I see your points about WANT vs. NEED...

But the Harleys speak of emotional NEEDS...meeting each others emotional NEEDS in a marriage...

Why does that word provoke so much anxiety in us, I wonder?

Mimi

do you remember LowOrbit ?
(for LilSis ... Low was a male FWH who used to post here)

remember the thread discussion about the girl in the red convertable ???

Low's A began because he perceived his wife would never do the fun, spur of the moment things he wanted to do ...

remember that conversation?

he shined a light on something I never understood

Low asked us BW to be WILLING to be the girl in the red convertable ... willing to at least go along with the fantasy ... if not actually go into debt to purchase a sports car

Low taught me alot about "desire" of a WH .... some of their desire might be to fix things around the house ... but I highly doubt that WH was drawn to OW so he could fiddle with her water heater ....

more likely so he could go have some fun
AND be admired
AND be playful

so

one of the emotional needs is recreational companionship

one is sexual fulfillment

also physical attractiveness

some of the other ENs are more mundane
like domestic support/financial support, etc (I am certain LilSis was meeting MOST of her WH's ENs)

but the missing ENs are usually of a sexier, friskier, less house-wifey nature

which is what Golfer and 'Steven King' (LOL) are alluding to. I think

I'm gonna look for that old thread

Pep

I think it is the "whole package." I know I wasn't meeting some needs...others I was meeting...others I was meeting for myself or because I THOUGHT they were his needs. What I'm trying to work on is highlighting my willingness to understand, appreciate, and meet those needs that I was NOT meeting...from a place of love and honesty. Not a place of manipulating. This is real, honest change and I'm so much more open to being loving in ways that I wasn't comfortable with before.

I am very capable of being the sexier, friskier person. That is what I am trying to show. But for him to BELIEVE that these are indeed REAL changes, he needs to see that I have changed on the inside, too. The changes aren't just superficial changes in order to "win" him back. That's what last night's conversation was about...to me. Ultimately, he'll need to TRUST the changes.

In terms of RT...she did meet some of these needs, but she was also MOST certainly a "damsel in distress;" distress in her marriage, distress in her life...lonely, bored, unfulfilled...blech. She NEEDED to someone who "understood" her and would save her from her miserable existence. WH could come to her rescue by being hanging out with her, talking to her about her emotions, making her feel better...you know how it goes from there. He flew in with his red cape and saved her. Now, THAT'S being needed.

Meanwhile, I was going about my life pulling more and more of the load, convinced that if I wasn't PERFECT, I would lose everything. I wasn't paying attention to WH's needs for admiration and affection. I was much too focused on my OWN insecurities that I couldn't see his...what a vicious cycle.

I think I can use my intuition in the need vs. want vs. desire thing. From my perspective, I did a lot of WANTING before (I want you to take out the garbage or change a lightbulb). However, I didn't express my DESIRE by being sexy or flirtatious, so he just didn't know. I didn't express my NEED for him because to me, demonstrating need would be viewed as weakness and I was convinced he would be repulsed by that or something. (see Mel's post yesterday)

You all here have educated me enough to recognize the subtle differences in these...but it's ultimately up to me to determine how to play them all off each other...balance them out. Keep in mind that showing NEED has been difficult for me, so I don't worry that I will over-do that. It's stretching...but it's also freeing.

Anyway, a couple of quick conversations with WH today...I wanted to bring the boys out to see the 21 F-15s do a fly over...as did EVERYONE in town....it was incredible.
--Hi honey, any suggestion for where we could park to get a good view?
--What about such-and-such lot?
--Already full.
--Hmmmm...can't think of anything.
--Okay, I'll just do my best. Thanks! bye

Later...the boys and I decided to hoof it from home to the park. I checked my phone and I had missed a call from him, so I call back.
--Did you call me earlier?
--Yeah, where are you?
--Almost to the spot where we feed the ducks.
--Oh, I was going to help you find a place closer.
--Oh, darn...oh well, this should be okay, and we don't have time to walk back home and get in the car. Thanks, though!
--Byes...

After the fly-by was over, I called.
--Even the boys thought it was worth it to walk two miles and stand in the cold for an hour to see that!
--Yeah, I was listening to it on the radio and you could hear all of the ceremony which was interesting.
--Yeah...I brought the radio with me, so everyone down there was huddled up around it listening and we knew everything that was going on.
--Oh, good! gotta go, on a call. (I think he admired the fact that I thought to bring the radio...he ABSOLUTELY would have done the same, I know it)

See, RT doesn't care about stuff like that. She sort of tags along on things like that if others are going, but wouldn't go to the effort to experience things like that herself. And she surely wouldn't bring along the radio so as to appreciate what was happening downtown. For example, back in 2004, WH and I rounded up a few people (of different political persuasions) to go to a Kerry rally downtown. He and I were enthusiastic about it...as an "experience" for us and DS11. RT came along, but she wasn't enthusiastic. She would never SAY anything or COMPLAIN at all, but she just doesn't CARE, and you can't fake that. I imagine she came along ONLY because WH was a part of it.

I don't know if that makes sense....but I'm sure my interactions with WH today about the funeral and fly-over will remind him of that kind of thing that we have in common...something that WE were enthusiastic about and could talk about. It was just so natural for me to call him about something like that, talk to him about it, and share the experience. I'm going to email him some of the pictures I took.

Anyway...more than you ever wanted to know. But writing it helps me to process, if you know what I mean. Thanks for reading! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just read your post, Pep...

Get this, you guys..

I read over this info in HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS TODAY...

Dr. Harley says that a H will find his wife to be IRRESITIBLE if she effectively meets the following 5 NEEDS in no particular order but notice what he listed first... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SEXUAL FULFILLMENT

RECREATIONAL COMPANIONSHIP

DOMESTIC SUPPORT

ADMIRATION

PHYSICAL ATTRACTIVENESS

Wow, Pep..you smart thing, you....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

...so can we count today's interactions as Recreational Companionship...maybe...???

(see, now you've really got me stretching...)
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lilsis:

Recreational Companionship Today: No.

WH looking in and seeing that you understand that the world is larger than split ends? Yes.

Finding a way to have gotten into the car to go see the ceremony with you and the kids? That would have been awesome.

But his efforts to make it happen with you is important as well. That was your H. He was attempting to connect with you because you understand the bigger picture. RT was wondering why her soaps were interruppted....

Recreational Companionship? Feeding the ducks. Snowsledding on the hill near the ducks (Darn that global warming!) Looking for that Red Corvette.

normal men and women get into affairs usually looking for a positive reflected sense of self (totally outside the EN issue, actually)

normal men and women eventually find the reflected sense of self through the mirror of adultery not so good .... no matter what ENs were met or not met in the marriage

eventually, we need to know ourselves as decent and good ... something that adultery cannot provide

the adulterors who are normal suffer tremendously in this regard

(not talking about the "lifestyle" adulterors who have almost no relationship skills)

He was working, probably directing the nightmarish traffic, so experiencing with us wasn't even a possibility. Oh well.


So an element of Plan A is to reflect that decent and good self, even if it is a reflection of the H locked up inside the WH....?? So, do you think my WH saw himself reflected in RT (athletic, competitive, physical), and over time may begin to see the other side reflected (unfulfilled, lonely, etc.)? There's got to be more to it, however, and for me, the EN thing fits. Maybe I just am incapable of thinking of anything POSITIVE that hideous RT could reflect. To me, any mirror would crack into a thousand pieces....

And If it's outside the EN issue, why do we spend so much time thinking about what ENs the OW is meeting??

I sense that is true about my WH. I can't count on it, but FIL calls it "turmoil," and MIL calls it "confusion." I don't know because the ACTIONS don't demonstrate it...but I've seen something very unhappy in his eyes.

Anyway, that's a REALLY interesting way to look at it. I'm going to give it more thought; not sure I'm getting it.

I agree with Pep that your husband, like my husband, was normal and down deep feels bad about his affair.

But, I also think that for your husband, like my husband, it was the UNMET EMOTIONAL NEEDS, that made your marriage vulnerable.

The OW's ability to meet those NEEDS causes the ADDICTION.

This is not at all to say that the A was your FAULT or my FAULT. It was the CHOICE they made to deal with their PROBLEMS.

Meeting the EMOTIONAL NEEDS is what is recommended by the Harleys during PLAN A...

Is exactly what was recommended to me by Steve himself...

ETA: It is important to show your CAPACITY to meet those NEEDS and your willingness to make the CHANGES necessary...

There seems to be an issue about SINCERITY and remaining yourself in PLAN A...

PLAN A is about GENUINE, LONGLASTING CHANGE in the BS...

It's the OP who is being PHONY AND DECEITFUL...

The genuineness of your efforts will soon become apparent to him if not already... This is what he is wanting (THE WORD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) and NEEDING ...the return of his SIS...the SIS that he fell in love with....

...and meeting the ENs is very concrete and doable. And because the BS is being affirming and positive, it also allows the BS to relect that which is (or was) good and positive in the WS. So maybe there's more overlap than not.

However, working the EN/Plan A angle works for me both intellectually and in terms of behavior. I can pinpoint what the likely issues were, search within myself for ways that I can address these issues and most important...actually IMPLEMENT those changes. If WH chooses to learn about the ways I have addressed the issues, good for him. If he chooses not to learn, then it's his loss and someone else will benefit. (That sounds so tough and confident, and I'm not either, really...but if I say it enough I'll begin to believe it more, right?)

Sounds GREAT!!

Not responding yet..just a word of encouragement.

I am so impressed with where you are today that I am actually going to go back and read your entire thread before responding to get a nice complete picture of the situation before I add my .02.

[Eyeballing page count] it may be a few days....lol.

Just read your edit
From my earlier post:
So I'm right with you, mimi! I am stretching...but I'm stretching mySELF...making my SELF more open, more loving, more compassionate, more sexy, more willing to take risks, less afraid, less perfectionistic (is that a word?). THIS is what allows me to be more WILLING to understand, appreciate, admire my H. The change starts with me, first...THEN I need to make sure WH sees it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So the "issue" is me constantly challenging myself to make sure that my change is consistent with my SELF...that I'm NOT changing for WH, but for ME, because it makes ME a better person.

okeydokey

but watch out "better person" does not translate to "perfect person"

donchaknowlilsis

Absolutely. A better person is one who doesn't waste her life trying to be perfect. A better person realizes that she's worthy of love and affection even if she isn't perfect.

Better and perfect=mutually exclusive.

The Best is the Enemy of the Good. -- some book I read once

This is a very important realization and insight IMHO.

I would like to suggest an alternative way of considering it; same insight in slightly different vocabulary. Perhaps your Self already includes the possibility that you are striving to achieve. Certain of the possibilites of your Self are already fully conscious; certain are less so. So, you're not so much creating a new personality or changing your Self as allowing parts of your Self to come to expression. This growth feels wonderful because it enriches your subjective emotional experience; you can be BOTH competent and spontaneous, a good mother and a sexy wife, etc. Yet, the new forms you are growing into are not fake -- and really can't be -- because both the possibilities, the familiar and the unfamiliar, are YOU.

How's that sound?

Ath

Not Stephen King..Nicholas Sparks??

Same insight in a MUCH BETTER vocabulary...

Wow. That's getting printed out.

Thanks, Athanasuis!

FYI...I have a meeting next week with one of my co-workers. A new project is being initiated and looks like they want me to take on a significant role. So, more hours, more money, if I go full time it will mean benefits...which I will need.

It is a wonderful opportunity and I'm sure I will enjoy working on this particular project...but part of me is sad and frustrated that it may require my boys to go to afterschool care and in child care for the summer. They've lost so much already; to add to that loss by taking away the stability of having me home with them... That reality takes away some of the pleasure of being asked, the excitement of starting something new and being in on the ground floor.

Anyway, it is the reality...
Adultery stinks.