She hasn't established NC because she still works with the OM. Unless one of them leaves you are going to have to expose to their work to put even more pressure on the A. As long as there is contact this is still and active A, and you must treat it as such. Remember the carrot and the stick of plan A? The carrot is meeting the ENs your WW will allow you to meet, no LBing, and this is a big one for you dg, NO RELATIONSHIP TALK!!! You can save that when you are well into recovery; you'll get your chance as long as you don't talk about it now. The stick is NEVER PROTECTING WW FROM THE CONSEQUENCES OF HER ACTION. This includes exposure to anyone and everyone that would be able to put any pressure (direct or indirect) on the A. Exposure should include WW's and OM's employer and OM's spouse and family. It also means snooping and making a disruptive environment for an affair to occur. Make it inconvenient as ****** to call the OM, check up her cell phone records, and let her know when you know she is lying. Don't let her walk all over you and pursue the OM. Set boundaries and enforce them.

Well spoke w/ MIL again this morning andshe is going to talk w/ W on Sat when W cleans church, MIL asked me not to confront OM as she fears I may get a harrassment charge.
But I am going to confront him @ work when he leaves in the afternoon.

I stupidly gave up my intel on cell phone records and now she changed password - As well as I believe she clears only history associated w/ OM.

MIL exposed to W's sister concerning her abscence from cleaning church on 12/16 when she was @ OM's house - SIL talked w/ W about it and asked what friend - W said to her
"does it matter"

As far as exposing to employer what would be the best way to do that? W's general manager is married and having an affair w/ a CSR so I dont think that would do much good?

W says we are going back to early Oct. b/c it's the right thing to do - Says she feels unlovable b/c she is unable/unwilling to give those back right now.

Says her talking w/ me, our night snuggling on Xmas,wearing her ring, the fact that she lets me hug her and kiss her should be signs that we are moving forward - But talking about R/M takes a step back that I should let her come back in her own time.

If we truly are going back to before all this started doesnt it lend itslef to working on M or at least having the things back that were in place at that time?

I cant let this vacillating keep going - MIL says she feels W is struggling w/ her faith and her being so withdrawn is b/c she knows whats right

Do I ask W to share cell phone records w/ me since she changed her password? Same with pc acct and email although I believe she may be using another acct - Yahoo etc.

How do I get her to come forward - She believes its a control issue that she has had w/ me in the past and gets defiant that I cannot accept it that it was just a "friendship" and that it's over b/c she say he hasnt talked w/ her since the 16th but her only talking w/ me about mundane things or being quiet to to the point of discomfort is getting to me - She says she was always quiet but it wasnt that way - Even though our M suffered for some time we had good times where we joked, talked about nothing etc.

She doesnt seem to buy anything Dr. Harley says right now, When this first started she was adamant about not wanting to work on anything - But as I have stayed and talked she seems to be coming back on some level but I dont know what she does the 8 - 10 hrs she is at work - She on some levels feels I am smothering her with wanting to spend time w/ her but the only way I can know she isnt talking w/ him or seeing him is to be as big a part of her life as I can however uncomfortable it is for the both if us.

I feel that could also be hampering her b/c I am trying too hard - even if I dont talk R/M b/c I am monpolizing her time and she feels that she based her life on me and didnt have friends - Although I had encouraged her to find and cultivate friendships outside M.

Also OM is divorced so only choice is confronting him, And hoping that he is hearing something different from her and what I tell him.
That she is going back to Oct, that she will stay a W b/c I win, her family wins and church wins that I am totally committed to doing all I can to make my marriage work

dg, a married woman should not have "friendships" with men. That is a danger to your marriage.

She should open up her cell phone records, voicemail passwords, everything in order to restore trust. People who have nothing to hide, DON'T HIDE. So, in order to restore your trust, she should be willing to do this, UNLESS SHE DOESNT WANT YOU TO TRUST HER.

But, i don't believe this was just a "friendship," and I don't think you do either.

Can you access her computer and place a keylogger on there? That way you could find out exactly what she is doing on there.

Melody - I have no access to her work pc and yesterday was the first time she was on home pc other than on my acct as we have a home pc that we all share with 4 accts.

W says I should trust her but she doesnt want to seem to prove it to me - By opening things up - She changed her pc password again after I cracked it in late Nov.

Shes happy woth status quo right now - Staying married b/c its the right thing to do, Kids, house, b/c I want to stay married - She thought that I on some level would leave when she said she didnt think she wanted to be married - But it really woke me up that she was so unhappy.

Now that I have found my way back to God, Involved the church (which she initiated) and now she says she is sorry for involving church - She mentioned that she thought of changing churches b/c I exposed.

She hasnt done anything - Even said she thought she should talk w/ C for herself but she doesnt even do anything about that.

She is so trying to get piano which only works if we stay in the house - So on some level she is staying but not committing to anything.

Not really open to being open either

I would not confront the OM in person or at his work. As your MIL said, this opens you up to possible legal ramifications.

Regarding the other "win" statement. This is WW fog BS. My wife said the same thing to me as a guilt trip. I ignored it and explained that this was not a game that I was trying to win. It was my life, our kids life, and hers also.

dg, she is hiding something and you need to find it out. One way to find out is to place a voice activated recorder in her car. You can get these at Radio Shack. Another way is to get a GPS and place this in her car.

GPS at Toys R Us: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/061003/20061003005054.html?.v=1

Can you hire a P.I.?

Just so that y'all know, this is pretty standard MB advice. There are no legal ramifications to confronting an OP. Confronting the OM helps him humanize the BS by allowing him to place a REAL LIVE face with a name. Steve Harley and Dr. Harley recommend this action and suggest asking the OM "what are your intentions for my wife?" It is also good to let him know that you will be fighting for your marriage and will make as much trouble as possible for the affair.

I should also add that my H's affair ENDED the day I confronted his OW. She dumped him because he had lied to her and she did not want the trouble - FROM ME.

Now, if you do think you can't meet him without punching him out, you might consider taking a friend who will protect you from that eventuality. Most folks have no problem controlling their anger, though.

The reason I was going to confront him n the parking lot @ work b/c he wouldnt want to make a scene and I know I could be composed - Besides I do not have too many people that I can count on - My close friends only see my sitch W betraying me and that in some ways I should cut my losses and save myself financially.

W is getting piano on Sat for free - All we/she has to pay for is 200.00 to move it - She doesnt even seem happy about this, In the past she wouldnt be able to stop talking.

Asked her again about finding another job, Not directly about OM more about stress - She said she promised bosses that she wouldn't as she keeps her word and it's the right thing to do - Well she says same thing about our M - She is staying and says she is trying to work on this b/c its the right thing to do - Well she really isnt working on it.

She's allowing me a little in the way of M - But not opening herself up or letting me in.

Told MIL this morning that I said to W about not wanting to go back to old M - Rather build new one - The only things that would remain are our children, house and families.

MIL also said now that I have found God that my W had been praying for for years has thrown my W for a loop and that she has strayed so far from God that she is angry w/ me a little, herself and God.

I know if I could get some small in I could prove to her that we can get past this - I feel she thinks if she is honest w/ me that I wouldnt understand or forgive - I can and would but as I told MIL - w would truly have to make concessions on privacy for a while.

I was a jerk at times in our M and have done a few things of which I am not proud but we have stayed together this long so it cant be totally wrong? I also dont believe that she stays just b/c its for the kids or finances although sometimes I let myself feel that way.

W did say she wishes she wouldnt have to work? Now for someone who made their bosses' promises that is the ultimate fencesitting - I said quit she told me that I had already said how money gets tight for me and that we need her income - I said we could do it together.

No R/M talk at all today but I told her that she doesnt seem happy w/ anything - The old her would be talking non stop about piano.

I also asked her to attend church tomorrow nite for Reformers Unanimous - Faith based addictions/strongholds counseling - MIL wants me to strongly encourage W and even though I am needing it for my reasons MIL thinks on some level W needs it more b/c as a Christian W has fallen so far and cant seem to find her way back.

Should I confront OM today or wait til MIL talks w/ W?

Just got my license back this morning so I dont have to worry about driving issues - Besides now W wont know when and where I could show up anymore which could be good and bad - b/c it'll either push it further into secrecy or cause her to think twice about meeting.

Went to confront OM - He wasnt @work thought he left @3:30pm but it must be 3:00pm - Drove to his house but when I got there he was standing outside w/ a few other peope so I didnt stop - I was alone - Not sure if he called W or not she was home but didnt seem upset.

He must have saw me - My car is unique - Pontiac Grand Prix GTP w/ dinstinctive badging and I thought he looked at me so. Shoud I have stopped or did I do the right thing to keep on driving?

The sooner you confront, the sooner the A might crumble. OM could take any number of stances. If he is married you need to expose to his W... I can't remember if you have already done that...or maybe he is single.

Just make absolutely sure you can control yourself. Getting your driver's license back will do you no good in Jail, and it's d a m n near impossible to Plan A from there!!!

Plus, I get the idea you keep waiting for that "aha" moment where your WW just rolls over and says "I did it", and from now on we'll live happily ever after. Now I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but these changes take place like a glacier moves...so slowly you DON'T even perceive them at the time. You almost have to look BACK in time to see where any change has occured.

Your W will be furious when she finds out you confronted the OM. You need to remain calm in the fury of the storm and stay on your mantra...you did it out of love for your W, you did it because you believe in the marriage, you did it because the relationship was inappropriate and damaging your marriage.

Congrats on getting the DL back. Don't leave home without it!

SD

I meant to add... no one thing you do in Plan A will make a difference...it's ALL the things you do in Plan A that make a difference, and it must take place consistantly over a period of time your W believes is permanent, rather than bait and switch...

SD

Shattered Thanks - OM is divorced so I think its harder to confront but as I said - I was alone when I drove past and am pretty sure he saw me - I didnt stop b/c I didnt want to get jumped and I want to do this as simply and non confrontational as possible.

I want him to know I am doing all I can to save M and going off the deep end will not help me one bit - I plan on keeping my license - Today when I came home from DMV my S 10 gave me a hug and said he was happy I got my license back.

I was completely honest w/ my kids about the "choice" I made to drink and drive and that all of peoples actions have consequences - I think it was a good lesson.

You know one thing, W didnt seem fazed if she knew about my driving past his house no mention of where I was, went I would figure if he called her to say I drove past I would have gotten a reaction?

Or could she just be trying not to say anything - Does it make me look like an idiot for not stopping and just driving past? I didnt want to get jumped as there looked to be a couple of people around and usually when I have been by there before his truck is the only one around.

W told me that his 3 kids live with him, She said she thinks he "stopped" talking w/ her after I showed up and asked her to come outside on 12/16 (Sat)

dg, i think you were smart to drive on by. You want to do everything to avoid a big scene. I also think that you should confront him again at his home. That will put more pressure on him to stay away from your wife.

One on one, if YOU don't take someone with you is the way to go. No sense making the OM feel macho, and taking advantage of his buds and "showing off" or putting on a show for them.

Bide your time. Choose the best time for YOU. But don't put it off any longer than necessary.

SD

Melody - I thought work may be better offers protection for us both not to get carried away - I know I dont want to but even though he invaded our life whoever initiated this doesnt matter, But if I confront at work he needs his job and there may be people whom he wouldnt want to know whats going on?

Also does anyone know how good the free keylogger software offered by Horizon Data Sytems is or should I buy program?

Does the voice activated recorder work good if music is being played - W is always listening to music.

As I said - W didnt act at all like he called and maybe I will know tomorrow but feel if he did call b/c he knew I was out she would have had some reaction and she didnt seem as distant as before.

Also thinking maybe on some level she is telling truth that after I showed up at his house that maybe he isnt talkng to her right now but going thru withdrawal although I am not closing my mind and believing anything she is telling me right now - Just trying to find my way through this "fog"

On some level I wonder if her Love for me is so far gone and she is staying for the wrong reasons or if she is staying and thinking she may find it again?

My mother said when she fell out of love with my father she knew it was never coming back - But he was physically abusive and drank way more than I ever did and spent most nights in a bar or stupor.

I on the other hand drank mostly on weekends and was with family most of the time and 2 isolated ncidents of being physical with W and that was 5 maybe 6 yrs ago - Ours was the constant arguing LB's, DJ's and AO's

Expose to their HR representative at work. Expose to their coworkers that you know as well. If nothing is done, go to the GM's boss and tell him about your WW and OM, and that the GM did not act on it because he is currently having an affair with a CSR. That ought to shake things up at the company, not to mention make things uncomfortable. She might want to quit her job afterall. Expose to OM's family as well - parents, siblings, anyone that would make him feel bad for messing around with your WW. Besides plan A and meeting your WW's ENs, part of your goal should be trying to break up WW and OM.

Asked W to attend church tomorrow night and to rethink finding a new church. Asked her how she gets through the day through all this she said it's hard.

Asked if she contacted C for herself - No but saw an email from the C we saw together once, She told me to pick one for her - I said I couldn't do that it was something for her.

Asked why it has been so hard when she gave a lot of effort previously and now it seems so hard to overcome, She said she wants to overcome this to find a way to work on things.

Also said she has given me chances but my "commando" tactics turns her away - I said I always had trusted her in the past but the secrecy, anger and amount of calls and the fact she keeps her cell phone like a lifeline feeds my distrust, She tried to hand me cell phone to look at but I didnt take the bait b/c if she is still talkng to him she can delete, Besides I really wanted to ask her to see cell bill details when they come in.

Now she said fine I'll find another job we will see how long this lasts, She mentioned earlier today that she didnt want to work anymore but that we needed her to - I said we can sacrifice sell one car, cut back - She could watch kids - She said she would clean houses.

Kept saying that there is no more "friendship" - Now she is also bumed b/c piano she thought she was going to get for free is now on hold - Senior couple both in assisted living at seperate residences the H promised it to someone else - W wants it gone so now she is in limbo with that.