He may not honor it. However, his response the the suggestion will give you an idea of how serious he really is. And when he is truly serious the seed will have been planted.

I do think that contacting the OW's SO will be your best bet. I would add the OW's PARENTS to that list, too, and exposing to them all at the same time to get the maximum effect. That can be a very effective EXPOSURE that is deathly to the affair.

Looks like your H will need to find a new job then, Freya. Its nearly impossible for you to recover your marriage when your H and OW continue to work together.

Harley recommends a strict No Contact and taking extraordinary measures such as changing jobs is essential.

Please seriously start thinking about this (New Job). If you re-read your latest post its very clear your husband is behaving like an addict. Acting as though he has no control over his behavior even in the face of loosing his family. He's addicted, every time he has any contact with OW you two will be back to square one.

Jo

Thanks for all the great advice. We have discussed him leaving his job and finding another. He is of course, resistant to that right now as he has managed to secure a position in a completely separate department from OW. This is a compromise because he will have no contact through work at all and no reason to see her through work, taking different elevators and in different towers.

One of the main reasons he is resistant to leaving is a financial consideration. I know that that seems inconsequential in the long run but it is also something I need to be concerned about now more than ever. In June of 2007 he will be able to be able to sell all his shares and we stand to gain quite a bit of money. I won't say that I haven't thought about that as being a plus under the present circumstances. If he were to leave now we would lose a lot. I don't however rule out his leaving this position and will consider that carefully.

Now that he has an apartment of his own, I feel that if the affair becomes physical again, they will have a place of their own to meet. So I guess I feel that might happen if he were at the same company or not. Maybe I'm just rationalizing.

He has said already that he would consider leaving this position, but we haven't discussed it in the last week at all.

He will be phoning today. I don't know whether to see him or not but Dr. Harley advised me to spend 15 hours a week with him alone, so I guess I better suck it up and do it. To say I am so angry at him right now is a huge understatement but I will try not to LB if we get together.

Maybe we will take the dog for a run or something along those lines. Something very casual.

Any more thoughts on the above?

Thanks so much,

Freya

P.S.


I will also discuss with him today the no contact letter.
I think that is a really good idea and will be watching his reaction carefully.

Thanks again

If it weren't for them working for the same company, the OW would no longer have access to his cell phone number, nor would she have indirect access to him or knowledge of his comings and goings to the extent she does now.

I think your situation is Harley text book. I see your husband not wanting to loose his family or marriage. But I also see he chooses to stay in contact with the OW. IOWs - He's on the proverbial fence.

If you keep yourself from love busting Freya, please try and spend that 15 hours a week with your husband as a couple. Doing things together. But with no love busting. I know its hard, but its not impossible.

Jo

Freya:
Take heart and take faith in what your husband is saying and doing, and remember he is going through withdrawal...or anticipating withdrawal if he's approaching NC. I'm no expert like these others, but I agree with exposing, exposing, exposing...especially on her side. I am also a huge fan of the addiction metaphor. It's so true.

My only input that might have relevance is an experience that I'm having now unrelated to my current experience as a BS. My best friend's husband is recently a FWH, and is still in withdrawal (it's been about 5 weeks). I told him early on that I would be his "sponsor" (with full knowledge of my best friend, of course...we have all been very close since college). He has called me many times when he's been triggered, and I can talk him through it.

So much of what he says is still foggy...I keep myself from saying, "Will you get OVER it?? Who CARES why she called you/why someone from your old job mentioned her/why she sent an evite to her new year's party?" But he just needs to process it in his own way, and I'm glad that I can be there for him (and at the same time, for my BF); because I am TOTALLY on the side of their marrige and making it work. He needs someone he can process this stuff with, who tells it like it is, who understands the A world, and who isn't personally wounded by what he says (as my BF would be if she had to listen to it).

My point in all that is maybe there is someone who can play that role for you and your H? Sounds like he wants to make it work, but is so drawn to the crack (or KoolAid as my BF's FWH calls it).

Wish you the best. It sounds like all in all, a good Christmas, just a rough start. Be extra loving to your girls. I know how icky it feels to know you've exposed them to ugliness...that's another reason Plan A is so appealing to me right now...my boys just see my love for my H and my personal strength (it only took me 6 months to get here...).

LilSis

Thanks LS:

I think it went much better today. My girls seemed settled and WH came over for hot chocolate this afternoon and then stayed and watch TV with the girls and generally hung around.

He just kept hanging out thinking of doing small chores, etc. and then asked if he could stay and watch a video with me, as the girls had some friends over. I said yes.

We spent some alone time and I brought up the no contact letter which he agreed to. He wasn't exactly enthusiastic but he did agree. I told him I sent him an email at his work(I thought he would be there this morning).

Turns out he was at his new apartment cleaning. The place is apparently very dirty and he says it gives him the creeps being there so is trying to make it more comfortable for himself. I have to say it sounds like a dump. I hope this will work in my favour.

Anyway, the email from me was to restate my intention to stop getting angry with him and really letting him have it. The issue is, of course, no contact. He has again promised that he will not talk with her or accept her voice mails. After he read it, he thanked me and hugged me. He also volunteered to give me his cellphone when he is at our house. This is obviously a minor gesture as he can then contact her after he leaves, but I believe a positive step because he has been spending so much time here.

After the video was over, he came over to where I was sitting and hugged me tight and then asked if he could spend the night claiming he was very tired. I hesitated several seconds (it was hard) but then I said it would be better if he went to his own place. He hung his head down, sighed and then said okay.

He wants to come back tomorrow to work on family room fireplace so I said that would be fine.

I have an appointment with Steve Harley tomorrow morning so I will let everyone know what he says. Hope I did the right thing.

Freya

Me-BS(50)
WH (48)
2 DDs, 19 and 21

Affair #1 Nov/03-Jan/06
DD#1 April 1/06
False Recovery
EA with OW#2 June/06-Nov/06
PA with OW#2 Nov/o6-Dec/06
DD#2 Dec 17/06
Asked WH to leave our home Dec 17/06

Here's a template for a no contact letter -

Dr. Harley?s (From SAA)

(OP), I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that (BS) did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay (BS) for the pain I have caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she?s been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely,
(WS)

Believer:

Thanks for the Plan B outline. We will use it.

Had an appointment with Steve Harley this morning and he would very much like to talk with my husband regarding how affairs start and what must take place to end them.

He said something very interesting. He believes that at most people who commit adultery automatically feel that the reason why is because they no longer love their spouse or that the marriage is already irretrievable. He says my husband has allowed his inappropriate friendships with female co-workers to carry on and then, when feeling hopeless about our marriage, the affair becomes an inevitability based on their deep friendship and eventual attraction. This is what causes an affair. Not necessarily lack of love for spouse or whatever else they usually say.

SH says we need to make up a plan for recovery but I feel my husband is in a fog and in withdrawl right now. I will try to be still and give him some time and space. He says he is not convinced my WH should come home yet even though we all want that to happen.

I talked to WH and he agreed to talk to SH. I was quite surprised so he has an appointment tomorrow morning. I do believe that my WH thinks that there must be something inherently wrong with me/us that makes it impossible to love me anymore.

WH is here again(what a surprise!) working on household projects. He wants to go to a movie later with our 2 DDs and me.

I'v been trying to be casual and not express anger, disappointment because I am SURE that he has talked with OW since he was here last night. No surefire proof but it just makes sense to me that he would do this since it has already happened several times since DD#2, Dec 17.

So I am looking forward to WH's reaction to SH. I pray that he will gain some insight and perhaps a seed will be planted.

Comments, anyone? Should I ask again about no contact on cellphone and push to find out if he has heard from her or just drop it for right now?

Thanks,

Freya

Just a suggestion regarding that damn cell phone, Freya.

I say buy a new cell phone, BUT this time buy one that has GPS capabilities for on-line tracking of your husband's whereabouts.

He should be in full agreement as to the need for this purchase as it fosters accountability on his part.

And also when he turns the phone into you the call history on the phone should not be recently deleted. Also, make sure you have on-line access to his call inventory (in-coming and out-going).

Jo

Resilient:

I agree... that damn cell phone. This is a company issued phone so I will ask aboutGPS capabilities. He just cannot go out and purchase his own phone for company business, the company issues them and provides so they can be in touch with him all the time.

How can i tell if there has been a deleted phone message or call by checking the history?

As to on line inventory, again this is company billing and I do not have access to these private company documents.

Freya

Can you request on-line electronic copies from his work?

Now wait a min, I have a better and more important question for you Freya.

Is there any legitimate "work reason" the OW should be calling your husband on his WORK funded cell phone, or visa versa?

I know they work for the same company, but if memory serves me they aren't in the same biz group.

Jo

One other question, Freya. Are you sure your husband doesn't have access to the cell phone bill (electronically on-line) where he's then required to expense it out?

I had got the impression from your prior posts that your H works for a fairly large corp, as do I. Typically thats the corp method for cell phone allocation usage and bill payment.

Jo

And yet another question for you, Freya.

Have you exposed the affair to their work yet? I'm sure HR and finance would be very interested in the fact they both use their work funded cell phones to further their adulterous relationship.

Jo

You want him back as a FORMER wayward husband, not as he is now. You have an ideal setup where he wants back but is struggling with his addiction.

Help him with the addiction by not enabling him. Draw boundaries for yourself for what isn't acceptable regarding his cheating behavior.

And spend this separation time following what Harley recommends (15 hours a wk) with no more love busters.

You can do it!

Jo

Resilient:

Thanks for the feed back and questions.

First of all, there would not be any reason whatsoever for OW to call WH on work related issues. As of Jan 1 their departments will completely separate and and unconnected.

I have not exposed at work yet. I told my WH in anger when I found out about the A that I would phone his boss, her boss, etc. and he freaked out. Said he would divorce me immediately. WH values his reputation and position there and would lose out big time with stock options if he were dismissed.

I am almost sure that the HR department has policies against using company cellphones for the purposes that these two used them for. I will keep this in mind for future use and I feel this is my ace in the hole almost.

I will try to find out about cell phone bill in the meantime.

I really feel that WH is struggling with his addiction to OW and is wavering. So I am trying my hardest for him to feel good about spending time with me with no LBing. Today we went to a movie with our DDs and then played pool. Earlier in the day, when he came over he handed me his cellphone for me to keep for the day while he is here.

It went pretty good, but I got down when I started to let the feelings of betrayal and utter shock and disbelief arise and burst into tears when we were playing pool. It didn't last long but he hugged me and told me again how very sorry he was. It does help to hear his apologies.

I know that he is struggling with choices that are facing him but I remain sceptical of him and I'm not sure what he is really thinking.

One more thing, I am definitely planning to expose to her boyfriend/SO when they return from vacation this weekend some time. I have his telephone number and name. She is supposedly in the process of telling him about the affair. I don't believe that for second.

How do I help him with the addiction by not enabling him specifically? I have basically told him he has to abide by no contact but am extremely sceptical that he has done so even though I don't have any real proof. What do I do if I find out he has been in contact with her again? Remember, he is already out of the house so it is really hard to find out about breaking no contact.

Thanks.

Freya

Just a short update on the situation.

WH was here yesterday doing stuff around the house but earlier in the day he had an appt. with Steve Harley. He shared just a little of what they talked about but seemed to be open to some of what Steve had to say. He also then asked if he could read the book SAA which I have asked to read repeatedly. So this is a small step in the right direction.

WH seems serious about our reconciliation/recovery but I'm still skeptical. OW returns this weekend sometime and this scares me.

Dr. Harley had previously told me to keep WH out of the house for at least two weeks. It will be 2 weeks this Sunday and then he said I would have a good idea about how serious my WH is about this.

Don't know what to do; I am torn. As Resilient says I don't want my WH back home, I want my husband. He has been pretty good the last few days.

As far as I know for sure, he last phoned OW on Dec 21. He really wants to come with me and the girls for our little side trip to mountain resort for 2 days. I mulled it over and over and then agreed. One of the reasons was because of Dr. Harley's advice to spend 15 hours of week with WH. Also, maybe a good idea since OW is returning sometime this weekend.

I don't know when it would be appropriate for WH to come home. Any thoughts?

Freya

I'm so happy he talked with Dr. Harley. He does very well in getting through to WS's.

It is very promising that your WS wants to go with you to the resort for 2 days. Usually they are too addicted to do family stuff.

Try to relax, and have a good time. The 15 hours a week is essential for building new wonderful memories together. Again, most refuse to spend time with the BS

I would EXPECT more contact, because that is just what they do. It is extremely upsetting when you think you are making progress and they go back to their addiction.

Also I would be sure to let OW's bf know what is going on. That may end it right there.

Yes, Freya! Have your WH come with you to the resort for those 2 days. Its a perfect opportunity to not only spend time together, but also make him inaccessible to OW.

Without saying, I'm sure you plan to be the "keeper" of his damn cell phone during this time, no?

Also as Believer has suggested, please don't forget to expose to OW's SO before leaving and don't tell your WH. It will make your trip that much more enjoyable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jo

Just an update on the past two days.

Well, we all went to the resort together and it was, as expected, a bit of an up and down experience.

First, just let me vent a little. WH said he would do his best to be "there" for our girls and have fun. He did okay on this but there are so many instances when we all caught him staring into the middle distance and completely ignoring our conversation. The girls kept saying stuff like "dad, isn't that funny" or "Dad, what do you think?" to which he replied "What?" I felt like slapping him upside the head and saying "SNAP OUT OF IT!"

This has happened so many times in the past and then everyone gets quiet. So anyway, we did have a few laughs but it is so hard to sit across from someone and laugh and smile and touch his hand when what I really want to do is scream "How could you hurt us like this!" or something like that. Anyway I felt I did pretty good but also felt I had a brittle smile pasted on my face for half the time.

I asked a few questions about OW when we were alone so just a little bit of LBing. Also one morning WH cuddled up to me and held me so I turned over and gave him a few kisses to which he responded "I really don't feel like having SF right now, okay". Sorry, but I couldn't help but be deflated.

Also, today when we left, we stopped in a clothing store at the hotel and I tried on a leather jacket which was very expensive. WH declared "You look hot. You better buy it" and tried very hard to buy it for me. WTF. Talk about a guilty concsious! Over my dead body will I allow him in any way to assuage his guilt by buying me expensive gifts.

Is this all just normal WH crap and how do you get over the extreme anger and hurt during this first little bit.

I am finding it way harder than the first time. Also I told WH I did not believe this second affair was PA since about 5 weeks ago. This does not make sense to me. I think it has been going on much longer. Perhaps, from the end of last affair (Jan06)? I told him at some point he needs to come clean about the details but that I believed it is not the right time right now. Dr. H encouraged me to just spend time with him these first few weeks. (DDay #2 Dec 17/06). Trying hard not to obsess about details.

Also, any words of advice. I found out OW and her BF are returning from vacation on Tuesday. I plan to let OWBF know about the affair. I have his name and phone number. Should I just call or what?

P.s. Resilient: I had his cell phone in my possession the whole time and he seemed fine with this. It just makes me think that they have found another way of communicating or they are waiting until she arrives back in town.

So any words of advice?

Freya