This wednesday we see a counselor. I have so much to say and yet, why should I. My wife has heard it over and over.

What I want is a plan for regular SF and I expect there will be a plan for me which I will follow to the letter.

To save time, should I just say we have a sex frequency problem and I do not understand why?

God, that sounds weird. HELP!

I have no idea how good the couselor is, but I did tell him we needed a plan as quick as possible.

My wife still refuses to discuss with out over defending and knocking me.

My wife says she can't wait to give her side of
the story. Well, she waited for four years with no sex. I am sure I will be labeled the devil incarnate, satan spawn, and the reason for all world ills.

Do any of you have any ideas on how I should broach and expidite this--I do not want weeks of the history channel.

Hi bout,

Long time no see!

I'm glad to hear this....inspite of your doubts about it's effectiveness....I am really hoping that you guys picked a good one! One who will help your wife HEAR what you have been saying...and help YOU hear why she has been ignoring you.

Can you just please keep an open mind????

<small>[ May 25, 2003, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Did I understand this correctly? You have now gone 4 years without sex? Why are you still in the marriage?

Bryan ---

you need to go read more of his stuff --- there are REASONS.

Bout ---

I think you need to realize there maybe FAR MORE THAN SF missing from your marriage - and you may have some SERIOUS work to do before the SF situation CHANGES.

Keep an open mind and work with the counselor - We're praying that things change at your house --- a lot of things.

Just remember prayers and counseling sometimes go far differently than we expect them to go.

Jan

Tell the counselor you need sex once a week ans she has withheld sex for various reasons for 4 years. Tell the counselor you cannot live without sex anymore.

Then see if you can tape or note your wife's yelling, screaming, stomping, heinous response. The counselor will be a witness. To use in the next counseling session or in divorce court.

Also bring up to the counselor that you need your wife to sign a contract regarding sex once a week. If she will not listen or sign the contract or come thru on the (once a week) sex after the session is over, then you have a much worse problem.

Another thing. If a woman would rather "divorce you" than "have sex with you once a week" this tells you something.

IT TELLS YOU SHE NEARLY HATES YOU AND HAS NO ATTRACTION TO YOU OR YOUR BODY AND DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS. (for whatever reasons)

<small>[ May 25, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

baba -- you are really off the track here. Sex is NOT the only issue in this marriage.

There are other issues that probably need to be solved first.

He might get an agreement to work on both at the same time - but I doubt he'll get any kind of a contract for sex, since there was sex along with other issues and it wasn't changing - or getting his attention until she began to withhold sex.

I've BEEN there - if SEX had been the first call off the counselors desk - I'd have told them both to go scr*w a cat and walked out. Sex requires intimacy for a woman - and if that is missing - then it needs to be restored on some level before sex is a requirement - otherwise it becomes little more than prostitution or sexual slavery.

bout's wife was working on the marriage before he did his 'turn around' and getting nowhere with him, by his own admission. She isn't buying into his 'turn around' so he needs to work with the counselor to not only convince her that it's real - but be sure it's what she needs. His needs were being met for a long time before she started shutting down.

If he stays open and works toward a common solution - he will get a lot further with counseling than if he walks into the counseling session with a lot of demands, up front.

Jan

I agree with Jan.

I would mention the lack of SF. But I would not harp on it. And certainly not suggest that SF is the only or even most important thing you are hoping to get from counselling. BTDT. Took me 5 years of counselling to realize I was slogging down a path that did not lead to my desired destination.

Use the lack of SF as a warning light. As an indication that things are going poorly in the marriage.

Tell the counsellor you want to understand why your wife is not willing to engage in SF with you. Tell the counsellor you would do what you can to provide those things your wife feels are missing and to cut down on those things that annoy your wife. And that you need the counsellor's help to find out what those things are because communication between the two of you has broken down.

Not only is this much more likely to score points with your wife (compared to demanding SF immediately), it will almost certainly score points with the MC. Especially if your wife responds by saying what a jerk and a liar you are and how nothing you say can be believed. And how all your promises in the past went unfulfilled so how can she be expected to believe in your current promises.

So be honest. Don't lie. But be judicious in what parts of the truth you start out with.

Since I don't know the background, go by Jan and Hold on this not me.

Interesting comments.
We have been to a number of counselors since 99 and I just got cut off on the SF. Obviously, I am very disappointed.
I should have done things the Harley way.
In his tapes, he talks about how he sees the H and W separately to get each of their takes PRIVATELY re what the problems are.
Then he sees them together, commenting specifically regarding what each/both must STOP IMMEDIATELY to end the many minor/major things they are doing that hurt each other that has built or maintained distance. ...and then he will give them a plan to work on before the next session.
Pathetically, all those therapy hours for me/us have not had any of this!
Your chances are great that this counselor will make things worse.
Call Steve Harley. (as soon as I think I can get my W to join me--I will be doing just this)
I'm serious...all the others are highly likely to be charlatans.
..and if you go to the session Wed, keep your mouth mostly shut. I have never seen a man, yet who has gone to a joint session and found the "therapist" to be concerned about a man's needs. (Except MB)
Couple therapy is truly a dangerous place for men. It's about protecting the women in their victim status. In distressed marriages, therapists see what the man has done wrong.
I wish I could say that it is more balanced, but everything I read and witness, says that this is true.
Jan, I appreciate your comments--there is a lot more to work on besides SF
r

Thanks All for your comments. They run true to the gammut of my emotions from being staunch to over nice.

Holdingontoit, I hear you loud and clear. I will take your approach, stay calm but shoot right for the communication deficit resulting in little to no sex and the whys of our ratchetted up anger towards each other.

Roger, seeing as my wife was trained as a counselor, I tend to agree with you too. Many times this couselor thing can be male bashing, I hope not.

Am I wrong to expect a plan, at least for open communication and time together, or do we just do our usual--withdraw and ruminate (without anger outbursts).

I have done some real soul searching and have come to the realization that I do intend to stay. I would miss my lifestyle, my kids, and yes even my wife (good memories).

I wish that her priorities would include me, but I have a feeling this summers slice of my life will be no sex as a pay back for demanding sex.

I also think my wife is pleased that she will not have to give in to my desires. She will get comfortable with the calmness and get her arm jewelry back for social engagements and I will be back in my spare room masturbating--LOL

At the counselor's, How should I ask her if our sex life will improve?

Dear Bout
Don't even mention sex or the lack thereof.
Talk about how valuable MB has been for you, and especially the HNHN book.
Tell W and counselor that you are very interested in meeting Ws needs and want to do this better--that this is a fair and mutual thing--and that maybe counseling can promote that process.
DON'T MENTION THAT YOUR NEEDS ARE NOT BEING MET!
Tell them that MB seems to be the only approach that works for you and that you feel strongly that you can benefit from counseling if it uses that approach--and you have doubts about all others.
...you want them to use Harley stuff, because he is one of a few authors/researchers who take a man's SF needs seriously.
BUT DON'T BE UP FRONT ABOUT THIS. The feminist agenda dictates that men are too interested in sex--they don't want to provide it--they need to teach us to be less interested in sex, etc.
Just try to channel it toward Harley materials--and if that isn't accepted, suggest Michele Wiener Davis (see her site divorcebusting.com)--but don't mention her current book, YET--The sex starved marriage.
Let them both know that you want a structured study as part of counseling--if you don't, you'll be expected to go back week after week, yak yak yak with NO plan
I did that--and it is just awful!!
Good luck
r

Maybe if the woman counselor does not care about your need for sex and does not seem to be helping in other areas, you should try a MALE counselor. I think it is wierd that you "have to play games and politics" with your counselor. You have to almost "lie" to the counselor to get them to "give you want you need"...."or what wife needs".

I believe in being yourself in front of counselors but that is just me. I am myself in front of most people. I rarely hide anymore. Except in business deals, there I can play a good game sometimes.

<small>[ May 28, 2003, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Bout,

Is there any way to arrange to see the counsellor separately, at least once each? I see a session with you and your W possibly hurting more than helping.

She doesn't listen to you because there is so much she wants to say that she doesn't feel you've listened to, and vice-versa. I still seriously suggest a convo with your W where you just listen. You don't have to agree with her point of view, but you need to have a convo where you do nothing but try to SEE what her point of view is. The purpose here is not to fix anything but the fact that she doesn't feel heard.

Not feeling listened to and understood by your H ranks somewhere near repeated farting on a list of women's turn-ons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have a feeling this summers slice of my life will be no sex as a pay back for demanding sex </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. (Romantic relationships seem to be slightly different because it seems REACTION = ACTION x 2) You are not going to get anywhere pursuing her having SF with you in spite of her feelings.

NO SF = W DOESN'T WANT SF
WIFE DOESN'T WANT SF = REASONS

therefore...

NO SF = REASONS

And, as you know (mathematically speaking), if you want to effect one side of the equation, you have to do something to the other side, otherwise you will not have equality. In other words, you have to address the reasons in order to affect the no SF situation.

<small>[ May 28, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

I do agree with rojer that most counsellors today do seem to be biased toward the female viewpoint. We have seen several and none of them looked at wife and said anything remotely like "if he does a reasonable job of treating you decently, are you prepared to have regular sex or do you want to get divorced?" Whereas they all told me to get with the program and stop WANTING more sex! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> With the clear implication that it was wrong, or at least immature, for me to want sex more often than wife did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> And God forbid that I should dare to express the opinion that I would rather be divorced than ever again go 15 months without sex! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

As for seeing a male therapist, futile. No woman that I have ever hear of who withholds SF would agree to talk to one. And even if she did, it is a no win situation for the husband.

If the male counsellor agrees with the husband that frequency of sex is important, then it just reinforces for the wife that all men are pigs and she tunes both husband and counsellor out. If the male counsellor DISagrees with the husband that frequency of sex is important, then the husband is dead in the water. No way to EVER recover from that one. Might as well kill the counsellor right then and there. He has just guaranteed that you will get more enthusiastic sex in prison than you ever will with your wife!

Sorry baba, but for guys in this day and age radical honesty is NOT the best policy - unless you talk to one of the Harleys. With any other counsellor a guy who goes into the first session assuming he will be treated fairly is far too likely to get blown out of the water. A situation from which it may literally take months or years to recover. I cannot in good conscience suggest that any man take that chance.

I would much rather he stretch the budget and talk to one of the Harleys. Otherwise, stick to pressing for better communication. Promise (and back it up with action) that you will meet wife's needs if she would only disclose what they are. And stick to the politically correct party line that sex is a measure of progress (which will fix itself if the other issues are solved), rather than a goal in itself.

Let the counsellor see for themselves that no amount of progress on your part results in any change in wife's behavior regarding SF. Only then might the counsellor be willing to timidly and apologetically suggest to wife that maybe she could try (if it isn't too painful) to make a teensy weensy little bit of effort to give some thought to perhaps engaging in a little bit more sex. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let the counsellor see for themselves that no amount of progress on your part results in any change in wife's behavior regarding SF. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bout's made progress? When? I'd love the details! How exciting!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by *Takola*:
<strong>Bout's made progress? When? I'd love the details! How exciting!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't we both wish!

Not exactly what I meant. I take as truth that Mrs. Bout will not disclose her true needs to Mr. Bout. Because she doesn't trust him. With good reason.

I am hoping that with a counsellor involved she WILL disclose her true needs. Then it is up to Mr. Bout to put up or shut up. Hopefully he will put up and deliver. Do whatever he can to satisfy her needs. Despite the continuing lack of SF.

It is at THAT point that I imagine the counsellor might step in and put some pressure on Mrs. Bout. Not before.

Clearly if Mrs. Bout takes the brave step of disclosing her true needs and then Mr. Bout complains, or falls down in the job, he will get (or in this case, not get) exactly what he deserves.

I am merely saying that if he pushes for sex BEFORE he proves his bona fides to the counsellor, she will undoubtedly write him off as the typical male pig and he will never get anyhere.

The problem is that it is very difficult for any counsellor to determine how much truth is contained in what each spouse says. The man says he is a saint. The woman says he is a jerk. The truth probably somehere in between. How is the counsellor supposed to know which end of the spectrum is closer to the truth? Or how much SF he "deserves" based on his present behavior.

On the other hand, if the man does not ask for more sex the dynamic is very different. Man asks how he can improve his behavior. Woman discloses her needs. Man improves his behavior. Doesn't matter how much. All that matters is that wife admits he IS better than he used to be.

At that point, hard for the counsellor to deny that the couple should be sharing MORE SF than they were sharing before. However much they were sharing before, and however much he eventually wants, and however much the counsellor (or the wife) think that he "deserves" based on his current, all become irrelevant. If his behavior now is better than it was before, then they should be sharing SF MORE than before. If they are sharing SF the same, or less, hard to deny that the burden is now on the wife to do her part to increase the frequency or enthusiasm.

Much easier to get a counsellor to agree that improvement by the husband should result in improvement by the wife than to obtain agreement on how much is enough or how much the husband "deserves" based on his current behavior.

The other benefit is that it changes the man's focus. Instead of concentrating on whether he is getting more sex, he is concentrating on whether his behavior is improving toward his wife. His immediate goal is to be the "good child" in the eyes of the counsellor. So that he can get the counsellor to side with him in stage 2.

That appeases his Taker (frustration, anger, resentment). He doesn't feel he is getting "ripped off" if he improves his behavior and wifey doesn't come across with any SF. Instead he feels he is pulling the rope that raises the big rock so he can drop it on wifey's head later.

Either way he wins. If wifey comes across with SF he got what he wanted. If she continues to withhold, at least he gets to indulge his Taker and drop the big rock on her head (i.e. seeing the shock and dismay on her face when the female counsellor says "look deary, he did his part by working on his behavior and if you want this marriage to work you better start putting out more!"). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Wish I had known that 6 years ago. Would have saved both of us lots of heartache. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ May 28, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: holdingontoit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't we both wish!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

This is a very very very good post, HOI! I agree with you on this.

What I am concerned about in Bout's case is that his W goes in and vents and vents. What does that do? It hurts Bout. And then Bout has his turn. What's that going to do? Hurt his W. That's why I think that they should go separately at first. Because the hurting has to stop before anything - including SF - gets any better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by *Takola*:
<strong>That's why I think that they should go separately at first. Because the hurting has to stop before anything - including SF - gets any better.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed. Mrs. Hold and I always went separately in the early stages. Not necessarily the first session. But always the second or third.

HOTI posted:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for seeing a male therapist, futile. No woman that I have ever hear of who withholds SF would agree to talk to one. And even if she did, it is a no win situation for the husband. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh WRONG-O, Hoti,

I begged to see a counselor for months, was never in a position to see a FEMALE counselor EVER. Didn't have one. I spoke with the first male counselor, and he suggested that I not do the 'no-sex' in favor of H seeing a counselor and getting some serious counselling for his anger issues. I gladly, willingly agreed. Counseling lasted almost two months, and H decided that he was getting SEX so I must be HAPPY. I again spoke with that counselor - and he suggested that I 'remove myself from a very HIGH RISK situation' (he had severe anger issues) - aka: NO SEX. I thought about it - and with the help of a few friends who had been through marital problems - came up with what I now know as a PLAN A type behavior, but with a lot of backup and support of friends. He moved us to another location, another attempt to isolate me and the kids, didn't work.

Another male counselor, "NO SEX - BAD IDEA" so I start giving again. By this time, I'm to the point he comes home for meals, sex, sleep, showers, laundry. Job dumpes - he relocates us again.

Another MALE Counselor (his choice this time, even his TIME) --- H needs are SPACE, SEX, ATTENTION, CLEAN HOUSE, NO KIDS. (SORRY, excuse the p*ss out of me - we have four.) I did the put the kids to bed before he gets home, try to fulfill the other 'needs' and got nowhere - except he took money for meals, comes home now for sex, sleep, showers, laundry. Whoooptidodaday!

Okay --- I needed someone who wanted to find a cure for his problem - and not make me a class A SERVANT.

I was tired of meeting his needs! Mine were being ignored and my health was in the toilet - trying to keep up with all of it.

Counselor -- WHY are you still having SEX with a man who treats you like a prostitute?

Heck if I know! I QUIT. I also quit doing his laundry, QUIT asking when he was coming home, QUIT cooking for him, QUIT being here when he finally decided to come home, and ESSENTIALLY QUIT being a wife. Well, about three months later - he finally packed his clothes and moved out.

Bout doesn't think there is much similarity between him and my ex... But during that last three months, several times, my ex came home while I was here and did the dishes, or played with the kids for thirty minutes, complained about the house, or some other such thing, then pointed out to me how much he had CHANGED, and that I needed to start doing 'things' for him again.

The only real difference I can see between my ex and bout - is that bout has been telling his wife longer how he's changed. I haven't SEEN the changes, and I bet she hasn't SEEN the changes either. He is TELLING her he's changed, but his attitude when he's doing things that he perceives are filling her needs still sucks rotten raw eggs and smells like day old processed cow feed.

The counselor doesn't make NEARLY as much difference as the willingness of the two to get together on the issues.

Jan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The counselor doesn't make NEARLY as much difference as the willingness of the two to get together on the issues. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kudos, Jan!

Yes, bout does spend more time trying to convince his W he has changed than he does in making any significant meaningful changes. Saying something doesn't do much good, though. I have long since realized that he is really here to hear how his W should have SF with him no matter what he does or how she feels, and to have people sympathize with him. So why do I keep beating my head against the wall... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />