Yes Lady...that IS going to be one of LilSis's husband biggest insecurities.

Getting WH to give up on the relationship because the reality is that he can't afford her and it's just makes financial sense to return to the marriage is doable. Eventually, when the going gets tough (especially in Plan B) your husband will do a pro/con list. Be sure he's aware of the pro's for you and con's for her WITHOUT directly attacking her.

How to do this:

Emphasize your frugilness

Emphasize OW's extravagence

Find out from OW's stbxh an approximate amount of money OW spends per year and casually mention it to WH...purposely not in a vindictive or catty tone. (btw...I did this exact thing as I was the attorney and OM was recently divorced, just out of bankruptcy, living with his parents and making very little...I told my wife an exaggerated figure that she had spent the last 3 years..knowing she would repeat it to OM)

This is a fine line. Waywards sometimes defend you to OW and defend OW when talking to you. They are caught in the middle and ANY discussion of OW is off-limits or is seen as cattiness. Any attack on the affair has to be done inocously. If you can get inside and discuss HER with him, get him to complain about HER to you...all the better. Get him keeping secrets from her with you.




Sidenote- one thing to be careful of that I think MEDC was hinting at....the harder you TRY, the more you do to save this yourself...builds up resentment. IF he withdraws big time...which OW may be strongly pushing for because she is feeling threatened by you...and he MUST maintain his addiction...you may feel empty for "given" so much. This could be a long, long fight and protecting your love bank for such possibility is important too. You are doing your Plan A for YOU...to be the best wife, mother and individual YOU can be. This is not all about saving your marriage...but saving YOU. The stronger YOU are the more attractive YOU are...thus, recovery is often a by-product of such self-work.

Mr. Wondering

Thank you, Mr. W, it is good to have the male perspective. However, I am very, very wary of even mentioning RT to WH. My present frame of mind is that she does not exist, she's a nothing, she's a passing "thing." I am being oh-so confident...he'll be back eventually, when he wakes up...breezy, light, flirtatious.

I strongly suspect that if I were to bring her up, if I were to bash her even in the most sideways way (her FAT ankles and MAN hands...he always loved my hands...I digress), his defenses would go up IMMEDIATELY and he would see all of my hard work as a ploy. We have SUCH infrequent contact and our "conversations" are so limited that any negative remarks about RT would stand out like a sore thumb. I just don't think it's a good idea RIGHT NOW.

Lady C...YES! You hit it RIGHT ON THE HEAD! SO HIGH MAINTENENCE!! Even though it is supposedly the main thing that couples fight about, WH and I NEVER, EVER fought about money. We were always on the same page...save, save, save, major purchases required lots of consideration and discussion, I always look for sales. I never buy anything for myself that is not on sale. I go clothes shopping for myself a couple of times a year, but am very selective...I always want my "fashion dollar" to go very far.

RT is a clothes horse. And yes, she always spent her husband's attorney salary like it was going out of style. Her kids' clothes are all from those nice catalogs (the ones that I don't even get) and stores in the mall. I dress my kids in Target, Old Navy and Kohls...they're little boys and could care less (although DS11 is starting to...I knew it would come, but up until now, who cares so why spend the money??)

And you are SO right about her not having a job (except for a few hours at the coffee shop..YUCK). She WAS a special ed teacher before marriage, so now she'll have to go back to re-certify. So assuming that's what she's going to do, she will be paying tuition (I think that's part of her spousal support agreement, though). Nonetheless, it will be a couple of years before she starts to earn a decent salary.

I have a GREAT job that pays EXCELLENT money...AND I only work part time. I get the kids every afternoon and am off in the summer, so we've never had any child care expenses. Interestingly, WH will have to pay MORE in CS when I go full time because I will then have to pay for child care. (Not to mention that for the kids sake, this was something neither WH or I ever really wanted...we loved my work arrangments and not having to do the child care thing.) So I will be making more by going full time, AND getting more CS.

That was one of my biggest arguments to ILs about letting him stay at their house. I argued that the consequences of WH's choice were not being felt, but ILs worried that *I* would end up hurt financially if WH were maintaining two households. NOT TRUE. CS guidelines will protect me...I get what I am owed no matter his living arrangments. In addition, attorney fees ain't cheap. Perhaps if WH had experienced the financial consequences right from the get-go, he might not have filed for D.

Finally, thank you for the reminder about keeping my love bank in the black. I don't know quite how to explain this..and since I am really just in the beginning, I don't know how long I can sustain it. But I pray every day for strength and patience (a virtue I lack). I also have found that MIL really boosts me...she has such a strong faith that it somehow is transmitted to me...??? I don't know if that makes any sense. Until all of this, I was NEVER religious; no true relationship with God....so I KNOW how this might sound. Now I really BELIEVE that God has started me on this path, and that he has a plan...no matter how things work out, he is doing this for a reason and as MIL reminds me...God can only work for what is good and right. I have already grown...spiritually and in other ways...so I am changed forever in very good ways...no matter what happens to my M.

I'm not certain that's what MEDC was getting at, though...I think he was more concerned that I didn't appear desperate or like I was throwing myself at WH. ???

BTW...I already gave away my location...GR. and the CG Fest is great! We missed it this year, though...we USED to go every year as a family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

LilSis

Yes, you understood me quite well. I too would strongly suggest that you do NOT discuss the HO.
I would however suggest that your kids come FIRST in all of this and if there is ANY need that your WH is not meeting for his kids, that it needs to be brought to his attention for THEIR sake. Your children come first. There are ways to bring things to his attention without appearing negative. One thing my son did was write down his feelings.... at my suggestion... and that is what I shared with his mother.
As always best of luck.

Just a thought...what about an email to RT's STBX?

Hi STBX:
Just wanted to wish you a happy New Year, and hope you had a nice Christmas. Hope that 2007 is a better year for both of us!

When's your D final? You didn't hear it from me, but I hear not all is well in adultery land...

Hope you are doing well.
LS

Plants a seed?? It's likely word gets back to RT that someone's saying things aren't so rosy, and she starts applying the pressure. That way, it doesn't come from me, and even if it did come out that I "said" something...what I said was pretty innocuous.

My only fear is that STBX comes back with something like, "What do you mean? WH gave RT a ring for Christmas." or "That's weird. They've been out looking at houses for the past month." That would be a huge kick in the face. Could I take it...???

Thinking about it strikes fear in my heart.

If he replied with a "what makes you say that?' I could say something equally evasive like, "Well, I'm still very tight with ILs."

?????

"One thing my son did was write down his feelings.... at my suggestion... and that is what I shared with his mother."

I think this is a GREAT IDEA for your son to write a letter to his Dad.

I was saying that telling your H what his responsibilities are will do no good. RATIONALIZATION and JUSTIFICATION will be the result.

An interesting thing just happened...there was a message on my machine just now. WH's IC called, "WH, just wanted to checking in with you about our appt. this morning at 9:30. I'll give you a call on your cell." The call came in at 9:45. Don't know why the therapist would have called here...I can't imagine that WH EVER gave him our home number.

Grrrrr....WH only goes to IC every other week, so now he's missed one. Talk about a Freudian slip.

WAR STRATEGY:

I wouldn't send an E-MAIL which could be printed out to the STBXH. If I talked to him, it would be through conversation.



This isn't true is it? I would not go THEIR LEVEL with the dishonesty.

AND...don't get me started about WHs and ICs....

My H used counseling to support his rationalizations and justifications about his A...his sessions focused on how bad I was and he never told her that he was having an affair...nor did she suspect that..WHAT A WASTE....

I'll never forget the Friday when he called and said he was going to a counseling session..wow was I stupidly hopeful about the outcome of those sessions... and I didn't hear from him again until Monday... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Well, this therapist knows all about the A. I sent him a letter way back in the beginning giving him my perspective, and FIL (who worked in counseling before he retired) vetted the guy and when doing so, provided the circumstances. He comes recommended from a couple of other independent sources that I've checked with, too, so I guess he's good. One source said that he was particularly good with "men's issues" and wouldn't for one minute let WH get away with thinking A is okay because it feels good. The therapist is also very involved in his church...so although he is not a "Christian therapist," he certainly has a basis in morality and spirituality.

That said...FIL is also wondering why IC doesn't seem to be having an effect. I guess you can lead a horse to water...

A thought occurred...wishful thinking I know, but nonetheless...

Could it be that WH is crashing? Totally bailing on his brother, bailing on the kids, bailing on IC, knowing his dad is leaving... Could it POSSIBLY be that the house of cards is falling and he's trying like mad to keep it all together, so everything else is getting lost in the shuffle?

More likely, he got his fix yesterday and is still high...nothing else exists in his universe.

One can hope. It's nice to give myself the little gift of hope every now and then instead of assuming that all is rosy in A-land.

Sorry, Sis.

I don't see any indication of him crashing....



This is moreso the case....

I think he is more receptive to you...

A part of him KNOWS that what he is doing is WRONG....

BTW, I love Mr. W's ideas of the postcards..or even pictures..bringing to his mind your history with him..He is trying to rewrite that history, trying to convince himself that he NEVER loved you and you were NEVER happy....

Of course, he's not going to like that therapist. TALK DOESN'T WORK...unless you can convince him to talk to Steve Harley. Have you considered a MB Counseling session for yourself? That would be a great idea to see what Steve thinks about YOUR PLAN.

Okay...WH was just here picking up the boys. I had to call him at about 11:30 to ask what his plans were (again). While on the phone, I asked if he would be willing to bring them by tonight and get them ready for bed while I am at my meeting. He agreed, so check that off my to do list. (BTW, he asked if DS8 would wear the gray coat he "got" for him. I told him I returned it to his folk's house, it's in a grocery bag by the back door; I would dress him in his usual coat...MY CHILDREN DO NOT NEED YOUR GIRLFRIEND'S KIDS HAND ME DOWNS--EITHER EMOTIONALLY OR LITERALLY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH I feel like screaming)

This is gonna be long...so bear with me. I need feedback and instructions for when we meet up tonight.

When he arrived, I pretended like I didn't see his truck and waited until he knocked. DS11 let him in.
LS: You don't have to knock, it's your house.
WH: Well, I'll knock. Are the boys ready?
LS: Do you need them to wear boots?
WH: No, that's okay, just coats and gloves in case we do something outside.
WH continues to stand by the back door, so I go down to be by him. Little chit-chat about the cat and some new enviornmentally friendly litter he found. I ask him to get me some Iams at Sams next time he goes (he agreed)
I give him a hug, which he returns, one-armed. He sighs, and says, "What are you doing?" Total eye contact. Dammit...I totally blanked on what I was supposed to say. (BTW...he smelled like cologne. He hasn't worn cologne in forever...RT must like it)
LS: (in the eyes) Do you think I could go through this whole experience and not be a different person?
WH: No...but...(silence)
LS: (with direct eye contact) Well, I'm just trying to show you that I love you and I just want happiness for you.
WH: Well, thank you. That's what I want, too. For me, I mean.
DS11 comes down.
WH: Did you brush your teeth?
LS: No, neither one of you did. I want you to both go up and brush.
WH: Why don't you go up and brush DS8s? He doesn't do it very well. (No kidding...who do you think brushes them every night...)
LS: Because I want to spend time with you.
WH sighs again. I hug him and he hugs me back, obligatory one armed hug...and he closes his eyes, kind of squinty-like, grimmace...like what am I supposed to do about this.
WH: Let me take a look at the hot water heater. (we go to the basement)
He's inspecting it and saying how it costs $250 to have it installed...maybe he could do it. I question whether that's a good idea...working with a gas line and stuff...frankly it does make me a little nervous.
WH: I just don't know how much you can afford. (to which I say nothing, just look at him)
WH: what about the size. Do you think this one is big enough?
LS: I have no idea. What do you think?
WH: Well, do you run out of hot water?
LS: You lived here for 12 years, so you would know as well as I do. I just want something that can sustain a family of four, keeping in mind that the kids are getting older and will be taking showers in the morning. So...what about the furnace filter?
WH: Well, I changed it a while ago, and the thermostat is set to tell you when it needs to be replaced.
LS: Huh?
WH goes on to give a whole speil about the thermostat flashing when the filter needs changing, goes back to show me how to replace it (I didn't go over to watch...just kept standing by the hot water heater. By the end of this lecture, my eyes were starting to mist up...it's just too much.
WH: I don't mean to thrust all this at you. Let's go look at the thermostat and I'll show you. (we go upstairs and he's flipping through all the controls on the thermostat. After a minute of that, I put my head in my hands)
WH: No, it's easy...the manual's here somewhere...
LS: Can you just do this? (I hope not too much desperation sounding here, but really, I was affected, feeling overwhelmed)
WH: (quickly, like an automatic response) yeah
LS: It's just too much. (eyes tearing a little) I know I can do all this, but it's just too much to keep track of all of this by myself. We need you.
WH: I don't mean to thrust all of this on you.
DS's come downstairs after their version of brushing, so we wander to the back door. I hold on to WH's arm and sort of lean on him. As they leave I hug him again and kiss his neck again. The lips are never available. He asks what time I'll be home from my meeting. Air kisses to the boys and a squeeze of WH's hands and he walks out the door (he squeezed back).
To end things a little lighter. I mention that I have a new hand cream that really works well, and I'd get him some (his hands get VERY dry and cracked in the winter). Mentioned that it's better than the kind we always USED to use.
The boys came back in...forgot their gloves...so I'm digging around for two pair that match. I joke to WH about global warming (it has been SO warm here), and the meteorlogist on the local news who always poo-poos global warming. WH is a big environmentalist (even though now he drives a Suburban...yuck) so he always rolled his eyes at that meterologist. Laugh from WH.

Then they left.

My opportunity to make up for any mis-steps is tonight. I am going to call FIL to make sure he doesn't get roped into being the one to be here tonight (I can just see it...)

SOOOO....help me out here, folks. What do I need to emphasize now? I FEEL LIKE I BLEW IT...I NEED TO BE MUCH MORE PREPARED FOR THESE INTERACTIONS BECAUSE I CAN'T DO IT ON THE FLY. I think I blew the "what are you doing" response. I also overdid the whole "I need you" but it was truly how I felt...it's too much and I do feel overwhelmed. He's running around showing me all this mechanical stuff I need to keep track of and I've got a mountain of laundry waiting to be folded, cat puke to clean up, a meeting to prepare for, two bathrooms and a kitchen floor to be mopped....and MB to post on (okay, that one he doesn't need to know about).

Help me out, everyone. Thanks!

great

you did just fine

you were real

ALMOST PERFECT!!!

You have sincerely changed..evidencing your NEED for your HUSBAND!!

Only ONE mistake..not letting him know you trust him to put the WATER HEATER in...he is so NEEDY for ADMIRATION....

This is a man who will have a HARD TIME ABANDONING HIS CHILDREN...

He wants to do the RIGHT THING...

I am again SPEECHLESS...

Back later...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I would take the "what are you doing "as a mixed signal... maybe confusion on his part. He KNOWS what you are doing... what he is unsure of is how he should respond... so he puts it back on you.
Simple enough answer to his question.... "what are you doing...?" I am flirting with my husband to let him know I love and miss him. No more, no less.
I would let him install the water heater... it is a VERY simple job and he most likely can handle it... plus that will absolutely tick off the HO.
Good job.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />



such a way with words

but

I
agree
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

it just has more "zip" than "infuriate the harlot!"

*snort*

WH is soooooooooooo clueless right now

you have him stepping all over his own words ...

this is good
he is confused by your Plan A

means he is MORE "on the fence" than he was prior to your excellent Plan A

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"on the fence" is a good thing for you right now ...

Pep

LilSis, I don't think you blew it. Maybe you didn't give the perfect response you planned, but it was good. Maybe the "I need you" was more than you planned, but it was honest.

I think an earlier post from me got lost in the forgiveness discussion, so, with masculine obstinancy, I'll repeat my clever observations: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I suspect that it's SuperMom who makes you think you need to be perfectly prepared for each interaction with WH and makes you panic after each one that doesn't go precisely as planned. It would be helpful to get her to relax. Can you convince her that she doesn't have to deal with WH anymore? Let SuperMom and her sister, Little Miss I-Can-Change-My-Own-Oil, watch the kids, while SexyFlirty LS and her sister, Little Miss Can-I-Squeeze-Your-Bicep?, deal with WH.

Sorry not much time to contribute but still praying for you,
Athanasius

I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to write him a LETTER to explain WHAT YOU ARE DOING..giving him a ROAD MAP HOME..this should be written simply and clearly..it will be important to make certain points....

I realize now the mistakes I made...

I am working on changing and have made major improvements already.....

I now full understand your NEEDS to be RESPECTED ..make sure to use this word.. and ADMIRED...and TAKEN CARE OF BY ME....

We all need you HERE to take care and look after us...

It is DEFINITELY NOT TOO LATE for us

We can have a BETTER MARRIAGE THAN EVER...


It seems like a lot as I type it here but I'm sure that it can be said succinctly...Include a ANOTHER SPECIAL PICTURE of your choosing...Maybe the ROSE should accompany this....