When he said he would do whatever you needed (when you were feeling overwhelmed), I think it would have been great time to say "the one thing I need the most right now is a friend. I would love it if we could sit down and eat a meal as a family and just talk. No expectations. Just a friend."

I dunno if he would do it or not. And the timing would have to be right to request that, when he is willing and receptive. Not when he is in one of his moods.

Doing all of the small odd jobs for you may ease his guilt a little, I don't know. Instead of needing him for all the tasks or sex (since that is the last thing on his mind), it would be great for him to see that you need him JUST FOR HIM and for a friend and that you enjoy his company. "Just spend some time with us. No expectations and no deep talk."

If he would agree to it, I think he would realize how much he misses the family time. (not to mention it would drive the OW insane if she ever found out he had his feet under your table.) May not work, but worth a try.

Spending time in his house can make him miss the comforts of home. I know that long ago the OM tried to explain to me how hard it was living at his Mom's and not having his own house. I should have realized THEN he was not serious about leaving his wife because he didn't even bother to get his own place. I'm rambling. I'll stop. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are soooooooooooo right! lol!


Very funny mental picture here!

Morning, all.

I spent some time this morning going back over old posts. Sometimes things happen so fast that I don't really get a chance to process all the wonderful advice and support that you all provide, and suddenly the thing I wanted to revisit is six pages back.

Couple of conclusions that I've come to:
1. I'm going to back off the overtly sexual stuff (watch MEDC silently cheering). Not completely...because I want to continue to remind him that I AM a sexual being...but out of respect for his request, my tactics in that department will be limited to comments here and there. Maybe emailing a joke or two. An eyebrow wiggle. The "what am i supposed to do about sex" comment thrown out in a half-joking way. Maybe something about how long I've been celibate (Jim can relate...). Make it funny and light and subtly flirty. Just peppered in with normal, family stuff. No more panties...more on the romance side...like the roses with their romantic significance...like ark says...a "whisper."

I am afraid that the overt stuff scares him off enough that he might avoid being around me in order to avoid being blasted with a howitzer...when lobbing him with ping-pong balls would be just as effective in the long run. I think InADaze would concur??

2. Given our recent convos, and the issues that "clicked" with him, two points I would like to emphasize with WH, and would like advice as to how to do so....

***I understand that HE WAS NOT TO BLAME FOR "WHAT HAPPENED TO ME." (meaning jail and the letter) He is very torn up about that whole issue, it is clear EVERY time it comes up. I want him to know that I KNOW he was not responsible for that..."someone else" was.

****I want to somehow make it clear that I am so sorry that I "shut him out." Whomever said (sorry for not remember who exactly...there is SO much good advice here!!) that WH is NOT ONLY referring to me shutting him out post d-day...that he is ALSO referring to how I shut him out prior to the A was CORRECT. WH said something/implied that in our convo the other afternoon. Any ideas as to how to communicate that?

3. I like Neak's idea of a letter...something like, "Top Ten reasons you are a great dad" from the boys, and "Top 10 reasons you are a great husband" from me. Maybe a blank note card...boys on one side, me on the other.

I'm still going back through these posts and making notes. There is SO much good stuff...scripture from Eph525 and GladtoPressOn and mimi and Neak among others...links to other's posts (just started InADaze's and did RS's LilSis')...all that great info on language and communication from SB. That will be my charge for this weekend...in addition to doing some fun stuff with the boys...go back through this all, PROCESS IT and find the nuggets that will work.

I did email WH this morning...which he won't get until tonight as he's at work today...sent him an off-color (not overty dirty) joke that he will like, along with a report on how successful the babysitting experience was last night and how I averted a plumbing disaster that ALMOST required his intervention. (this was a good thing as time was a critical element here and if I hadn't been able to avert it there would have been REAL trouble that I would not have wanted to deal with...gross)

Another thing that occurred to me regarding timeline....not that I'm committing to anything, just a consideration:

If I am able to keep this up for a total of three month, then we'd be looking at mid-March. By then, RT's D will certainly be final. WH and I will be one month out from the earliest possible final D date. We will be a few weeks away from ILs returning from AZ...they expect WH to be out of their house when they return. This will be a very critical time for WH. He will be slapped--no, punched--right in the face with his new "reality" and the consequences of it.

Quite significantly--for him--he will be forced to make some decisions. He will NO LONGER HAVE THE LUXURY OF BEING PASSIVE. If I went to Plan B at around this time, it will make the reality even MORE painful...especially if I have been doing a great Plan A right up until that point. That will be the critical time, when he must take some action...his hand will be forced...not just by me...but by all of the circumstances. A conflunce of events.

He will not be able to accuse or blame me for trying to manipulate things...because the fact that house of cards is crumbling will be a direct result of things that HE--either directly or indirectly--set into motion...not MY fault. I didn't initiate the D...he did. I didn't set the timeline for getting out of his parent's house...they did. I didn't "make promises" to RT about their future...he did (and you can bet she will be making a FULL COURT PRESS by that time). The only thing that I will be doing by going to Plan B at that time is REMOVING MYSELF from his equation. I will be lessening his burden....but at the same time, giving him an escape route.

This is a heavy post, and long. Sorry. My way of processing you know...to write it all out.

a ping pong ball suggestion

wear his man shirts over jeans & a lacy camisole

Pep

LS, I am still thinking about the rest of your post, but I wanted to quickly comment on this. Your going to jail and subsequent sentence was a DIRECT result of his affair. HE SHOULD FEEL TORN UP ABOUT THIS. This would have NEVER happened if he had not dragged you into this nightmare. An affair is as traumatic as being RAPED, and you were responding to that.

In an affair situation, guilt from the FACING OF CONSEQUENCES, is GOOD. Guilt is your friend. I would not alleviate his very APPROPRIATE guilt over this. Don't add to it, but DON'T alleviate it. He NEEDS to see the consequences of his affair and this is surely one of them.

His guilt over your jail time and your sentence is one of the best tools you have, so don't throw this away, ok?


When did you realize you did this?

I love the rest of your plan and think this is a good strategy. Timing will be critical and your instincts are very good here. Can you last that long?

OMG, I actually did this Pep suggestion during PLAN A...

IT'S A WINNER!!!

My H also likes for me to wear his regular old white T-Shirts!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

thanks Mel, I was trying to figure out how to say that about the guilt

guilt is the consequence for bad behavior
corrective actions are the remedy

SIS, you feel guilt for pre-A marriage errors ... and that guilt (plus insight) are motivating you to change

same thing for WH

WH had his share pf pre-A marriage errors as well ... but those come later, in recovery

Pep

Bump in response to this quote by Lilsis: "that he is ALSO referring to how I shut him out prior to the A was CORRECT. WH said something/implied that in our convo the other afternoon. Any ideas as to how to communicate that?"

Apologize to him for "shutting him out". And maybe for thinking your parenting style was better than his.

~ Marsh

Pep:

That is so Shania Twain! But I like it!

But in the glove state right now, it better be a flannel man's shirt!

LS:

Backing off the overt sexual stuff may be right. If it feels right, you will know. Your H protests could be from him as a WH, or as a H. And you know the difference. And that should help you make that decision. But do not stop...

As for the Plan A/Plan B timeframe?

There is a confluence of events coming up.

Do you KNOW for sure that RT D will be final? If it is assumption, then that is dangerous. Make a confirmation, with RT H, ok?

I asked about the IL's return date because I was considering the confluence coming up. Any chance of moving up thier date of return?

Should you invite H back home? A letter in about two weeks, that says, You are welcome back home. There is room here. He can sleep in the guest room or couch, where he can feel comfortable at first.

My thought about this is because if RT's D is getting close, than she is starting to pressure WH to move to a place that she could join him, or he move in with her, whatever. You need to head this off, by giving him an option that allows him to "Save Face" and not have to agree to something. Because everyone will understand if he moves home to be with his family, but not the other way...

Because, if he moves in with RT, then a Plan B date is established without any action on your part.

And your D date is flexible. Many steps have to happen to get there.

And the letter from the boys of the TOP TEN Dad things, good, No, Great... But your Husband list, I'm a little shy about that right now...You may want to leave them one at a time with each rose. Or put the top 10 list on your fridge, in large print, and he will notice.... And when he does, you just say, "I wanted to remember what I was fighting for, EVERY DAY." Plus the boys see it.... And you can have a place for the boys to add to thier list.

JMHO...

You are doing great!

Mel:

Good thoughts here.

I wanted to add that I think LilSis is trying to seperate WH role post "the Slap" and RT's. In regards to the court case/Plea/sentencing, etc. Not to his other activities since....

My thought is that LS needs to know what WH real role was afterward and that no new damaging info is coming out. Because if WH has something to hide here, LS will know that and WH will stay in hiding. Hampering recovery/reconciliation. So, I perceive a desire to allow H a chance to come clean about this.

Does WH own his actions prior to that, and afterward, YES!!! The Guilt and facing the consequences are an excellent thing!

But I can see some of the reasons for seperating her treatment of these actions...

That's my take at least, and if LilSis thinks I am off base, I will defer on this.

Sis,

Hang in there. Much of what he is saying to you tells me that he is processing a lot on his end as well. Men do not communicate verbally in the same way that women do. So you won't necessarily HEAR as much from him about what he's thinking, unless you directly ask him about it. Even so, he may not tell you, depending on whether or not you are talking to WH or H.

Also, one VERY, EXTREMELY IMPORTANT NOTE. There is a body position that you might want to take into account when you talk with him about family matters, especially when you are talking about your kids, or your needs/emotions, that will assist in his dropping of his defenses, and also raise his level of awareness of his emotional connectedness to you. Whenever possible, position yourself directly in front of him, facing him, within arm's distance (his arm) or less if you can. DO NOT stand at his side, or sit to his side (sit straight across from him when you talk to him, with NOTHING between the two of you - two chairs facing each other!).

I say this because, at a very young age, males in our society place their friends at a side-angle to talk; love interests face to face. (This is when there are two in the conversation.) Females are comfortable face to face with either sex ---- but observe men when they speak to each other, even boys. They tend to stand or sit either side by side, or at an angle to one another, rarely face to face straight on. Girls, on the other hand, do face each other with comfort. When there is a love interest, face to face is seen again.

This subtle body placement is used subconsciously in flirting - but you might want to consider it as an active and conscious act whenever possible. It will definitely result in discomfort on his part, and you have already seen it in his sideways hugs. But just standing and talking face to face, or sitting face to face will serve the same purpose, without body contact, if in arm's distance.

(NOW BEFORE EVERYONE GOES APE, I AM SPEAKING IN THE STRICTEST OF GENERALITIES WITH REGARD TO GENDER DIFFERENCES IN COMMUNICATION STYLES - YOUR RESULTS MAY VARY!!!!!)


One thing you might want to ask regarding the "help" he offered. The discussion you had with him tells you he has thought about your need for help, and also how he can help you. So he does have some sort of idea in mind. When he mentioned calling him, your response was that it wasn't the same as his being at home. Very true. However, while he's not yet ready to be at home, he is apparently ready to do SOMETHING, and had this "something" in mind - maybe he has a plan???? It might be a good idea to ask him about it. An open-ended way to do that might be -

"WH, the other day you mentioned being available to help out. I really DO need your help. I got the sense that you had a plan for how that might work. What does your plan look like?"

Or something like that. This doesn't put pressure on him to move home, but opens the door to hear him out on HIS ideas and advice. The more you allow him to talk about his ideas, his plans with the family (even though it's not about being home for good), it counts.

And hey - don't you still have a bad water heater? This may be one way to open this discussion about the help.

LS:



Yep To PEP!

I've known all along--since d-day--that I bare equal responsibility for the problems in our marriage. (Keep reminding self: I do not take responsbility, however, for his choice to respond to those problems by having an A.)

I guess the more "recent" revelation was the term "shutting him out." It captures a particular issue...do you know what I mean? Marsh and pep both said it...there's the CRUX of it...he just gave me the destination, now I need the roadmap.

Maybe it's just been perfectly obvious to all of you...but hearing "shut out" STRAIGHT from WH = the "a-ha" moment. Do not shut him out...emotionally, sexually, parenting-wise, recreationally, from admiration or affection.

I know. DUH. Call me slow.

BTW...I did apologize for shutting him out post d-day during our convo on Thursday. That was when he countered with something about how I shut him out pre-A. I aplogized for that, too. Humbly and sincerely. I did not, however, ask him to tell me the ways that he was shut out. Darn. Missed opportunity.

RE: the arrest thingy:
I do NOT want to completely relieve him of guilt about the arrest so...maybe my intention/thought is to give him "permission" to transfer MORE of the blame to RT. SHE was the one who called the cops, SHE was the one who wrote the letter. SHE bears primary responsibility for hurting me in that horrible, awful way that you (WH) feel so torn up about. Give H (not WH) some ammo to use against RT.

Do you see the distinction, or am I still giving WH too much credit?

LG, and this is my concern, that he WON'T take ownership of RT's despicable behavior in the court case. He is very much to blame for this. He is the one who brought this down on LS's head. It was her WH who invited this rapist into LS's life and set up the whole scenario. Had he not been having an illicit affair, LS would have never been in jail in the first place.

This is all a consequence of his affair and he very much needs to feel the full force of very appropriate GUILT for the fallout of HIS AFFAIR. GUILT is a powerful motivator for change and she should not stand in its way.

RIGHT ON TARGET

and the body positioning thing .... exact-o-mundo

Pep

Yes, you are. He is equally culpable, LS. This all happened as a result of his affair. He invited her into your marriage like this and this is a consequence. DON'T absolve him that consequence by splitting hairs about who did exactly what. You are in this position because OF HIM.

Sis,

You communicated indirectly about RT's responsibility in the arrest/sentencing with the eye contact. He blinked first - he DID get your point. And you scored with it. He is processing that, certainly. Since that time, haven't you noticed more domestic support from him? He has talked to you more, and has even cried. MIL was probably a prophet in her comment that RT has sealed her own fate. He doesn't even realize how effective the indirect communication has been here.............



SB

This communication stuff is fascinating. It is like learning a new language...how to frame things in a very deliberate way that elicits the reaction and type of response I am seeking.

During the bulk of Thursday's conversation, we were facing one another directly in chairs. We were at the kitchen table, but it is round and we sort of pulled the chairs back away from the table a bit. Looking back, tho, I see how often he stands perpendicular to me, shoulder toward me, averting his eyes. I have always had this feeling of wanting to scootch around and get in front of him.

Related, SB, is there any significance to height? The area by our back door (where the closet is, the backpacks sit and all the coats, boots etc. are put on and removed) is about three steps down from the eating area in the kitchen.

I always consider it a "win" when WH comes UP those stairs...because that is actually entering the "home" part of the house. Sometimes, I stand on the stairs when he stays down in the landing area (it can get crowded down there with the boys and all their outdoor attire). That gives a little more equity in height between us...I'm 5'1" and he's 6'3".

Is this significant and if so, is there a way to use it to my advantage?

SB and Mel have convinced me...I will let that "seed" about the arrest just grow on its own. No intervention by me...

It was a flyer...thanks for bringing it back to earth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> See why I rely on you all??

Sis ...

I was thinking more ping-pong lobs

poetry <~~~ see my other thread

you are wooing him ... do what lovers do ... send poetry & roses

Pep