LS, this thread has taken a most disturbing turn, IMO. I want to state emphatically, as a person who has been here for years and who has recovered her own marriage, that if I were a new person here, Mimi would be on my short list of folks I would hope and pray would take me on. [a short list of 5] She is, bar none, the best Plan Aer I have ever seen in 6 years on this board. Not only did she recover her own marriage from the gates of he11, but she understands Plan A like no other I have seen here. She learned it hands on with the guidance of Steve Harley. It is not an understatement to say that I consider her to be brilliant.

Mimi is not upset because you aren't doing things her way, but because she feels you are making mistakes, LS. She sees you sitting on the train tracks waiting for a train and cares too much to sit there silently while you get hit. She sees the train but many others on this thread DO NOT, because they, although well intentioned, do not have her experience and knowledge. [there are many newer people on this thread who are not experienced at all in Plan A but they have been invited to give their opinions] Rather, they are cheering you on to sit on the tracks because it "makes you feel good" and is what you want to hear. Well, it won't "feel" so good when you are smacked by the train from having a bad strategy. Mimi knows this.

Now, will you get killed for sending a 2nd letter as in my analogy? Of course not. But will it help your situation one bit to tell him about YOUR FEELINGS when he is a mode of unquestionable self centeredness just after your break down this weekend? I don't believe so. Plan A, after all, is about meeting HIS NEEDS. It is not supposed to be a time of expression of YOUR FEELINGS. [Lexxy nailed this dead on] I think the letter puts him on the defensive and forces him to defend why he can't come home. The edges of relationship talk have been exceeded here, IMO.

And most especially, this is not the time to go with your "heart" or your "feelings." Your feelings are the most unreliable of anyone here, LS, because you have powerful emotional investments that, expectedly, impair your judgment.

I don't know if Mimi will be back, but I will say that putting her in a position to have to DEFEND tried and true MB principles from many less experienced people is not very fair. I cannot express to you the great loss it would be if she felt it was too hard to help you anymore. If she has to fight to be able to help you, it may be more than she is willing to invest. That would be a tragic, tragic loss, LS. Please protect this resource for your own sake.

MOVING ON...



I think every good PBL letter starts w/ this sentence...

"This might be the last letter I ever write you."

Powerful beginning.

You should express your love for your WH, and what you need him to do before you will consider reestablishing contact again.

It should have the name, number, e-mail address of your intermediary. He should be told he can reach you by phone ONLY in the case of emergency.

You should use phrases he's used to you. "You asked me to leave you alone." Ect...

I'll see if I can find a good PBL.





Someone who is your advocate is best. They might need to weed out any nasty/angry stuff that might be communicated to them for you. They will need to give you JUST the facts.

You need to prepare to go VERY VERY dark.

He needs to hurt, LS, and believe he will.

Hang in there, LS!

Onward and upward!

~ Marsh

WONDERFUL, DAZE!! Now, you're my girl again... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I agree 1000% with every word that you say in this post.

This is EXACTLY what I did, too..read SAA DAILY..and like I have said..came here mainly FOR SUPPORT...SAA said TO ME: "FOLLOW THIS PLAN AND YOU WILL RECOVER YOUR MARRIAGE"...The disagreements here didn't bother me that much..I knew that I was ONLY GOING TO FOLLOW THE PLAN IN THAT BOOK TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY...

We, as amateurs, can only speak here from our own experiences. I knew that about folks on the forum..BUT DR. HARLEY AND STEVE..they are the EXPERTS..it was their PLANS THAT I TRIED TO FOLLOW...almost my ENTIRE SAA BOOK is HIGHLIGHTED....And yes, I ONLY DIVERGED FROM THE PLANS WHEN DIRECTED BY STEVE..because what I heard from HIM and read in the book was...DO THIS and that's WHAT I DID...

That was MY EXPERIENCE and that's why I share it...and I OWN THAT WAS MY EXPERIENCE...I BELIEVE it's necessary to go BY THE BOOK..unless directed otherwise by the HARLEYS...and I BELIEVE that they would agree would this..but that's MY OPINION...

I also say that I MOST PROFITTED FROM ASSISTANCE FROM THOSE HERE WHO SAID TO ME WHAT I DID NOT WANT TO HEAR....

sis

mimi is still my guiding light

she never gave up on me and never got scared away by the chaos

even she will tell you that she only veered from the strict plan A and Plan B guidelines when suggested to her specifically from Steve Harley

she encouraged me to call Jennifer anytime that i started to go off track

and she supported whatever Jennifer advised

she really does know the plans

she sometimes tells me things i don't want to hear...but they are things that i NEED to hear

she knows that my only goal is to save my marraige and she has been my greatest support

we are both lucky to have her

And I failed to directly mention that MY DEAR, DEAR MEL was the main one on my back telling me what I didn't want to hear and THANK GOD, I LISTENED TO HER and did EXACTLY as she DIRECTED.....

My heart is brimming over with love for Mel who was always there in my darkest hours and got me back on track when I veered off. Again, THANK GOD that I listened to her and didn't go off and do it MY WAY!!

ps
i edited my post above

When my WH was giving me those lines that your WH is giving you..about the movie, etc., bring out the violins <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />, Mel would say, basically, he's BSing you, Mimi..he's giving you crumbs...

And just like you, I would think my H was SPECIAL..for whatever reason...

GARDEN VARIETY, WH, regardless of his occupation, personality style, etc., still screwing another woman and not coming back home to you.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mimi <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just read this. I'm sorry that you feel that this is so. I don't understand how that could be the case, though. Dang, this is just a forum. Take what we say or leave it. We don't REALLY know you and you don't REALLY know us. I'll speak for myself. GET WHAT YOU WANT FROM ME AND TRASH THE REST..USE ME UP..DISAGREE WITH ME OR WHATEVER..IMO, the forum is WIN-WIN..take it or leave it...A RESOURCE that you can TAKE FROM..like picking berries off a tree..keep the good ones..trash the rest..you don't have to take all the berries home... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

This is about YOU, Sis, IMO..how you are CHOOSING to use and to VIEW the forum.

Why are you seeking approval of strangers on a forum? I'm only asking you this in case you want to take a look at this for your own PERSONAL RECOVERY or in your THERAPY sessions.


If you CHOOSE to send a ZILLION LETTERS to your WH, go ahead. It's your life. I may disagree but SO WHAT???? Who am I in your life? Someone who thinks she is helping...wanting to give back what I have received IS ALL..If I'm not being helpful to you, DISREGARD MY ADVICE...and listen to someone else that you feel is MORE HELPFUL to you...

IMO, it is you that is blowing this out of proportion...



What WAR? War because we disagree?

I can't see how you or your marriage is not being helped. You have gotten lots of good advice from a variety of perspectives. Of course, we are not going to all agree. We speak from our own personal experiences. As I have said before, THE HARLEYS are the PROFESSIONALS. My goal has been to support THEIR APPROACH and to encourage you to listen TO THEM. This is THEIR WEBSITE, you know.

And for me, I'm LESS CONCERNED about the LETTER than overall changes that I noticed in your MINDSET..which, I think, resulted in the LBing on the day of the TIRE SHOPPING...and then continued on with the writing of THE LETTER...IMO, you were doing a great PLAN A and then SOMETHING CHANGED..and, I think, it would have been helpful if we helped you figure out what had changed INSIDE OF YOU...



What in the world, Sis? Focus on the MB PLANs to recover your marriage whether you come back to this forum or not. That's what matters..not what's going on here....

I'm trying to put my finger on this..this need to stand up, put your foot down and set things straight with people...

My opinion..I think it's difficult for you to accept and acknowledge your POWERLESSNESS...you have no POWER over disagreements HERE or folks having disagreements with you..or whether your wayward H has certain CDs in his car..YOUR WORDS HAVE NO POWER OVER HIM in a letter...

YOU ONLY HAVE CONTROL OVER YOURSELF....PERIOD...

So let us carry on with our BICKERING..SO WHAT if we disagree and are bickering out here..that happens in life...

Your job is to carry on with WORKING THE MB PLANS...You see?

i'll be finished with my little rant in a second...

but I just thought of the perfect example when I was GOING THROUGH THIS...

I never much agreed with Orchid's REVERSE BABBLE and the WH/H thing even when I was in PLAN A many moons ago...

But some days, given her TIME ZONE, Orchid was the only one available here, on a Saturday afternoon, when I most needed help..freaking out when my H was spending weekends with the OW...

Orchid was RIGHT THERE to hear my RANTING, RAVING, CRYING and asking the WHY MEs....

and I was SO THANKFUL..getting from her what I needed and trashing the rest..OK, that was putting to the extreme..but I said it that way to make my point...

Love you, too, MY DEAR, ORCHID.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Excellent post, Mimi.

[color:"red"] A+ [/color]

~ Marsh

What I learned about Mimi ... she is a literal, linear and logical thinker ... which is [color:"red"]valuable and life-saving in a crisis[/color]

.... but Mimi does not "get" non-literal April Fools jokes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

*so THERE*

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lilsis;


This is quite dramatic! I think a few of us saw the wheels falling off before this letter. I think a few of us have been worried about your energy level and Plan A ability for the last week. Its not sudden at all.


Really? Do you really mean this? Can we disagree and still post here? Who did you direct this to? A typical poster who thinks your choice is antithetical to MB'ers. Am I one of those?
I don't want to add to your stress.
If I disagree, I always tell you why. And my only hope is so that you can use anything I have to say to adjust or correct.
I guess I thought we already were "respectfully dialoguing and conversing"
I've seen much worse disagreements than this on MB's.

I think everyone here has your best interests at heart. Mabye different approaches....

Dear LilSis,

I too did a Plan A before I came to MB, in fact for a loong time, too long. And I mixed in a lot of R talk, LB'd, wrote supportive letters, cried, felt overwhelmed, hopeless, and hopeful. Thing is, I did it in a vacum w/o benefit of people having been there, done that. I could have certainly benefited from others pointing out to me things that aren't going to work, and support and encourage me on things that did.

I've read you thread, you are a special person who draws people to yourself bc of your light. You also have a way with words that is beatiful.

That being said, I have gotten the sense from you in the past that if may not look at differing opinions with welcome, you kinda shut down. I suggested to you to call the Harleys a week ago, it was ignored. Ok, all advice given is a suggestion, granted, but I think what I and others saw was an escalation of something going on inside you, and denial that perhaps Plan A was drawing to a close. I also saw something that seem to be crossing the line in terms of focusing so much attention on your WH, as well as the attention on MB. I can understand both, but I don't think it is healthy for your recovery. I also wanted to interject this in the recent past, kind of a reality check, but didn't want to get beat up by others on your thread. Ok, here goes;

You may want to recover your M with ever fiber of your being, you may do the most perfect Plan A ever known here, you may do a great Plan B as well with again the best PBL out there, but a M takes two willing people. You cannot control whether or not your WH wants to be M'd to you and be with you. You may not recover your M, part of this relationship is outside your scope of control. I know this is not your hope or goal, nor is it mine is supporting you, but my other goal is to just support you, however your M ends up.

I pray you come to know a better place inside and find peace.

nab

LilSis,

Obviously, I owe you a HUGE APOLOGY. I know I made some DJ's about your situation over the last few days. I certainly did not mean to upset or anger you.

I think someone here made mention of posters having a lot "invested" (emotionally) in this. I'd say that's pretty accurate.

I guess I can see why you felt a bit attacked, but I don't think that was anyone's intention...certainly not mine. But I know I felt very worried about you and I guess that worry/concern manifested itself in DJ's.

I was vocalizing observations about the changes in your tone. I thought you wanted that..to have stuff pointed out.

What I see/read on this thread is that a lot of people genuinely care about you and are rooting for you.

I am relatively new to the MB concepts and admittedly ignorant. I will keep reading, keep praying and keep my mouth shut from this point on.

I really do hope you come back here though. There is invaluable WISDOM and EXPERIENCE in so many of the posters here.

Again, I'm sincerely sorry for my role in any of this.

Sis,

I've been thinking bout you all day and wondering how your day has been going.

Hey Sis,

You made me jump out of the woodwork again. Everyone is worried about you. I hope you are doing ok. Please check in when you feel up to it k

Dear Wonderful (((((((((LilSis))))))))

I am coming out of the lurkdom "woodwork" so to speak, to tell you that I believe in you and think you are a wonderful, amazing woman, the kind of person I'd be proud to have as a friend.

I do not contribute to your thread, (but have been with you since page 1), because I am an emotional "sunshine blowing cheerleader" type and don't feel like I can offer any valuable lifechanging advice, even though I have been a daily lurker for three 1/2 years and have a happily recovered marriage (my husband was remorseful on d-day and willing to attempt recovery from that point...though a very difficult process, certainly not what you have faced since last summer).

I guess I just wanted to come on to try and call you out, to come back, to return to this support system. We all LOVE you, Lilsis...every one of us 10,000 that read and/or post here. You are strong, inspiring, vivacious, infectious, articulate, intelligent, loving, caring....etc.

I feel like I know you, know Mimi, et al, through reading for over three years, even though noone knows me because I don't post. I see how much Mimi and all care so much for you...we all have gotten emotionally invested in seeing you get what you so deserve...your H back!

I can just imagine how utterly weak you feel today, feeling as though you have lost nearly EVERYTHING at this point, incluing your daily support system here. You haven't. We are all here for you, lifting you up in constant prayer. I can't imagine that there is even one person here who does not deeply care for you and for the successful recovery of your marriage.

I have had the honor to be a part of helping a BS "in real life" just recently, when she found out about her WH A. This site helps me so much to tangibly support her. Sometimes I feel like a walking advertisement for the MB concepts. I don't know why I feel insecure in offering help in a "virtual" setting,but at any rate, reading on this site for so long has prepared me for helping this woman IRL, in the same way Mimi and others have been gifted to help you here.

Come back, Lilsis. I know you hurt so badly and are feeling kicked while you are so down. I just can't emphasize enough how much we all LOVE you and don't want to see you down, or see you leave your support system. I just don't believe this is/was the intention of anyone here who follows your story and encourages you on either tangibly or intangibly, through prayer, thought and/or written word.

One thing I noticed in the last week or so, and you mention in one of your last responses, is that your spirituality was not shining as brightly as it has been in recent weeks. Many times in earlier threads you talked about how God was upholding you, or that you were going to read the Bible or how you were praying.

This is so key Lilsis, get back to this...drown yourself in the salve of God's Word. It is often the only thing that kept me alive during process. Don't go a day without reading God's Words to YOU...don't go more than a moment without conversing with our Almighty God throughout the day....HE will NEVER disappoint, NEVER let you down...He is the God of MIRACLES....HE is with you and HE has a PERFECT PLAN....ask HIM what it is and follow HIM.

I love you, lilsis...and I know that sounds corny and I almost deleted it...especially since you don't know me from a hole in the wall since I am only a lurker on your thread. But, I ask you to please come back to your support system here. You really have done such a wonderful job thus far and I eagerly anticipate the day when you report that your WH is BROKEN and READY.

Love and many prayers to you ((((((LILSIS))))))
Glad

Sis,

I will very respectfully avoid the analysis of conflict here. Just don't have the time LOL! nuf' said on all this anyway.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


To answer your question about the "second" letter.

I had been thinking that a letter would have been a good idea around the time you wrote your letter in the first place. I was surprised and happy that you wrote a letter, and then when the advice was overwhelmingly against it, I took a careful day or so before I told you about my thoughts in support of sending it. Letters are nice that way - you can hang on to them until the time is right!

Then, you had the blow up with your WH, and his response to it was quite interesting to me, frankly. After the drama, the LBing, and the rest, I would have expected him to have some things to say to you that would not have been what he did say.

Considering that the expected mindset would have been that he WANTS you to move away emotionally, his responses and interactions have not been supporting or evidentiary of this. Some examples over the last few days: He held you a number of times when you were upset or crying - supporting closeness. He has increased his assistance to you, particularly during a crisis - supporting your needs. He called to check on your wellness - supporting closeness. He opened up a confidence regarding his inner thoughts to you - supporting closeness. He stated that he knew you did not deserve this - supporting understanding of your pain, and either sympathy or empathy (I am not sure which).

I have just seen some movement on his side, coupled with your observation that you notice the change in amount of time spent with you (and your speculation of possible decreasing time with RT), and wondered if some sort of letter would be in order. You did that letter, and it seems to me that it is appropriate and well within the Plan A guidelines per SAA and the Harleys, so it was something that I did and still do support.

Letters have a way of being kept. People read them and reread them, especially letters like yours. Yes, I am assuming he read the letter. You know your WH - and like I said, you will know whether or not he read the letter by the things he will say. Your words are likely to appear in things he says, and this will give you the answer to the question. You could also simply ASK HIM. It might make for a very intimate discussion - if you just ask, and LET HIM TALK. Don't ask any questions beyond, "did you read it". He may or may not go on after that, and you will know if/when the time is right to ask. But limit it to "did you read it". Let it go after that, LilSis. That is, if you ask at all.

About a second letter? That really depends. What did SH say about Plan A? If he advises a longer time in Plan A, then maybe another letter, or just a card, but short, yes. But if Plan A is nearly over, I am in the camp of nothing else in writing until the PBL.

Schoolbus:

I highly respect your opinion regarding communication patterns but regarding WSes I have concerns about your viewpoint. What do you think about the MB viewpoint? Have you read SAA and HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS? Do you agree that WS' are addicted?



MY WH DID ALL OF THIS AND MORE..WHEN HE HAD ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION WHATSOEVER OF RECONCILING WITH ME...

And I don't agree that he was like this because he was a salesman...

HE WAS A GARDEN-VARIETY CAKE-EATING WS..WHO WANTED TO KEEP ME AS AN OPTION IF IT DIDN'T WORK OUT WITH THE OW....

I absolutely do not believe that the behaviors of WS' are COMPARABLE to the BEHAVIORS of NORMAL FUNCTIONING HUMAN BEINGS..

Maybe this is OK if you are using ADDICTS as your reference group..ADDICTS who will beg and steal from their parents..ADDICTS who will do whatever it takes to maintain their drug supply...

STEVE HARLEY TOLD ME OVER AND OVER AGAIN.."YOU'VE GOT TO GET THIS..your HUSBAND IS ADDICTED...regardless of anything else, "YOU'VE GOT TO GET THIS"....