Have your IL's provided you a key and free access to their home???? Would be a nice gesture that their home is open to you as well as your WH. Then, with IL's support, you could drop by unannounced at any time and WH can't stop you. Finally, without FIL around your lacking information...couldn't you hide a voice activated digital recorder under the couch WH sits in watching TV??? Might be the best place for it AND it's not like he's going to clean under there. Maybe duct tape it up and under the sofa.

Not all the time...but a little inside information now and wouldn't be all bad (though you may hear things you don't necessarily want to hear...but if OW is there or discussing on the phone sneaking in at any point in time it would give you nice proof to offer your IL's)

Mr. Wondering

LilSis:

Sorry to have thrown you for a Loop, That was not my real intent. Just wanted to open up some discussion.

Many aspects of your story mirror what happened in the early stages of my M. So, I think I can help.

However, I didn't stay at my IL's after Dday, and I removed the rectal-cranium inversion I had quickly.

But let me point out, your Plan A is going very well.

Your WH holding his head in his hands, the glimpses of H that you see, are indications that the Plan A is having effect. You are creating conflict in him, and making him realize that there is a new you.

Because you can never go back to the old M. There is a new one, better than the old one. You have learned some terriffic things here. You can be a much better W to you H in the future. And hopefully, He can learn some of these things when his rectal-cranium inversion comes to an end.

Some one else here said, why does the WS get a new improved BS, and the WS doesn't have to do much? Because that what has to happen first. If WH does not really come around, then the new improved BS CAN kick the WS to the curb.

The Harley method speaks of Utopia, with both partners in the M getting thier EN's met, and using POJA and O&H to really have a great M.

We usually fall short of Utopia. However, and this is the most important point, the old M had no chance of ever even getting on the Road to Utopia. My BS and I are on the Road. We have made excellent progress. We will never reach Utopia, but we now have the ability from the information that the Dr. Harley has revealed to us to deal with the issues in our M and our daily life to always stay on the road.

So, I do not want to go back to my Pre-A M, and/or W. And she certainly doesn't want the lying cheating guy that I was then. But we like the new US. And it isn't too different from the old US.

Your Plan A can end when the most appropriate time to do so. Your Plan A has to show your WH that you are by far the best choice for him going forward. And the RT is not. Plan B reinforces the insuitability of RT.

And I do not care about the balance of your Credit Card. If your child was sick, what balance would you allow on the credit card? $5,000? $10,000 a million? Your Marriage is sick right now. Steve Harley, for $185 an hour may save it. And might just be the least expensive amount you spend saving your M. My BS and I did the MB Weekend. Did it hit my credit card Balance? You Betcha! Best money I EVER, and I mean EVER, spent.

So, do not despair. You are doing great. You can vent here. Its ok.

LG

EXACTLY!! As I said earlier, I strongly encourage you to pursue this. I'm still gladly paying that credit card bill each month!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I ran up a little credit card debt for the first time in my life during the mess a few years ago. However, I still avoided paying much credit card interest. MBNA and Discover often run great promotions with 0% interest for 6, 9 or even 12 months when you open a new card. I opened a MBNA account, wrote a large balance transfer check to my primary card (make sure there is a cap on the fee like $75 instead of 3% of whatever you transfer) and then put the card away while I paid it down WITHOUT INTEREST. What's great is now that it's paid down, the MBNA card reward program I prefer to airline mile rewards on my old card. MBNA teamed up with Fidelity Investments and automatically transfer 2% to a College 529 Savings account for our daughter age 7 (I'd refer you to the program but they have since discontinued offering the 2% program to new cardholders). Maybe AIM or some other 529 Fund has a credit card tie in program that includes and introductory 0% or low balance transfer interest rate.

I am not presuming you didn't know the above...just letting you know that it's OK and the damage can be minimized.

Mr. Wondering

we're holding your hand LilSis ... all of us

Pep

I will make an appointment before the end of the week. I promise. So stretching includes carrying a balance on my credit card, right? Ahh..no big deal.

Remember how my best friend's FWH and I talk a lot? I'm his withdrawal "sponsor"...but I've been avoiding him because I didn't think he would approve of my Plan Aing. He's very protective and big brother-ly. I told my best friend (with whom I went shopping this weekend) that I would just have to call him and take my medicine. So I left him a VM the other day.

Well, he called me today and we had a great talk. I had to go over my whole growth and development, and convince him that I'm really in a good place. He finally got it and is happy for me, but is just concerned that I'll end up hurt again. He is really struggling with a ton of (well-deserved) guilt, feelings of anger and betrayal related to the FOW, and withdrawal from FOW. He doesn't know how to reconcile how God could have put him in this situation when he was so vulnerable and then allowed him to make such stupid, wrong choices.

I used my experience to try to help him...here he is, only two months into recovery, and he's being really hard on himself, wondering why his head and heart aren't totally in synch that the A was a horrible, awful thing. It felt so right, but it was so wrong. He knows this intellectually, but his heart still tugs. He wants there to be some kind of greater good, some purpose....his therapist tells him that's not important. I disagree, and I told him so and told him why. I think there can be lots of "goods" that come out of this awful thing that's happened, but he needs to give himself and his wife time to get some perspective.

Anyway, there was much more to it, obviously...but most of what I shared, I learned here, so thank you everyone! It feels SOOO good to help someone, especially two people that I care for so much and that I've known for half of my life. So I'm paying it forward, everyone.

I disagree with your therapist. I DO think there can be a greater good coming from all this. For one, he can work on his marriage, and not accept anything less than a WONDERFUL marriage from now on.

He now knows how close he came to losing everything, and that will make things that more precious.

My marriage was not saved, but a lot of good came out of the pain. IRL I'm always telling folks about the MB principles. I work at a Navy Hospital, and there are lots of folks going through marriage problems. I've always been the one person in the crowd who advises them NOT to give up. There have been several (including my boss) who are slowly getting the marriage they deserved back.

So keep on paying it forward.

Lilsis - you don't want or need an opposite sex confidant. You are WAAAAAY to vulnerable to be anyone's withdraway sponsor! Huh????

DITTO

double ditto!

triple ditto.

Really? I don't mean to sound naive, but I think it's been helpful to have that relationship. My best friend is like my sister and her FWH is TOTALLY like my brother. Eeewww. The idea is creepy, frankly.

I talk to the both of them together as often as I talk to either alone. I know that they talk about me to one another, and my best friend encourages FWH to talk to me so that I get the male perspective. I tell my best friend EVERYTHING about my conversations with FWH. FWH also knows--without question--that my primary alligence is to my best friend. She and I support one another as well...I have cried on her shoulder (and vice-versa) and allowed her to babysit me when I was at rock bottom. So I guess if you want to apply MB principles, this passes the POJA sniff test.

And it's not like he cries on my shoulder and I pat the guy on the back. I nail FWH's a$$ to the wall EVERY time he says something remotely foggy, but encourage him when he says something insightful. I feel like listening to FWH and SUPPORTING their marriage is my way of being a good friend to BOTH of them. They have BOTH been very good to me. I want their marriage to succeed; I feel a little like I have a duty to since I was their maid of honor. But it's mostly because I love them both....like a sister and a brother. And it really makes me feel good to help them, to give something back.

FWH also knows my WH very well; they were close friends at one time. He introduced me to WH. They went to the police academy together and used to work together. So his perspective as both a FWH and as someone who knows WH is valuable to me in understanding what's going on in my own life.

Again, my response to anything "untoward" is a big fat eeewww. I guess I just don't buy that men and women can ONLY have close relationships in the context of a marrige. I am VERY clear on my personal boundary in this relationship...my best friend is my first priority. That has even been articulated, and enthusiastically accepted, by the FWH. He pulls any cr*p with her, and he's BUSTED. Curb kicking time.

Here on this board we have men and women supporting one another, offering advice and providing alternative points of view. Who's to say that couldn't cross a line and become some sort of on-line A?

Lil Sis - the OW in my life thought that she could be friends with my husband. When we first set a no contact boundary (it was an EA - hadn't gone physical - but Kasey was allowing inappropriate deposits in his love bank and admitted it to me when he recognized it - fog hadn't set in yet - we got lucky there) the no contact boundary was for "no one-on-one contact" but that she was welcome to have a friendship with both of us. She thought she should be above that because she didn't have "those kind of intentions" - but - being unwilling to have contact with both of us, we saw her fog for what it was, and she lost contact with BOTH of us. Prying her OUT of our relationship was one of the hardest things to do because she was obsessed and angry that we'd draw a boundary - and WHY we drew the boundary.

In our church, there is a policy of no one-on-one contact between opposite sex members who are not married. No car-pooling, unless there are more than two riding together; meetings that are one-on-one out of necessity are kept within appropriate boundaries at all times. OW even thought she should be an exception to that rule with regard to us - because that was the logic we tried to use with her. before the boundary, she'd be calling or I/Ming my husband for 3 or more hours at a time. In no way could a clear mind consider that appropriate - especially when they met in a sex addiction recovery forum...

You're in contact with a man who has already once cheated on his wife. It is not a stretch for any of us here to see him doing it again - brother-relationship or not. Preserve the friendship from any harm by talking with both of them, being with BOTH of them or none of them!

Sis:

Don't let this allow you to distance yourself from US.

We are your SUPPORT TEAM...holding your hands as Pep says.

As you already know, Sis.. It's time for CHANGE AND GROWTH...STRETCHING and OPENING UP YOUR EYES to a NEW AND DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON RELATIONSHIPS...

Sad to say, Sis, you are wanting to hang on to your naiveness...I understand..been there done that....

We are speaking from experience out here....

I can't agree more with my buddies about your need put a STOP to the convos with your BF's H....

My H and I are no longer friends with a couple who used to be our BEST OF FRIENDS PRIOR TO HIS AFFAIR....MAYBE if I had known to take the advice that you have been given, our friendship would have been spared...MAYBE....

My H's BEST FRIEND became my CONFIDANTE..I felt that it was INNOCENT..but did call him often and he called me..BUT HIS WIFE, WHO WAS A CLOSER FRIEND OF MINE..not my best friend, but I was closer to her than him..NEVER CALLED ME..I thought that was weird. She was not there for me AT ALL...I'm thinking that she did not like the nature of the relationship that I had established with her H..and now MY H really resents his friend, thinking that he was taking advantage of me because he was unhappy with his wife and I'm sure she resents me...SOOOOO...My H's other BF did almost the EXACT SAME THING....in starting to call me A LOT...I thought they were just being FRIENDLY and CARING and I needed to talk to them, felt that I was somehow closer to my H that way but looking back the conversations did drift off onto other topics...NOW I SEE IT FOR WHAT IT WAS..I think both THEY and I were getting more out of it than was appropriate....I'm ATTRACTIVE on a lot of different levels...meeting their ADMIRATION, CONVERSATION, RECREATION and whatever needs..we'll leave it at that....

Your job is to focus on your own PERSONAL and MARITAL RECOVERY. Your friends have a whole lot of their own work to do so early in their own RECOVERY...

Overall, a relationship with your BF'S H is likely to be more HARMFUL to each of you and to your marriages than HELPFUL AT ALL, IMO...

I was thinking THE EXACT SAME THING YESTERDAY as the others...

Plus, how do you think the relationship between your H and the OW began..probably as seemingly innocent as this...

((((SIS))))

Sis, I hope you make a conscious decsion to only pay it forward with female friends. It is this type of emotional relationship that often goes sour. And considering all that you are going through right now... it would be best to avoid certain things.
You are doing so well... keep up the good work.

Quote:
Sad to say, Sis, you are wanting to hang on to your naiveness...I understand..been there done that....

I agree with this. One of the things you will be confronted with as you go are your own areas of vulnerability and failure to be vigilant. Wanting to hang on to beliefs that you have had...perhaps even advocated for a long time.


There are pages and pages and pages of examples and even a few articles I believe that outline precisely why close opposite sex friendships are not appropriate for married people.

When you start to rationalize and make exceptions for yourself...well...unfortunately and no matter how unpleasant it sounds and feels to be told this...you are entering a WS frame of mind.

The land of...I know that happens to OTHER people..but this is different because xyz.

And the thing is...you may be RIGHT. There may never ever be anything beyond platonic support in this particular relationship...but that possibility does not in any way diminish the potential that exists and that potential makes it a high risk environment.

You are familiar with how friendships become more...by filling ENs etc. That is very likely how your H found himself where he is today...he failed to protect his weaknesses ...just on principle when there was no threat...and by the time the threat was apparent it was too late...he was invested.

I now reject these situation just purely on principle and expect my H to do the same thing.

Ask yourself this question honestly...

If you recover your M...will you ever again be completely [and I mean completely...not talk yourself into rationalize it but in fact so comfortable that it never even crosses your mind that something beyond friendship may develope] comfortable with your H developing close, intimate, and private relationships/friendships with other women?

Okay...gotcha, everyone. I see your point more clearly now...I appreciate that you are so willing to expand on your concerns. Thanks for sharing your experiences, mimi and Kayla. They sound very similar. I'll keep my interactions limited to my best friend from now on...or only the two of them as a couple (on a number of occasions they have invited me to do things with them, which is a great social outlet for me to meet new people, etc.).

The unfortunate thing is something that I alluded to earlier...I can count my TRUE friends on one hand. My best friend is certainly one of those...no question.

As for my situation...I had a talk with MIL last night. She assured me that she has been crystal clear with WH about the impossibility of any future relationship between she and RT, or FIL and RT. Absolutely not. WH told her he just wants to be happy, and her response to him was that he is SORELY mistaken if he believes that marrying RT, paying child support to me, raising her kids while his own are visitors, and being alienated from his family will bring him anything close to happiness.

WH also told her that he is "waiting for the other shoe to drop" in regard to my behavior toward him of late. She told him that it indeed genuine, and that if he's waiting for it to change, be assured that it will not.

He's just so foggy. It's discouraging. If he's talking that way to his mom, he is SOOO far gone. I know not to watch the garden...but I can't help but notice that it's cold and not very sunny and it's like trying to roses in the dead of winter. I am beginning to recognize the toll this is taking and that it would be really difficult to keep it up for any longer than I have planned. By mid-Feb., it will have been about eight weeks.

Later on, I called WH to make plans for tonight. I have another meeting, and will bring the boys along, but wondered if he could pick them up and bring them home so that they don't have to hang out at my meeting until 8:30. I was shocked when he actually picked up the phone instead of going to VM. We made the arrangements for tonight...and I followed that up by confirming that he was still planning on Weds., which is his usual night (I have a group that I participate in on those nights, but he doesn't know that). Weds. is also RT's "night off" from her kids...her STBX takes them. Isn't that just too bad...

So...WH says, "Why don't we do Thursday instead?"
LS: I have a meeting on Weds. Why, did you have something going on?
WH: Well, I don't now. (big sigh)
LS, to self: you are darn right...

Actually, I'm starting my pilates class on Thursday so maybe he'll get his wish...

Wondering if in light of what MIL told me (as well as something the above referenced FWH said), if I should be more upfront with WH. The FWH asked me what my intent was in doing all of this, and I said, "To let WH know that we can be happy." He asked if I had said this to WH, that plainly and succinctly...ah, no, as a matter of fact I haven't. Huh.

Something like..."WH, you know that I just want you to be happy. I want nothing but the very best for you. The thing is, I know that what is best for you is to be HERE, with me and the boys. I firmly believe that doing what is best, what is right, is the only thing that will ultimately bring you true, enduring happiness. I KNOW that we can be happy together, if given the chance."

And leave it at that.

Too much, eh?

sounds good to me

many of us have had close encounters with opposite sex friendships while hurting from betrayal

our childrens' Godfather made inappropriate comments to me while I was getting support from him & his wife (but she was out of town one time) ... and to be honest ... I did NOT immediately shoot him down ... (I did later) ... but for a moment I enjoyed the flattery because I was in TAKER mode ... it is very dangerous ... trust us ... you are not immune ... it's like waving bacon in front of a starving vegan ...

Pep

I think your saying that could be a great idea right now. Sounds like your H knows how bad he has screwed up and feels that there is a trap awaiting him. I would make your intentions very clear right now. I think... and please don't get your hopes up too high... that his house of cards is about to tumble.
Fingers crossed for you.

But doing things with them as a COUPLE is okay, right? (out for dinner, etc.) It's fun to do things with them and their other friends...