If you love your W there are still grounds to be working on things.

Now you have the big picture. Plan A is all about correcting those things you brought to the marriage that are truly or perceived as Love Busters. You have a few things that obviousy need correction. In my own case, I went through the marriage pretending housework was 'women's work', and that was a HUGE Love Buster to my W. Half of the negative feelings she had for me were corrected when I got off my a$$ and did no less than 1/2 the household chores, including laundry, shopping, cooking, dishes and vaccuming. It took a while, but after a month or so it bacame routine, effortless, and made a huge difference.

I was also one to "make jokes" about or to my W in company, making her look silly. How demeaning. Another thing you can change, but a habit hard to break. But if you LOOK at her when you say something you can pick up on whether or not she takes it as offensive. Then learn to keep constant vigilance on your words, another habit to beat.

Now you have a tremendous amount of information at hand to rededicate yourself to a fabulous Plan A, and reasons to believe these changes will make an impact. I will say that with my case similar to yours, it will take LONGER to PROVE to your W your changes are sincere and permanent.

Your W is the lock, and you are the Key. What will you do now? By the way, having the same IC is some treacherous ground, IMHO. You might want to get a referral to another...

SD

I do love her, I wrote a lot of that for schoolbus b/c I wanted to know a woman's point of view as to whether the love she had for died before the A or b/c of the A.

I feel it's the latter but she is an "alien" right now and am wanting do things right, Wondering if it is too little too late from a womans point of view?

I know it's hard work to change things that have taken this long to own up to and see where I was and have been.

For all the bad things I felt there were some good things as well, I always did housework although I did let my W know that I did, I for the last several years have been doing all the laundry at first it was just the easy stuff but over time I felt I was being a help.

Was home everyday for the kids after school, made sure homework got done, rooms cleaned etc - On some level I felt I was always the heavy when it came to that though and that was part of my frustration at times.

I did most of the yardwork except for her gardening which she took pleasure in until this year - The job kept her away alot.

I do know at least up until Aug or early Sept that she wasn't in the A - W got a friend of mine a job there but he left in early Sept.

The scary thing about the A is the stuff I was reading on womensinfidelity.com and when a W has an A it can be harder for them to come back to a marriage or even wanting to especially with our situation.

Yeah, women can be REAL stubborn and hardheaded about these things.

But you have reached the point where you have a menu of items to improve upon, and, more importantly you've read enough and felt enough pain to become GROUNDED. Most of what your efforts were before the last week or two were halfhearted. Add that to the fact you were still in a completely reactionary mode, and instead of giving your thoughts to positive steps, you fretted and stewed about every little crazy thing your WW was doing.

You have reached the true starting point where you can make an impact on your W's thinking.

Start dressing up a bit. Get a new haircut. Change your after shave. When your WW see you, let her wonder just "what the h3ll is 'ol dg up to". Implement your personal changes, stay within Plan A, don't sweat what WW is doing and SUSTAIN that for 60 days.

I think you'll see a world of difference, truly, I do.

SD

dg,

You have listed some very good things on your list. Fix those.

I see you stalking her too - you need to stop. I understand the need to catch her in the affair, but there is a point where it is obsessive. I think you are there, don't you? Driving past his house will not make her stop. Going through her purse won't either. If you want to catch her, it will have to be better planned, not a constant vigil and following her every move. If you appear to be dropping your guard, then she will also drop hers - get it? It will be then that she will make the mistake and you will be able to catch her.

She has not yet admitted to a PA, is that true? It may be that she has not been able to cross that line yet. She is very religious, so that will be difficult for her to do. That works in your favor.

A woman's point of view is what you asked for. Here's what I see. I hope you take it as constructive, because that's where I am coming from.

I can't take it when a man is groveling. I want a man who stands up and looks me in the eye, even when he's hurting. If he lowers his eyes to me, then somehow that lowers my level of respect for him. Look her in the eye. Don't beg.

I agree with helping with the housework. That is just a no-brainer. She works, so you do half. Look around - that bathroom needs scrubbed. Do it. And for the love of God, don't go asking her to thank you. This is a LB in my mind. In my entire married life, I never once asked my husband to THANK ME for cleaning house - so I ask, where does he get off asking me to thank him for doing the same thing?????? This is because for some reason he felt it was MY job, and NOT HIS. Newsflash boy, it is both of our jobs. He finally got around to figuring that out when I went on strike (if you can imagine a strict Plan B on housework from my end - and believe me, this was no easy job! but it did bring the family around). Short and sweet - get your hands dirty, the house clean, and don't brag on yourself for it. It is part of the package of "family work", not "women's work". This is, after all, the 21st century.

She needs a break from R talk, and I am supposing you do, too. Stop for now. This won't be easy. You asked if she lost her love before or after the affair. Maybe she hasn't lost it at all, have you considered that? But at this point, she is worn out. I think you have LB'd, DJ'd, and AO'd to the point where she needs distance, and some peace. She needs to be able to stop the craziness and take a break for a moment.

There's a song, the lyrics go, "I can't make you love me, if you won't; I can't make your heart feel something it won't." She says her heart won't ever be yours, and she may feel that right now. But she is in the marriage - She has told you that she's staying in the marriage. Accept that for now. Go from there, and use Plan A. This means that you have to be a giver, and give without expectation of thanks, reciprocation, or love in return. Just give.

I think also that you probably push a lot, but at the same time you give her two different messages at once. You say awful things you don't mean - and then don't say what you really do mean. When you are talking with her, you have to just be honest. The games you play are a huge obstacle in your path. By saying one thing and meaning another, she cannot trust anything you say - and then cannot trust what you are doing either. So when you say you are changing, how can she trust that? You give mixed messages, so what can she believe?

Finally, take a look at your behavior in terms of control. I see your actions as trying to control her. The dirty looks you give her when she says things in social settings - this tells me that you want to control what she says, so that she reflects better ON YOU. Believe me, what she says or does reflects on herself, not on you. Controlling her (or trying to) will never make you appear better to your peers or family. In fact, controlling her will accomplish the exact OPPOSITE of your intended goals. She will reject you, want distance from you, disrespect you, and in turn, the controlling nature appears to others as weak.

One last thing. In the end, Plan A, and the whole thing, well, it's about YOU. If you think about it - this recovery, the marriage, the only thing you really are in charge of - that is YOU. Focus on what you can do something about.

My list in short:

Get honest.
Stand up as a man.
Don't grovel or beg.
Help with the domestic needs.
Give her a chance to breathe and think.
Don't push about the relationship all the time.
Work on your self-esteem.
Don't send mixed messages.
Completely stop all angry outbursts.
Control your tendency to stalk.
Abandon any desire to control her.

That's my list back to you. I hope it helps. It's about as straight as I can play it.

SB

schoolbus, Thanks for your point of view I do see what you mean about the groveling I have always been a man in touch w/ my emotions which has been good and bad.

Yes the pushing is something as well that no many how many people have told me I continued to do.

Controlling Yes I do need to work on that as well, The part of her staying in the M was weeks ago - Now she has been bent on getting out but only if I make the move which I cant.

Stopped going to her job, no phone calls unless needed for kids - Have driven by OM's house a few times but not like I was - But I do understand why she would feel "stalked" and I really hate that part - Really feel like it makes look pathetic.

The housework was something I needed for me never wanted a Thank You at all - Life seemed easier when there wasn't such clutter.

Dont really believe a PA but the EA kills me more if that makes sense? Her feeling entitled to this "friendship" bothers me.

We are both seeing the same IC and that is something I am learning about only being in control of me.
W called C today to tell her that we are clients - C told her that since we are seeing her individullay its ok - C never put 2 and 2 together - Even though she asked us both for our spouses first names.

On some level seeing the same C gives me a sense of fate I guess, W and I did talk tonight when she came in at first b/c I asked if she called C to tell her and then opened up a good 1/2 hr of talks about each of us and our issues.

W asked about my appt w/ psych which made me feel good, Showed her what he gave me to take, Also that he gave me sleep script also - I had been having sleep problems for a long time even b/f this - On some level that should have been addressed b/c psych and C said lack of sleep wasnt good for the body or my mind - Which probably increased my behaviors.

Should have stuck w/ C from the beginning of this - My personal recovery would have been further along and wouldn't have to wait a few weeks for AD's to take effect.

Thanks again for womans perspective - W was the nicest she has been in weeks tonight - Shared alot of what she is learning about herself.

The other things - AO' DJ's were a product of what I let happen - Instead of owning things in the past I obsessed and drove myself to even greater things - When all I should have said was I am angry or I am frustrated and state why and leave it there instead of bottling up and blowing up.

dg,

Glad to see that you are planning to stay in counseling.

The obsessing gets old really fast. It is very hard to just be yourself around someone who is obsessing about something, especially if that something is what you did wrong. In your wife's case, she knows the "friendship" is not appropriate - and the obsessing about it doesn't help her stop, it has made her dig in her heels to "prove" you wrong. I hope you can see that. I think maybe there is an element of punishing you, too, in this. She knows that she can keep you off balance simply by maintaining this relationship.

There may be something of a power struggle in this on her end - because of the control issues in the past, and her sense that the religion/church controls her, also her parents' role in her life, I wonder how much she feels that she really controls of her own life? The continuation with the OM may be her acting out against everyone and everything in reaction to this - just a guess on my part, but maybe something to think about. It might be good to relax a bit on it, and see if reducing the drama results in her reducing her interest and attraction to him? Affairs love drama - they thrive on it. The mundane "real life" stuff makes them go flat really fast.

My husband and I got a copy of "Relationship Rescue" by Phil McGraw. You might want to get it. If you do the work in the first part of the book - it focuses very much on YOU - you might see where you need to fix up yourself and your behaviors. It's worth the money, I thought. My FWH also liked it, so it was man-friendly.

Hang in there.
SB

Thanks, What you say does make sense, I have tried to take the OM part out of the mix since Wed whe I was in her purse.

I know that is a short time, I will try to keep that part in check. Did not hear anything concerning the A/C charger I found and took.

The last few days have been real tough, The AD's are taking some time to kick in although my obsessing isnt as bad my personal depression right now has me really off balance.

Visited w/ mother and brother on Fri. night ended up spending the night, Just to get away from the drama around here.

Started really thinking to myself whether I have the fortitude to keep up the fight for all this with all the soul searching, pain and hard work.

We talked a little bit last night about things and I asked W if she really wanted out why she hasn't done more, I dont know if that was right or not - She said b/c she was scared.

I asked if she was scared staying or going - She said both and she wants to work on herself right now w/ C.

I said I felt that there was alot of work to do on both and only really asked if we could talk more, Since we have discussed some things that we shared w/ the C although I feel I shared more b/c my issues deal almost directly w/ our R/M.

W did mention she was working w/ C on her honesty not only w/ people in her life but her honesty w/ herself.

We have so much to lose on many levels it seems we are both trapped to some degree it makes things more difficult.

As I said earlier I question my desire to work on R/M myself at times but then feel if we made a drastic change and things worked out we would be sorry that we lost things that we shouldn't have.

I feel that the kids are still young enough if we get through this then we have a chance to be a very good family and be able to offer them more together than apart.

Havent posted in a couple of days and just trying to get my feet on the ground again - 3 days on Lexapro and got my prescription for Ambien filled yesterday and got a good nights sleep - Although laid around all day yesterday so that probably wasnt a good thing.

We both have appt. w/ C tomorrow - W @ 9:00am and me @ 2:00pm - Curious as to how this will go - My first visit since we found out we share the same one.

We have so much to lose on many levels it seems we are both trapped to some degree it makes things more difficult.

You have so much to gain on so many levels, it seems that you are both committed to some degree, it makes more sense to put for the effort to succeed.

That's how I see it.

SD

I guess thats the good thing about posting on here, I tend to look at things right now from the painful negative stage and when I write these things down and hear from someone looking outside the pain it gives hope.

The hardest thing right now is although I feel I am getting over the obsessive part on may levels - My own depression is surfacing more - I am trying to get in touch with things and it's hard b/c for months I have focused so much on R/M
OM and A - Trying to inject myself into W's life.

I forgot about friends, family and activities I enjoyed and now its hard ttrying to reconnect w/ things w/o seeming like a user or expecting others to be there only when I find it convenient.

I am having second thoughts on my (our) C - I started seeing her first and W couldnt see the one she was referred to so her 2nd referral was for the C I was seeing.

C said W and I have issues that it may be best to S for awhile - Kids are resilient and that they probably have noticed things over the years anyway.

When I explained that we have financial issues as we owe more on our house than we could probably get she was a little less about S and suggested we both meet to learn how to better communicate whether we stay together or not.

W seems to like her and I did - I still do on some levels but this part scares me - I know I have issues but C says I ruminate too much about A which I can and have seen.

Any thoughts or are we just playing out the inevitable, W hasn't done anything about S or D but she isnt talkative and when we do talk its only about an 1 hr or so a week.

I can see where all the fall out has happened over the years but ....... With everything we have built, the kids, where we are now both in C - W e should be able to find something to be able to build on

Tell your counselor to check out MB. Let her know Dr. Harley's stance on S being the worst possible thing you could do to try and save your M if you WW is in an active EA (or PA). Let her know what you have learned.

dg, you keep doing exactly what you've been doing for the past week or so. Your situation has been so volitile, and your initial efforts at Plan A, in your own words, were less than 100%. IMHO, you need to sustain this calm you've achieved, and maintain the sense of normalcy in your behavior, and let your WW calm down and begin to trust you.

It will take a period of time before she will respond to your newfound calm. WS are very untrustworthy, and they believe, in their fogbound state, that your very existance today is to make them PAY HEAVILY for their indescretions.

That's why you need to prove to your WW that you are a work in progress, have made some very significant changes and are sustaining those changes.

Let your actions speak for themselves, be still for the most part, and give your WW glimpses of the new dg, as the opportunity arises. Stay with dressing up a bit more than your prior norm, use new aftershave, and maybe sport a new haircut, and when she's around, emanate self confidence, and be very pleasant in your disposition.

Use the inner grace you have found, and let it shine through.

SD

C said she is familiar w/ Dr. Harley and especially likes the part about radical honesty which I thought was good.

When I first got in today I was looking at her degrees and one was for a certified relatioship counselor but then that stuff falls out - I was comfortable seeing a female b/c I can talk easier and thought if W liked her then we could be in a better place.

C asked if I could see where W would be afraid - To put myslef in her position which I could but also even though I was a hothead at times - I did and do have a real soft side.

So do we meet together w/ C? - After explaining our financial and the fact evem b/f I knew W and I were seeing the same C that I would have been willing to meet w/ W's C to give her insight that I am sincere in getting help for myself and us to avoid all the unpleasntries of D.

W finally got home @ semi normal time even though she had an appt w/ C yesterday - They finally hired a new person to fill in for some of her job.

When she got in I was coming out of the shower and I acted surprised to see her - She talked about the new guy and how she was glad to get out @ a decent time.

Went down to fold clothes and left the convo first politely,
Kids were playing at a friends house and W was making dinner until it was time to pick them up.

When she got back she didn't ask if I was eating but I went upstairs and was just going to get a plate and lay low, Before I could leave she started talking about her C appt. and something that C asked her to read "The Science of the Mind" a publication from Scientology - W was skeptical as she was brought up strict Baptist.

Asked how mine went and said C thought it would be good to meet together no matter our outcome, I expressed some of my reservations about what C had said at times but also C said that things may not be irrepairable although we both have our own issues.

Expressed my reservations about kids being resilient, As our S10 is a very feeling boy and I think an S would devastate him, But we talked calmly for at least 45 min - I actively listened, validated, empathized - I also spoke some about me - But I think we did good and W was not as guarded and didnt seem to want to stop talking as quickly as in the past.

Even though we talked for 30 - 45 min - I didnt want her to feel to pressured so when there was a pause for a short bit I kind of excused myself - Thanked her for making dinner and went downstairs.

I hate to even think of this but it did cross my mind, W's spending habits have seem a bit frugal lately - Tighteneing her spending from groceries - Kids are now bringing their lunches more, not as much take out food, no real spending of any kind other than paying the moving of the piano which was free.

Could she be planning something or am I being paranoid?

Just something that popped into my head, I can't be sure of her thinking right now, Can't talk w/ IL's they cut off after my meltdown a couple of weeks ago.

Well, she has given you reason enough to be paranoid for the past several months, so don't discard any gut feelings you might have.

One the other hand, if you continue these peaceful interactions with her, she will begin to see the ACTIONS you are putting into place, and she will maybe begin to feel safer in your presence. This is what I've been suggesting you do. Seek out the normacly that was once your home.

This is all going to take a lot of time, so remain patient. Emotions do not changes quickly. The fog doesn't go away in one fell swoop. It is a very painstakingly slow process. You still have to prove to her your changes have a hint of becoming permanent. You are proving to her, ever so slowly, you are the new Plan A dg.

Stay the course, while remaining keenly aware of her activities.

SD

SD - Thanks - I do understand although I feel w/ all that has gone on if I only had stayed in Plan A and made the lasting changes instead of falling and letting my emotions rule me - Its just something that came over me today @ work.

I think the AD's are kicking in my depression is lifting and I am smiling at work again, talking more, obsessing less and working on being even keel all the time.

Well not sure whats going on, W was a little distant on Tues. night we didnt really interact much, I kept busy with laundry and cleaning the driveway a couple of times.

When we had a chance to interact - She seemed a little off I asked if everything was ok - I asked if she wasn't feeling well - She replied not really seemed to be either in a bad mood or preoccupied.

I did go and talk to her again b/f bedtime and told her when I was clearing the driveway a fox ran past me - Never saw one in our neighborhood - She wwasn't dismissive but convo only lasted a few minutes.

Wed. wasn't much better, Kids were playing and usually W and kids go to church - I went out for coffee b/f W got home and when I got in I was talking w/ my S10 and he said they didn't go to church b/c Mom had a bad day @ work.

I went to W and said S10 said you had a bad day, She said she got called on the carpet for snapping @ someone, I listened, empathized, validated - I didnt try to fix anything although I did say that she has had a tough job there. Also said if she needed to talk or get things out I was always there.

She was thrown into the job, They doubled the amount of work, Didnt hire extra people etc.
Said she has a meeting w/ HR person and her immediate boss but I am wondering if something else is going on?

Wonder if she is planning something concerning our R/M even though we are like roommates right now, Or if something happened w/ OM, Withdrawal - Said she didn't think she was going to be let go but if things didnt change she may be out on her butt.
Very calm interactions which were much different than the past b/c of DJ,s, etc concerning her job situations the last few years.

Dont get me wrong if it is something like that happened I would hate it for her personally as she has had a tough time keeping jobs the last few years, But would welcome the part that NC w/ OM would come about.

B/f I left this morning - I saw W and said I hope everything goes ok for you - Have a good day and all she could do was shake her head - No words, Her self centeredness really stabs me sometimes but I have been soft spoken, caring, no LB's - Nothing seems to help.

Do I call her today her meeting is supposed to be @ 10:00am we havent really talked on phone recently unless its to do w/ kids, Do I try to do something nice? Do I just keep up w/ my positive interactions when I have a chance?

I am kind of at a loss - Really wish I knew what was going on, Havent actually been in spy mode b/c if anything is still going on it is really underground right now.

First real snooping in over a week, W said she was having a meeting w/ HR person & immediate supervisor @ 10:00am concerning her attitude or so she says - I was leery as her cold, distant demeanor most of the time leads me to thinking what she has going on.

Took company truck to see if she was @ work she was and stayed til 10:10am or so she didnt leave, Which is possibly good - Although her car is parked 3 cars away from OM which for a long time has been the way but not sure if it was that way b/f suspected EA.

Part of me so badly wants this meeting to go badly for W but my care for her and her psyche feels for her.

dg, I think the calm path you are on right now is a good one. You are presenting yourself as open and safe to be with, and you are attempting to make deposits in her LB. Don't be disconcerted about your efforts.

With all the drama that just happened a short while ago, this calm is good. It is also a great time for you to allow the AD's to kick fully in.

Take to heart it is not any one thing you do, it is the sum total of all you do while in Plan A. There's no aha moment. All change develops slowly over time, and it's like watching grass grow or paint dry. Just because you don't see progress doesn't mean there isn't any.

You are growing every day...even if you can't 'see' it. I can, through your posts.

Stay the course...
SD