PS:


Actually, in some ways, she is being worse. She has done some things, that are obliquely "in your face" about moving on to other people. semi public cryptic messages, that are just obnoxious, to some readings.
(messages in game forums, and on her character stats, referencing song lyrics. ) But she KNOWS I would read it.
The day I was served, she posted a particularly bad song reference in the game forum, about "waiting for someone".


She was mostly very nice, in our trip to san diego. Above and beyond "more relaxed"

But, now that we're back in the land of (un)reality, she seems more fogged up again. and said the trip was very stressful and difficult.

it did have rough parts. but also some very nice ones. Unfortunately, i guess our talks overshadowed the good parts. an annoying tradeoff. On the one hand, it would have been nice to have a pure "happy" trip. But on the other, we would never have gotten to talk for a long period otherwise. sigh.

sigh. posting overlap. missed a noodle post.

Noodle: her entire family, or at least the ones she pays attention to, have been telling her the whole time, that she has the RIGHT to flirt with men, and I'm an ogre for not allowing this.

I can understand that YOU wouldnt respect a man that allowed you to flirt.

understand that her family tells her the exact opposite. She does not believe in the bible at all. Or marriage counselling. Her family, basically IS her belief system.


So for the most part, in a battle between what I claim is good for a marriage, and what her family clais is good for a marriage.. I lose, automatically.

me "standing up" for myself, against her family. does NOT win her respect. just the opposite.

What about self respect Techie?

Hmm. I perhaps isunderstood what you were saying the first time around. I think you are saying that, when she came back with an answer to a question I didnt ask (her suggesting to do stuff once a week), I should not have pushed her for an answer to my question, since she was deliberatedly avoiding that.

I think perhaps you are right.
on the flip side, though... if I didnt push.. i dont think she would have ever come up with anything different anyway. I dont think that "more time" would have brought up anything. She has said to me what she is going to say: "there's no trust".

I was open with her, that the discussion time was primarily for me to present my idea. That's been her approach for the entre separation: she's "willing to listen". it's all passive from her side.
I said up front, that I would prefer to hear her ideas first. That's why I asked ahead of time, for her to think if there was anything she would want to ask for in a good marriage.

She complains about me trying to "control her". But when I try to GIVE her control... she refuses to do anything directly with it.

To her credit... sometimes, her indirect actions have helped things between us. But this kind of complicated dance doesnt lead to recovery. it can only get vaguely in the vicinity of it. To actually get to the destination, requires direct confrontation about issues. SHE is definately not going to do that confronting. So I have to. sigh.
I just have to not overdo it.

Steve said I should actually bring it up MORE often, than I have been doing so far. hence, more conflict and nausea on her part.
Go figure. I dunno, he's supposedly the expert.

btw: the whole san diego thing:

I showed her a lot of direct affection in san diego for those 3 days. and she actually returned it directly, for a while. then around day two I think, she said she "felt confused". but still somewhat returned it, until we got back.

I think it was my wife trying to peek her way out of the fog. my true, loving wife.
But now seems like she's mostly swallowed up in fog again.

it was wonderful to catch sight of her again. but she withdrew, Specifically after telling me about the trust thing again. That's the one thing she's been complainig about consistently, both after the separationa, and well before it.

but it's certainly also possible that she's putting up a smokescreen just until I file my 'response' next week.
I know that's a possibility. Makes me sick to think she could be that deceitful... AGAIN.... hence why I'm awake at 4am... but i know it's a possibility.

well, I think I overstated the situation. I didnt "push' as hard as all that. I did comment to her that "what I asked for, was ideas for us to have a good marriage'. And I might have asked her one more time if there was anything she could think of in that reguard.
But I did NOT then go into some "Answer the question! Answer the question!' mode. As far as I remember, I moved on into presenting my ideas. Which consisted of presenting what I was willing to do. Which then resulted in her DJ'ing me about "you couldnt do that', 'you just want to control me', etc, etc. A large part of the "conversation', was me attempting to diffuse her DJ's of me, and saying words to the effect of, "thats not what I want/ thats not how I feel'.
[any suggestions for how best to deal with when your spouse DJ's YOU ?]


The sad thing is, me even just talking about ways we could be married and happy together, is pressure to her. She just wants to talk about "how we can get along well, for our children'.
I THINK I'm avoiding selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements these days. And certainly angry outbusts. I was very calm.

Even when she wanted to leave and stop talking... I have previously said the typical normal reaction of "no, wait!'
But I even avoided that this time. Sad that that could be seen as controlling, but i recognize that it can be seen that way, so I try to not do that any more.

thank you for the reminders on good communication

Quote:
A large part of the "conversation', was me attempting to diffuse her DJ's of me, and saying words to the effect of, "thats not what I want/ thats not how I feel'.
[any suggestions for how best to deal with when your spouse DJ's YOU ?]

Heh...fire arms?

Seriouslt though I'm sure that you are being DJ'd [and it's so frustrating!] and I also believe that it's usually the case that the spouse who uses "You're trying to control me!" as a deflection tool has probably got some controlling behaviors of their own.

Is you wife passive agressive? If so what you are currently doing will about as effective [and dissatisfying] as trying to nail jello to the wall.

Passive agressives are expert evaders and very controlling themselves.

They also tend to actively block intimacy and block people from meeting their ens [so they don't need them and detach very easily].

They are truly a horse of a different color and the usual MB techiniques can fail pretty badly until the passive agression is dealt with.

Mulan is the local PA expert..you may want to give her a holler if you think this may be a possibility.

You also might try to limit your number of questions or issues.

I might go so far as to say ask one question one time during each meeting and spend the rest of the meeting doing something en deposit worthy...no relationship talk.

Yeah. I'd really like to do the "one question per meeting" thing. Things that get in my way:
- there's just so durn many of them to get to! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
- she keeps avoiding/redirecting/bringing up other stuff.

As for the "is your wife passive agressive" question:
well, gee... for me to make a statement like that, would be a "disrespectful judgement", now wouldnt it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'll just say that your description seems to fit her behaviours very closely.

I've read the stuff from mulan, and asked questions about it on my old thread. Mulan has spoken a bit on that subject.

So... any further suggestions?

I'd LOVE to do this. I've been wanting to listen to her ideas on the subject for .. well.. YEARS now, actually.
Trouble is.. she doesnt do it. She refuses to contribute. Or on the very rare occasions when she has said something... she didnt describe a marriage, but more like roommates. No obligation to modify their behaviour to make the other person happy, or safe, or comfortable. The closest she's come to that, is that married people have "a stronger obligation to try to [work out issues? its been a while]". But no statement on how they do this.

I havent asked that question, for quite a while. I've tried it, many many times, both before separation, and a few times afterwards.

Before, it was always "i dont know". or if she replied, it was essentially describing a roommates type situation. two separate people doing exactly what they wanted. or sometimes more specifically, loosely describing whatever issues we were aruging about most recently, describing someone with the freedom to do exactly those things, and calling that "a good marriage".

This is a pattern i've seen many times, when discussing other issues with her. She usually refuses to discuss by abstraction, in various ways. In the rare case that there is a perfectly matching example, and I can state it... she says "well, our situation is different". but gives no reason as to why it is different.

After she moved out, her response to that kind of question was "i'm not interested in being married any more".

So, I have limited the scope of my questions, to "what would make a good marriage for us?"

Aha moment.

Your question and my question were not the same question and you DO have an answer [but you don't like it].

My question was what was HER ideal.

Your question was what could be good for US.

Mine didn't take you into consideration [sticks out tongue].

What she has said she wants and what she has executed are very consistent Techie.

She WANTS an open marriage. She WANTS to behave independently and treat you like a friend with benefits/business partner.

That's what she WANTS. That is very very consistent with what she has done historically...is doing presently...and is TELLING you she wants. I don't think you can GET more solid proof than this.

That *is* her ideal.

It's an incompatability issue and an issue of being unequally yoked. So I think that what is really in your future is coming to acceptance that she does not want to live the life that you MUST live which does not include open marriage.

You mentioned earlier that you position on online flirting would cause me to lose respect because you and I are in agreement about what is RIGHT morally...this is not the case...it would cause me to lose respect because I know that it is you compromising your integrity...and there is no way to interpret that as other than weak behavior and I would be willing to bet that she views it the same way even though she and I do not agree on the primary issue.

I think that you have probably summed up her feelings very well. with the exclusion that she probably doesnt want an "open" marriage; i think she wants no marriage at all, to anyone, perhaps. Just like she claimed to me a few months ago.


There's an outside chance that she's gearing up for some fantasy marriage come june, and that's why she pushed the serving of papers early. (or at very least, the start of a "real" relationship). Her brother is getting married in june. She started a new diet, and claims she's growing her hair out, "for her brother's wedding".

But she started those things, the exact same week that;

1. I made comments on her behaviour with a "new" potential online OM
2. which is the the week she actually made the call to get me served
3. which makes the "sooneest our divorce can be finalized" date as... drumroll... June

So, there's some chance that this is all a setup to meet the "new OM" for the first time, looking at her best, and being "free" to go indulge herself with him.
While still apparently, enjoying the attention from old OM.
The "old" OM still apparently calls her every night at 10pm. This became apparent on our two-night trip to san diego. she claims she doesnt take his calls much any more. ignored him the first night, but took it the second night. (Gee, if he supposedly is now "bothering her", why doesnt she stop answering his calls?)

Doubly ironic that she would never do these things for me. EG: I always told her she looked great with long hair. And I really didnt like the way short hair looked on her. but she kept going to the same hairstylist her mother does, and getting a 50-year-old-gym-teacher cut most of the time. Then making excuses half the time about "they made a mistake".

She's always been selfconcious about her weight. She's now somewhere around 250 lbs. If she somehow really stuck to her new crash diet, there's an outside chance she might get close to 200lbs by then. But she hasnt been there, since before we were married. She would try a diet for 1-3 months.. usually whatever fad diet a female familiy member would try... and then give up, at the same time or soon after when they give up.
She follows what her family does in so many things. They're all public school teachers. so she's one too. same school district.

before she moved out, she was actually on the healthiest of the lot so far: jenny craig. she kept at it for a few months, and did very well, losing 30 lbs or something. then stopped doing it seriously, and started gaining again.
After she moved out, she claimed that she was still on it, and asked me for the money for the program to stay on it. Which I gave her for a few months. But they called me without me asking, and was wondering when she was coming back to the program.
Even after she had a paycheck, and I wasnt giving her money for it... she still kept claiming she was on the program.

it's so wierd that she would pretend to be on it. If she's going to be on something else, why go through that?
She knows I dont approve of all the "fad" stuff, and that I thought the jenny craig was the only "real" program she had tried so far, that was healthy for her long term.

but frankly... it just doesnt matter to me any more. i havent bugged her about her weight for over a year. not once. She's the one who has come to ME about, "can you see I've lost weight?" a few times. I've tried to be encouraging, although I wont lie to her and say I see a difference, when I'm not good at seeing those things. But when she says she's lost X pounds, I say "That's great! congratulations!".

Anyways... kinda semi-random side road. oh well.

PS: the "potential new OM" is a 25-year-old blackjack dealer across the country, who plays the game all day when he's not working. She's 32 now.
yeah, great matchup.
(Although she loves going to casinos. She likes going to vegas and sitting in front of video poker machines, etc. for hours. Maybe she thinks gambling is a good real life common interest)

I'm doing my best to show her that I'm serious about working on our marriage. before hitting divorce. but it seems very unlikely that my loving wife will fight hard enough against the proverbian "WS alien", to stay out and work on our marriage.

I think the most likely chance for any kind of recovery, is going to be maybe a year after divorce, after she finally gets to meet the (third?) "man of her dreams", and deal with that more openly for a while, and see how well THAT works out.

But, more likely is that she'll be too stubborn, and never come back. Reguardless of the hurt and harm all this is doing to our children.


She pissed off one of her best friends, by not going to her wedding years ago. She'll never make the first move to reconcile.... She's too proud and stubborn, even though she was in the wrong.
So, it's quite likely we'll end up in a similar situation, sad to say.

It's a mess. i was hoping the san diego trip could have been a catalyst for us agreeing to start recovery for us. But my negotiation/talk skills are not elite enough for that. There was enough there to show that she still cares about me. A lot. But not enough to pick me exclusively, and stop whatever it is she is doing online with other guys, apparently.

PS: the whole "weak integrity" thing turning her off... no.
She HATES that i have strong integrity. She calls it me being "holier than thou".

She's an "everything is relative, there are no absolutes for good/evil" kinda person now.
I dont think she used to be. but she has been that way for years now. She tears into me for having fixed standards on things sometimes. "how can you be so judgemental", etc, etc. She says (because her mother says) that marriage is "all about compromise". So me bending my standards, should be a positive, from her viewpoint. I'm "compromising". in her book, that's a 'good' thing.

She probably just doesnt think I can really do it.(and probably doesnt really care any more if I can)

I'm really sorry Techie...I know it must be very frustrating and painfull.

I hope it helps to recognize that it wasn't a lack of elite negotiations that failed to create desired results...it was purely and simply that you can't make a person who WANTS to be unfaithfull faithfull until and unless they change their mind.

It doesn't hurt to use the skill set and hope for a change of heart...certainly not...but I wouldn't have a lot of expectation.

Thanks for the encouragement. but I do know, that I could have gotten a lot further with her those times. I blew it by going down wrong paths, and going at them for too long a time. And I reacted in the wrong ways to certain things, that put her on the defensive, instead of staying open to me.

I tried. I really did. and I'm glad I tried, even though it didnt result in what I would have liked. It was really good to be with "my wife" one more time.
even after all the crap she's put me through... damn, my eyes are misting up... I wish she would let us be together like we were on the best day there. We could continue to be happy together, like we were that day, if she chose it.
I didnt "expect". but I did hope.

ah well.

I think you maybe could have had more positive response as far as her "good feelings" about you using very intentional possibly hostage negotiator level dialogue...but unless I am very mistaken good feelings does not change the fact that she just simply does not want to be married by any definition you would accept...and those skills..even if they could be used to GET her to that place..they won't KEEP her there.

Sorry you are having such a rough day.

"hostage negotiator"? what do you mean?

as far as "she doesnt want to be married by any definition I would accept"... I dunno.

I have now offered her something that at one point, she claimed was what she wanted, before she moved out.
(to remain faithful to me, but not be berated for "harmless flirting")

I am not sure whether that is no longer enough for her, or whether she just doesnt trust me enough to be content with that.

I am offering her that, but I am also requiring in exchange, something she has refused to do honestly in the past: demonstrate to her "harmless flirting" buddies, that I am her husband, and she wants to keep me that way.

as you say: it's her choice. I've made an offer. I think it's an honest offer, that if she keeps her side of it, i could keep mine.
Now it's up to her.

"hostage negotiator"? what do you mean?

My little joke.

People whose job it is to negotiate for hostages can pretty much be called the best in the business. If they can get satan himself to celebrate christmass and smile they could certainly get your ww to the table right?

My point was that she possibly could be talked into agreeing to something by means of skillfull pursuasion...but that will not have the power to change her belief structure and her desire for independent behavior.