Came back from the "visit". It was... you might say, it went well, but also less than I hoped for.

She asked me to only stay for half an hour "this time".
She invited me before anyone was there, except for her father and mother (and her and the boys). But she didnt tell me noone else would be there.
She made it sound like she expected some of them to be there when she talked to me beforehand, and they ARE cronically late. dunno. sigh.

Got to hug my boys and watch them play for a bit. that was good. My wife engaged me in conversation a bit, about "hooked on phonics". That was ok. (in the back room, with noone else seeing we are getting along ok. sigh)

But, I actually engaged her mother in a little conversation. it seemed to go ok. Which was good, because she's hated me, ever since I tried exposing to her what her daughter was doing. (her father's fine. just her mother <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> )

That alone, could be the one positive thing to take away from this evening. The rift between her family and me, has to be a major factor in her reasons not to reconcile with me. So if this could start a new chapter on that... it would be a very good thing indeed.

Just curious... if you don't want feedback in the form of advice... why do you post on the forum?

oops.. lost hte message.. hunting...

(copied from my longer, "original thread" somewhere ...
"Why do I post here"

Because,

• its kinda like a diary
  
• it's nice to chat to people about the situation, and I cant afford to "chat" with steve about it that often
  
• i could use encouragement to keep working on my marriage
  
• i could use encouragement that steve's advice is actually good (but ironically with all this plan B talk, i feel like people have mostly been talking against it. It really seemed to me like everyone was saying "you need your wife's repect NOW! you need to go to plan B NOW!)
  
• steve doesnt always fully fill in details on how I follow his advice.
  eg: steve says, "try to encourage her to look into researching together, what a great marriage would look like". But I'm finding it difficult to come up with ways to encourage her into doing so.

PS: I didnt say I did not want ANY advice. I just dont want people telling me what to do next.

She... Just... Called me... and invited me to participate in an online quest thing.(in a group)

she's never done that before.

this is... a very nice surprise.

off to play

...

sigh.. found out that it was prompted by someone else.
but still nice she called to invite me.

Sorry to be ignorant but what are these things anyway? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

she plays "final fantasy online". which is a "massively multiplayer online game".

you do quests and stuff with other people.

My son would probably like this. He's played these games since it all started and still loves it. I don't think he's ever tried the online stuff though.

Well how did the evening of game playing go?

going to hopefully be talking to my wife this morning, if she keeps her word about giving us some time to talk, before I pick up the children today.

This is basically the last real time we'll get to talk before I have to go talk to lawyers and file my response to her divorce notice.

she's always claimed that things cant work out between us becuase she needs to "not be snooped on any more", and other things.

but she told me last night online, that even if I agreed in some form to everything she wants, she couldnt tell me that she would definately work on reconciliation with me.


Say a prayer for me, that a miracle happens today, if you will.

Prayer said.

Good luck techie!

well.. unfortunately, no sudden visible change of heart from her, from our talk that day.

kinda wierd.
I asked her beforehand, to think about "things we could do, to make her happy to be married to me again".

She arrives, and tells me she has kinda thought of stuff. But turns out it is not anything for her to be happy about marriage to me. It is "things for us to do", but just offers me to potentially have a family activity day together regularly, once a week. "for their benefit, and to give us a friendship one day".

I said that wasnt what I asked her for, and pushed her about what could be done for her to be comfortable in marriage.
She just brought up the standard "no trust between us" mantra. I tried to remind her that trust is built, and is the result of recovery, not the basis for it, but she did not acknowlege that, as usual.

A big issue between us, was that she likes to flirt, and especially receive that sort of attention online. I would bug her about that a lot, and that was one of the main causes for our arguments.

Somewhere in there, I told her that I had done a lot of self-examining, and I felt that I could be ok with that, IF she showed me that she wasnt looking to pursue any other relationship any more.

The then switched to talking that she felt "suffocated" in our house. I said we could move.

Then she said goodbye, and left.

Followup: she "felt sick" wednesday, and did not show up for our regular wednesday "dinner before picking up the kids". sent her father instead.

but, oddly enough, when I popped online a bit, she invited me to a group thing. even after I had a brief bit of continuation of the serious talk with her.

things were busy, so didnt talk much... but she was fairly friendly when we did.

The biggest issue I can see right off the bat is that rather than accept that her answer for the moment is "no" you put the pressure on and continued to push and argue and even beg a bit and her reaction to that was aversion and maybe even nausea.

So that approach does not get you where you want to go.

It does not create the environment fertile for recovery.

Right here...

A big issue between us, was that !!!!she likes to flirt, and especially receive that sort of attention online!!!!. I would bug her about that a lot, and that was one of the main causes for our arguments.

Somewhere in there, I told her that I had done a lot of self-examining, and !!!I felt that I could be ok with that!!!, IF she showed me that she wasnt looking to pursue any other relationship any more

...is where you would have lost my respect man to woman in her shoes.

One of the major obstacles to reconciliation, is going to be the trust factor. After her first online EA, I got her to grudgingly agree to allowing me to keep logging software to see what she does. but obviously, this was not a "POJA" type agreement (although she seemed happy enough with it initially).

This gave ME some level of trust in her, but ruined her feelings of trust(or something) for me.

How can we handle this, for any kind of potential reconciliation? Clearly, I need to have some basis to trust her in this area, and she also need to feel confident that I will be able to trust her in this manner, or she believes we'll end up in a similar predicament, with me always fighting with her [from my perspective, because I feel angry/scared that she's going down the same EA type road with another man again.]

The typical MB type approach, would seem to be that the BS would actually get to have all this logging software, and the WS would agree to it, because they want to rebuild trust with the BS. Trouble is... clearly, that aint gonna happen here.

critical background: My wife has ALWAYS been kinda over the edge, reguarding what she considers certain areas of "privacy". For example, her purse. She went ballistic if I happened to look through her purse for whatever reason.
I know that this can be a 'female' type thing, and its not that uncommon for females to get protective about their purses... but this is waaaay beyond that. She would go ballistic about it.

Similarly, a common "cosy" thing for couples to do, is to read a book "together"... however... she cant stand that. She cant stand me reading a book over her shoulder. She says that it "makes her uncomfortable" (to say the least!)


It would be evident that she feels like having logging stuff on her computers, is even worse than that.

Soooo... any suggestions for some kind of middle ground?


I think Owl suggested a while back, that she only play, while I was there. I personally think that is reasonable, but I suspect she will not. She would probably complain that i'm just wanting her to do that, so that I can "read over her shoulder" in real time.


Would anyone have suggestions for me on either some variant on this, or a different approach, or just a different way for me to present that concept, that might sound more acceptible to her?
(we've already discussed on these boards, that her quitting the game, is "not likely". So, that would be nice, but I dont see that happening either)

Well sure there are plenty of ways you can negotiate this but you are putting the cart before the horse.

That's a poja issue. A recovery issue. You are not in recovery.

She is saying no to the marriage and no to you...she doesn't want to play she isn't interested at this time in any sort of compromise or trust building.

I dont think it's an out-of-order thing. This issue is consistently the thing that comes up the most, any time she actually agrees to talk to me about the potential of reconciliation. She abbrevieates it, and states the block for our marriage as, "no trust". But the fully stated issue, is "no trust for her friendships with other people".
She wants me to get off her back about all her various online friendships. (she doesnt really have any others now). But based on our past experience of the 2 years before D-day, she doesnt not believe I am capable of doing so. I complained about everyone who flirted with her, and she did not show disapprove for.

She is a "people person" ^2. She sees her ability to have close friendships as an integral to who she is. There are many people online who are not a danger, that she talks to... and she sent them all Christmas packages to their homes. That's like 15 people.

Now, why she cant be happy with having these friendships OPENLY with me, is another issue, that is unfathomable. I've tried going down that road, and hit a roadblock. But I'm explaining to you why I view this as the critical issue.
This is the fodder that she used to her mother to turn her against me. "He wont let me have any friends".

So, unless I can present a workable solution to this, that is credible, and liveable, to both her and I... there can be no reconciliation.

There have been some positive signs from her otherwise. However, I believe that she is not allowing herself to move further towards reconciliation, when there is a problem between us that she views as both unsolvable, and non-negotiable (in that she will not give up her friends/game in exchange for a marriage again)

Techster...she wants to have affairs.

That's pretty much the bottom line here isn't it?

She doesn't want to rebuild trust..she wants you to get out of the way.

Noodle:

I admire you for trying 2 help techie here. I see some of my own pig-headedness of a few years back in his approach 2 this.

Techie, I don't know if you've blocked me or not. Maybe I'm just posting 2 myself here, but:

You need 2 drop all talk of relationships, marriage, trust, reconciliation, altogether, once and for all.

If she wants 2 reconcile with you, she'll let you know.

And I doubt she'll want it until all the pressure is off.

-ol' 2long

I think there's more to it than that.

I think that at least part of her wants to be with me again. However, i am not seen as a "safe harbor" to go to. So, she is looking elsewhere.

isnt that what "plan A" is all about"? being "a lighthouse"... the safe place to come back to?
Until I can show her that I am "safe" to have her (non-affair-based) friends around, then I think I am not seen as that safe place to come back to.

Certainly, I have to make it clear, that EA type stuff is not ok. yet somehow, allow the benign, or at least non-harmful, stuff.

Techie,

I affraid I don't see much progress here. She wants you to let her keep on doing as she has all along. She is just not being as negative as she was a few weeks ago. Probably because now that you have been served you eased off the pressure somewhat. So she feels somewhat more at ease with you.

But unfortunately she is still wanting to do as she pleases and that don't include being a wife to you at least not now.

FWIW if you really want to save the M the best approach at this point in time might just be to back off the pressure a little more until she approaches you. Just a thought.

you havent been keeping up, 2long <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I wrote recently (I thought, in this thread, even) that Steve H specifically has told me I should be talking with her about what would make a good marriage, to her point of view.

to JKG: I dont think she's going to approach me about anything, until I look like a good place to approach.