a blessing to have her on my side.) This week, BIL#2 is visiting with his family (cousins the same age as the boys)...MIL is going to make sure that I am invited to all of the family gatherings that will occur while they are in town.
Keep you all posted...any other ideas? What about frequency of VMs to WH? Once a day if I don't see him? Or is that too frequent?
Thanks AGAIN, all.
(((((MBers!))))
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