Hi everyone.

I am back after a couple of years off this board. I used to be known as Beeceemark, and may have even had another username (which I can't even remember) while I was going through the mess of my separation and divorce (started about 4 years ago).

Anyway, after a lengthy time of healing and growing, I am emotionally well and am pleased to be back to solicit and offer goodwill and advice where practicable.

I have been seeing a woman for about one year now. She is about 6 months younger than I am (43), and has one 12-year old daughter (I have 4 children who live with me mainly on weekends). She has never been married and was last in a relationship about 3 years ago (lasted 2 years and ended 3 years ago). I believe her never marrying is likely due to her parents splitting up when she was 10 and not talking to each other for 30 (yes, 30) years. However, I have no evidence for this, but it's a hunch and one she believes has played a part in her being on her own for so long.

My partner has become increasingly conflicted and confused about the possibility of more of a commitment with me over the past month or so. She says she has no clue whether this is a result of something long-past in her life or whether the one or two key differences between us (religion and political leanings) is the reason - or perhaps a little of both. I am a fairly conservative Christian and she is a very liberal Christian, with some Buddhist leanings. However, we both feel very close to one another and have far more in common than not.

My question for the women here is the following: after your divorce, were you ever with a man who you acknowledge you love and adore, but who you seemingly couldn't, or still can't, make a commitment to? Were you ever able to make a commitment or were you unable to do so - regardless of whatever effort he made to bring you closer?

My partner and I both had the most amazing past number of months, but I am reluctant to even attempt to reach out for more if she is not ready. Another question for the women: what would your reaction be if the male in question became less available or decided to pull back in order to allow you some processing time, or to let you know that he was not going to stay in limbo for a long length of time?

Anyway, we have both shied away from the "commitment" word or the "relationship" word, but I have increasingly been wearing my heart on my sleeve in recent months. Early in our relationship, it was the opposite, and I was honest with her about me seeing 3 or 4 women at a time until she and I became exclusive in April this year.

All comments appreciated.

I wish you all a happy Christmas and holiday season.

Mark

Hi mark,

Merry Christmas to you too and Happy New Year!

I'm sorry you hadn't received a response yet.Sometimes this board is so slow,as you may recall.

Anyway,I am not yet dating as I want to give myself several more months to "heal" before I put myself out there again.But,I was thinking,anyone that doesn't want to get married usually has an answer in their head,they may just need to be honest with themselves about it or be honest with the other person in the relationship.I don't really buy that your GF is clueless about why.

And although my parents went through a bitter D and I was witness to it all,I don't think that's always a reason to avoid marriage/committment as an adult yourself.I can understand the apprehension but that doesn't mean one can't be happy in their own choice.My parents still cannot talk to one another either very well,if at all but it made me want to have a better relationship/marriage than they had.




Have you tried to discuss this in depth? If she is feeling more unsure,she has to know why.It could be she doesn't feel you are the right "one" or,maybe she feels she isn't ready for more since it's only been a year.What is it exactly that you would like to see happen now? Engagement? How is your relationship with her daughter? Is your ex-wife in the picture too much? How does your GF get along with your kids?





Personally,I would not see this as a positive step unless I were looking to start exiting the relationship.This is when a deep,heartfelt, open discussion about what you both want and where you both see yourself in 5/10 years should take place.And not wanting to "stay in limbo" means to me that you want a lot more and she isn't giving you what you need.I basically said that to my ex WH when he couldn't decide between me and the OW.I was not going to "stay in limboland".

Was there any infidelity in your previous marriage?

Dear American Beauty:

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I knew it would be a slow couple of days due to Christmas. But, we all know that sometimes this board can be quite busy on the holidays, given that this is a difficult time of the year for some people.

I haven't yet taken the time to read your previous posts concerning your situation, but I was like you (I presume) in that I didn't date for what seemed like an inordinate amount of time. But, about two years after my marriage was over (though we were not still quite divorced), I did take the plunge into dating. I had the mandatory rebound relationship, which put me into a better headspace to date a series of other women, though only three others somewhat seriously.

to answer your questions, my current partner and I have discussed this in depth and, actually, have had two or three incredibly good visits (I dare say that things MIGHT be back where they were before all this started - though I'm not yet sure why). It might have something to do with me being less available (though certainly not NY less loving and committed), don't know.

As for what I want to see happen next, I am very content to let things be as they are for the foreseeable future. However, I don't necessarily believe relationships can stay static (they either need to progress somewhere or die, I guess). She just has a difficult time thinking that there somehow will have to be more pressure or something simply because of the length of time we have been seeing each other. She is very bright and very analytical and, like me, has a difficult time not over-analyzing everything. She has other friends who have been with their boyfriends for less than a year and are "buying houses together" or "having children". I supposed this scares her, though we both value having our own homes and neither of us want more (meaning additional) children. I have as good a relationship with her 12 year old as anyone is capable of having. Having a 12-year old myself, I know how challenging an age it can be. My GF loves my kids, but we are both careful not to involve the other too much with the other's kids, given that we want to protect them and know for sure ourselves.

My ex wife is in the picture only to the extent that we communicate well for our children (better now than the first three post-separation years). She is involved with someone else as well, and seems to be in a better place than she was. You asked about whether there was infidelity, and the answer is yes. My ex wife started cheating on me about 3 months after I moved out of the house (after I slept on the couch for 9.5 months). I know that some do not think this is cheating, but we were still married and at least one of us was actively working toward reconciliation. Anyway, that is all ancient history and I really want the best for her. My ex has done quite a bit to work on the outside of her body in terms of making improvements, exersizing, etc (she needs this for self esteem), and I hope she will take the same efforts on the inside now...

Thanks for answering my last question. Although I told my GF I have no desire to "exit the relationship", nor to even veil threats, she told me today that me deciding to possibly detach and possibly even start informally dating other women after an appropriate amount of time (with absolutely no sex involved, may I add) made her feel that I was standing up for myself and looking out for my interests. So, in my case, this seems to be working, though I made it clear I want to be with her only.

Anyway, I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to my questions.

Mark

Hi Mark! I will try and answer your question above, because my boyfriend and I are sort of in the same situation. I've been divorced for almost three years - my boyfriend for almost 7 years. We've been together for a year and 7 months, and going strong. He and I have a wonderful, comfortable relationship (after one speed bump we travelled over several months ago). All in all - we have a great time together - we have vacationed together, I've been included in his family (he has kids, I don't) and we are exclusive and very comfortable. His oldest daughter is getting married in 2008 - and he's already talking about me being included in the festivities - so this is a "long term" type of relationship we're in.

We are approaching a stage in our relationship that I hoped wouldn't happen for a long time....I'm anticipating the "where is this relationship going" question soon. You see, my ex wants to get remarried when his youngest is off to college (in 7 months) and I am no where near making that kind of decision yet. He's been making references to marriage lately more than he ever has the entire time I've known him. I'm not even sure if I want to remarry at all, but he is sure that he does. So, what will happen when the time is right for him? I dunno. Maybe at that time I will be ready - but if he were to ask me to marry him tomorrow, I'd say no. I'd be heartbroken to lose him, but I'd still say no. I'm never saying never, but I'm saying no for right now. Is it fair for me to continue on in this relationship - or should I let him go and find someone that is sure wants to remarry?

I would be happy as a pig in a sty to have things continue on this way forever, but I know that it won't last this way forever - he wants more eventually. He WOULD be a man that I could live with forever, if living with someone forever is what I was looking for - but I'm not right now. So, it's not that I have doubts about him - I just have doubts on whether or not I want to live with ANYONE forever again after my failed marriage. I LIKE being by myself - that's not an issue. I ENJOY my independence, but I also enjoy my time with him. I've got it great right now, but I know that eventually we will get to the point that you and your girlfriend are arriving at right now. How will I handle it? No clue.........I don't think I qualify as a "commitment phobe" - it's just that after an unsuccessful 12 year marriage, I'm just not that excited about getting into another one right now.

I hope you get through this - it sounds like you have a wonderful relationship. Are you ready for marriage again now? Or, are you looking for her to commit to marriage with you in the future?

I don't have any sage advice for you, I'm afraid. I just hope that you and your girlfriend can work it out.....don't give up - maybe just give her more time......

Dear TrulyHappytoBe:

I see quite a bit of my situation in what you say below. It's difficult to know that you can be very connected and emotionally in tune with someone and, dare I say, even in love with someone, and yet not be in the right mindset to even think about spending the rest of your life with them in a married state.

[/quote] THtoBE: We are approaching a stage in our relationship that I hoped wouldn't happen for a long time....I'm anticipating the "where is this relationship going" question soon. You see, my ex wants to get remarried when his youngest is off to college (in 7 months) and I am no where near making that kind of decision yet... If he would ask me to marry him tomorrow, I'd say no. I'd be heartbroken to lose him, but I'd still say no. I'm never saying never, but I'm saying no for right now. Is it fair for me to continue on in this relationship - or should I let him go and find someone that is sure wants to remarry? THtoBe: I don't think I qualify as a "commitment phobe" - it's just that after an unsuccessful 12 year marriage, I'm just not that excited about getting into another one right now. THtoBe: I hope you get through this - it sounds like you have a wonderful relationship. Are you ready for marriage again now? Or, are you looking for her to commit to marriage with you in the future? [quote]

Neither of us are ready for marriage right now. I'm just a bit fearful that we can't move ahead unless we both consider marriage or speak more long term. Right now we both look ahead in 2-3 month increments <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Thanks for your comments and I hope you and your BF can come to a meeting of the minds.

Mark

Hmm. I bounce back and forth on the marraige issue. I don't want to play house. It's deadly on relationships and can wreak havoc with finances. Marriage seems only less deadly on relationships, and there's so much more at stake. 50% of marriages end in divorce. Higher for second marriages, though I bet that's not true with our MB crowd. However, just think how few people are truly happily married. It's very dangerous.

I had been more pro-marriage recently. For example, I no longer feel nausous when I see a wedding dress. I consider that a HUGE improvement. I'm still not sure I could put on a wedding ring. UGH. Marriage felt like nothing so much as a cage, a trap, a boggy quagmire.

Anyway, I'm back being much less pro-marriage. I'm trying to figure out a rationale for playing house, but can't. Yet, I care deeply for this man.

One thing that is different, Mark. I have made commitments with M for next August and we're talking about a trip in October 07. Maybe trying to schedule some commitments six or nine months out would be a good start. Ease into things.

Mark - in my humble opinion, if she's making plans that include you in her life 2-3 months in the future, that's a GREAT sign! That says to me that she has no intention of leaving the relationship anytime soon.....And, speaking only for myself here, after living alone for this long, making a 2-3 month commitment is a huge step in the right direction. Your girlfriend is a single mom who has done a great job taking care of herself and her child for this long all by herself, she might just be taking baby steps into the land of "commitment". She sounds like a keeper to me. For those of us "older" folks who have been around the block a few times, I think it just takes a little more time to make those big decisions and life adjustments - but that doesn't mean we won't make them - it just might take us a little longer.

The only problem I can see (and I'm hoping it never happens - because it surely sounds like you two are a great couple) is if the day comes when one of you is ready - and the other is not - then it becomes decision time. But since you have said that neither of you is ready for marriage right now - enjoy what you have....

Greengables:

I hope you and your SO plan and have a fantastic October 2007 trip. Here's to taking it one day at a time, with a good dash of hope for future weeks, months and years!

Mark

Here's hoping. Funny how things seem to work out. No more than a few hours after I posted the first message in this thread, things started to dramatically improve with my GF and I again. We had another good time today together with our kids (swimming and then dinner at her place).

If only I hadn't driven home with her keys by accident <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I appreciate comments from those of you who shared. Thanks!

Mark

Hi again Mark,

My "situation" is old too.I was also a long time poster for a few years back and had another name but took a break,came back not remembering my old password,got a new name and thus here I am.

Well,if you are content to leave things as they are then that is good.As long as you feel comfortable with that and so does your GF.I can appreciate not wanting to give up your homes.I wouldn't want to either though I don't have to deal with all that yet.I am D'd but I am giving myself extra time to be sure I am healed before I put myself out there again.I am thinking maybe spring or summer to start dating.But I am having a grand time being on my own so I am enjoying this period for all it's worth.It's great you both get along with eachother's kids too.




Hmmm.Not sure what to make of that statement.On one hand,she is acknowledging that you might be feeling a need to see other's since things aren't exactly what you want,though you said previously you were ok with the way things are for the forseeable future? Kind of sends a mixed message do you think?

Maybe she is testing you to see how long you will stick it out.I know I tested the he** out of my now ex husband to see if he would falter.It took over 15+ years of building up trust, but he did falter (adultery) and it brought me to a very dark place.If I were her,knowing you said those things,I wouldn't feel good.It means to me that you are sensing a need to leave.She won't feel good about that although she says that she sees it as you sticking up for yourself,internally she may be thinking you are like all the rest.

I think if you really want to be clear about staying only with her then don't say things like informally dating other women,etc.Now,if YOU didn't say this to her and she suggested it,I'm sorry but it sounded like you brought it up.

This is a tough one. I know that many of us, after divorce, have a difficult time with a commitment to another person. I must be very sure of a woman before I will seriously commit to her. Sometimes, in the back of my mind this thought pops up "If my wife who bore my children can cheat on me and leave me, then any woman can". That's not fair to burden other women with that baggage and my mind tells me so. But, at times the heart speaks louder than the mind.

Give her some space and see what happens. The tighter you squeeze, the harder she will work to get out of your grasp.

One thing I have noticed is that at the times I do the least to get females interested in me, those are the times I seem to do the best. There's something about being taken for granted that makes us less desirable to women. I am not suggesting you ignore her or start dating others, just don't act like your life and happiness depend on her. Send her the message "I would like to be with you, but, despite the regrets, I will be fine without you."

Oh, get some good guy friends. The more good guy friends you have the better you can handle female problems.

Mark,

I am not divorced, but I did not marry until I was 39, so I sort of identify a bit with your GF. But I admit to being a little unclear about what you’re trying to achieve.

You sayIt sounds to me like you are asking her to say today that she will be ready to commit more at some point in the future. But how in the world can she say today what she will be prepared to do in the future?

So it seems that you would like her to commit more today, but are willing to wait a little while to see if you can get what you want tomorrow. But you don’t want to exist in this waiting stage forever. Fair enough. All very very reasonable. But I’m afraid that the answer to the situation is not to seek assurance that her level of commitment will change. Rather, I think the thing to do is decide today what is an acceptable period of time to wait. A very personal decision – there is no universal answer. But pick a time period that feels right to you.

Also, I’m really not clear on what specifically you want from her in the way of greater commitment. What is the specific change you would like to see take place? Marriage? Exclusivity? Something else? I’m not trying to be provocative here. I’m simply not clear on what you’d like to have that you don’t have now.

Finally, what are your feelings about your religious and political differences? I get that you perceive that your commonalities are greater than your differences. But what are your feelings about these specific differences?

Hi Curious53:

Thanks for your comments.

As far as your questions or comments are concerned, I guess it would be somewhat unrealistic of me to ask her to commit some sort of future feelings when she isn't in a position to do so right now.

So, yes, I do have to ask myself the all-too-personal question "how long am I prepared to wait"? I suppose the answer is that I am prepared to wait quite a long time. Waiting isn't an issue with me. The issue over the past month or so is GF's confusion about things in light of the fact that I haven't asked her for anything more of a commitment or exclusivity than we have now. It's also quite ironic that she admitted to me yesterday that she made up a list of qualities she would like to see in a long term partner when she was in college (20 years ago) and I, for some odd reason, met all 30 of her criteria. I take this with a grain of salt, for obvious reasons, but it made me feel very good - especially in light of the fact that her last partner only had about 7-8 of the qualities she was looking for, and the father of her child only 2.... She even said to me, "what's wrong with me that I would even question a relationship with someone who offers me so much"?

What do I want in terms of greater commitment? I guess over the long term, I want to re-marry. This is for two reasons. First, I don't believe in long-term relationships that involve great degrees of intimacy without marriage. I think people get hurt too easily otherwise (this is my opinion only of course, as I know of many couples who are not married, but have been together a long, long time). This goal of mine does scare her, no doubt.

My feelings about our religious and political differences are less onerous or conflicting to me than they are to her. The political differences mean very little to me - as long as we treat each other with respect. As for the religious differences, it is true I was brought up in a tradition that does not think highly of being in relationships with persons who do not necessarily share all aspacts of your faith. However, I was married to someone who shared my faith, and this was a very painful period, and one which involved infidelity, as well as her taking legal action against me on our 13th anniversary (very, very hurtful). So, I guess I am not as "wed" (pun intended) to the notion that I have to be with a conservative Christian (though I do believe that would be an ideal thing under the right circumstances).

Anyway, thanks for your insights. They are appreciated!

Mark

Hi AmericanBeauty:

I guess my earlier statement is a little ambiguous. What I meant is that I am very satisfied with the relationship with my GF so long as she is not detached. When she is detached (which she has been, but now appears not to be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), I feel like I do not have a relationship and it makes me want to look for one....

Hope this makes sense.

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark,

I was about to ask you what you meant by this:
But I think you already answered my question in your response to American Beauty thatTo that all I can really say is I feel ya. But also, don’t forget that there’s a natural ebb and flow to all relationships. So don’t ignore the detachment, but consider that maybe it’s just a temporary, cyclical thing. Perhaps like resting before pushing on to the next leg of a journey. (But that’s just a maybe. If she’s mean when she’s in a bad mood, then just walk away. No good can come from that.)

I would urge you to meditate a little more on this:If I were your GF, and I knew you felt this way, I would feel somewhat uncomfortable for a couple of reasons. First, I would worry that I’m not the most appropriate match for you. Second, I would worry that during difficult times (which are inevitable), you might chanage your tune. And finally, I would always wonder if you were secretly hoping to convert me. Now, I don’t know you, and I’m not a religious person at all, so I’m not claiming that this is what is going on in GF’s mind. But just spend some time with yourself thinking through this topic, ok? No need to respond to me.

I don’t know if it will help or not, but I’ll share a bit of my story with you. I met the man who later became my husband as I was coming out of a long, horrible relationship After one false start, we started dating and quickly became exclusive. It was a great relationship – healthy, affirming, tons of fun. But there was always an odd voice in my head that said, “This is fun, but if he disappeared tomorrow, I’d be fine.” After a year, we moved in together (a move that was mostly job-driven more than relationship-driven, since we only lived a block apart before that). I was pretty nervous about taking that step, but lo and behold, it was great. We never talked marriage. I was so happy with the relationship, that I didn’t want to do anything that might change it. Two years later, we bought a house together. Another big, scary step that went great. We lived like that for almost 5 years before I finally felt secure enough in the long-term strength of our partnership to get married. And so we did. But I was so scared. As our wedding day approached, I kept asking him, “What if we hate it?” Finally, about 2 weeks before the wedding, I asked that question yet again, and he answered, “We’re happy now, right? So if we hate it, we’ll pretend it never happened, and go back to being happy.” I can’t tell you how much more peaceful I was after he said that. After we married, people asked us how married life was, and our answer has always been, “Just like unmarried life, which was our plan.”

So what am I trying to say to you? I’m not entirely sure, but I think it’s this: I was very risk adverse about my relationship. I felt nervous about each step forward. I really didn’t feel comfortable making a step forward until I could say I had observed long-term success in the relationship up to that point. Not that I had articulated it to myself that way at the time. But I can see it now. I needed to see the relationship working well over time, and I needed to break take specific, discrete steps toward greater commitment – I couldn’t do it all in one big leap.

Maybe your GF is like me? Maybe she needs to see the relationship working well over time before she can take a new step. And maybe she’s afraid that the only next step is marriager. If you think any of that is close to being true, then maybe it would be helpful if you could define a couple of next steps that fall short of marriage but still require greater commitment and partnership. Not necessarily co-habitation or home buying (I realize they’re probably not consistent with your values), but something . . .

Dear curious53:

Excellent, excellent words of wisdom, which I will spend time thinking about. Thanks VERY much. I need to read your story because I am unclear if you are still with the man you eventually married and had a wonderful relationship with.

I apologize for not taking the time to read the many moving experiences from people on this board, as I know I can learn a great deal from many of you. However, I am in the middle of 9 days with my children and can't seem to find the time to do very much at all.

Happy new year,

Mark

Mark,

No worries. My story isn't really out there much. But yes, I am still with my husband, and we are still very happy. While I know that the sequence of events in our relationship is not for everyone, I have no regrets and would not change it for the world. The way we did it was right for us.

I also realize that your children are a complicating factor here -- in a good way, of course. That you must take them into account in your decisions. Our situation was must simpler in that sense.

Best of luck to you. I hope you have a wonderful New Year's celebration with your children.

Continuing on from my previous question (below), it seems I could use some additional advice. So, for anyone who wants to put their $0.02 in, that would be appreciated.

In the midst of the issue described below, I made the mistake of going to visit a former girlfriend of mine in her home - not once, but twice (this was over a period of two weeks).

To set some context, my current GF and I have an understanding that we are exclusive, do not date other people, but do continue to keep existing friends of the opposite sex in our lives (i.e. people we knew before we knew each other). Of course, this does not mean we can engage in sexual contact with these people). Unlike my GF, I do happen to have remained friends with two women I used to date after my divorce. One of these women is engaged now, but we are still close friends, and the other has been in and out of a few relationships since I was with her a couple of years ago.

My present partner and I have a very honest relationship, and good communication is the norm between us. In this light, I did recently tell her that I saw my former GF on a couple of occasions at her home. My former GF and I had dinner at her place twice, as we continue to be close friends, though we do not see each other very much. My current GF is not opposed to me going out to a public place with my other friend, but thinks I showed poor judgment going to her home. I should say that I am the one who decided that my former GF and I could not continue in a "special" relationship, and she definitely still has more of an interest in me than I do in her.

Some of you may ask why I would still see an old GF. The answer is, as many of you have experienced, this person still means a great deal to me as a friend. We were also the first people to come into each other's lives in a significant way after our divorces and do honestly remain friends. However, we both did decide that it would be best to not have a long-term relationship.

Nothing more than a couple of hugs took place on the two occasions I was there and I was careful about that. She needed some advice from me and we thought this was the best way to go about it - rather than in a noisy or non-private restaurant, etc.

Anyway, after discussing this with the women I am presently involved with, I realize that I would have been hurt if the shoe was on the other foot. She asked me to post this here and ask all of you, even though I told her I would most likely be nicely pilloried for my indiscretion.

So, the question is: was I wrong to visit a former GF, twice, in her home, when I am in an exclusive relationship with someone else?

Mark

I don't think you made a good choice by going to this woman's home twice. Especially knowing she has (had?) feelings for you that may include continuing a "special" relationship.

I understand the connection you feel with her but at this point, considering your current relationship, I'd make the effort to include your current GF in any contact you have with the former GF or, at least, only meet in public places.

I don't know that there is anything inherently wrong with what you did, Mark. You knew that nothing "improper" was going to happen, so at root it was not a problem.

However, sometimes it's important to consider how things could appear. In that sense, "indiscretion" is indeed the right word, because your actions could easily have been misinterpreted. Also, prudence dictates that opportunities for temptation be avoided when possible, which is a principle that may or may not be applicable here. I have more than once had a woman come to my house to discuss personal matters, where she knew I had a strong "interest" in her and she did not have such an interest in me. We were both comfortable doing this, since we had established sufficient trust with ourselves and each other that we knew nothing would "happen" that either of us would regret. To be sure, this was not ex-girlfriend, and neither of us were in a relationship such that there was anyone who might be made uncomfortable, but I'm not sure that these are material differences. It still boils down to matters of propriety (on which contemporary society has no firm concensus) and trust.

In the end, I think this is really a matter to be addressed by the POJA, and not a matter of right or wrong.