Wow, you're feeling the same thing I keep going back to feeling - not loving my wife enough to save our M.

After a looong discussion we had this weekend, assuming she was truthful, I found out some details about her affair that really scare me.

She basically admitted to totally manipulating this OM for her own selfish desire for attention and then ending it b/c she just got tired of him. She did not say this directly, but that is how I understood her. He apparently fell madly in love w/ her, and she just dumped him like an old shoe.

Then hearing how she fooled me and everyone around when she snuck off to see him, it really is scarey how good of a liar she is.

I have really been questioning lately why do I even want to save a M to such a wicked woman???

But, it's times like today that I can continue w/ Plan A and hope that this alien that has possessed my W will leave and the old W that I truly do love will return. We spent the afternoon together w/ the kids, and I left her w/ a gift. She called later to tell me that she really liked it, then called me again before she went to bed to just talk to me, not the kids.

Well we have another thing in common in our situations.

My wife has also proven to be very manipulative and cunning.

Unfortunately, she was that way even before the marriage and affairs. It was the one trait about her that I detested. To be fair, she has managed to keep those "skills" under control for most of our married life to the best of my knowledge.

Now the gloves are off and she is a regular Modesty Blaze.

Her ability to scheme and lie is a great enabler for the affair and a constant reminder of the thing I dislike most about my WW.

Do I really want to continue my future with such a woman?

O&H is one of my biggest ENs. One that she has never did a good job of fulfilling.

Really wish I could find the strength to resume a Plan A effort and wait for her to snap out of it but man, it just is not in me at the moment.

opheliagrimm -

I have been following your story and am in a similar situation with my B(now W)H. I have been able to learn a lot from your thread and I hope that your W will soon see your efforts.

May God bless you and your children, and may He return your W to you a new woman.

well today, some good news.

My WW called, from her new cell phone. The "affair phone" lol

She has NEVER done this before. Not sure if it was a slip or was intentional. Either way, she called.

I called back and turns out she wanted to talk to our son, who is staying with me at the moment.

It's a small development but a welcome one!

My love bank is dry and I'll take anything I can get at this point.

Especially since I am no longer being a door mat. Expected nothing but fire and brimstone from WW.

Heard that she cut off all of her hair. A somewhat typical act of a woman in depression. Really think that the affair is over now and she is winding down.

Also heard that she is spending more time at her mother's home with my other kid.

Could it be that the fog is clearing?

Since I've stopped being a door mat, I also took some drastic actions with her OM and his crew. After a run in with the OMW, the OM sent me death threats (again). This time, I did not back down but gathered up some friends and made a spirited effort to hunt him down and "straighten him out". If you catch my meaning.

We did report the incident to the police as well. Just for good measure.

I think a clear message was sent. No longer is the BS (me) crying and taking up a fetal position in a corner. I am ready and set to fight and defend my rights as a man. Regardless if my WW gets upset or not. Door mat no more!

Though she won't admit it, I think she respects the new me and this new stance.

Still not 100% sure I want back in on this marriage myself but maybe that is exactly where my mind needs to be to make progress.

My prayers were for reconciliation and so they shall remain even if my mind now thinks differently.

Incidentally, my copies of SAA and HNHN arrived. Bought both the CD and Book versions of HNHN. Listened to four out of the five CDs in the car thus far. Great stuff. Worth every penny and echoes a lot of the advice on these boards.

Wish my WW would join me in the process (fat chance at the moment)

Sounds like things are better for you. Do I remember that you 2 share a car? If so, keep the cds in the car. She may be curious and sneak a listen.

Btw - I have been reading Power of a Praying Wife and since that time things have been easier on me and better between us. Might I suggest Power of a Praying Husband for you?

Yeah, we did share a car, during our time of false recovery.

I thought the affair was over and gave her support (car, financial, etc..) expecting it to be for the good of the family and marriage. Only to discover it was being used as a party/sex mobile.

When she said I could no longer borrow the car after a heated argument over the continuing affair, I took it back (love busters anyone??)

Not likely to get her to listen to a CD in it as this stage. lol

Thanks for the suggestion re: Power of a Praying Husband but I think my spiritual efforts have been bearing fruit. Not that you can ever have too much prayer in your life. lol

I feel close to God now, more than ever and truly has seen his grace in my life. (if not my WW's, definitely in mine)

but wait! I've got more good news. (I think)

Today I passed by her parent's home to pick up some clothes for my 9 year old son. She was there and we talked. It was totally civil. I'd dare say friendly. In the conversation she mentioned that she no longer had any dealings with the "crew", a bunch of young guys that limed with the OM.

Also, that she only had a few things left at her apartment. Suggesting that most of her stuff had already been moved into her mothers place, with the kids.

Saw her new hair style and it is exactly the same as 11 years ago when we first met. I mean the same. A bit euphoric for me.


What's more, I pushed my luck and asked for my 1 year old daughter to spend the weekend over at my place. She agreed and proceeded to pack up some bags for my baby girl.

We even hugged when leaving.

A-M-A-Z-I-N-G

On top of which she gave me the go ahead to pass out her "affair phone" number to my aunt and mom. So they could reach her.

Either this is clever pre-divorce tactics to look like a good mom for custody reasons or the fog is clearing.

Any experts care to chime in here on what is to be made of these recent developments?

33% of me says that she just wanted the kids gone so she could go back to partying this weekend, guilt free.

Another 33% says it is a ploy for custody, probably on good advice by her lawyer.

The last 33% says the fog is clearing and God has touched her heart once more.

What sayeth thou?

Well today I gave her my copy of "surviving an affair"

At first she refused it, but then I told her it was very enlightening and that it also described the perfect marriage.

Something that may be useful, even if we go our separate ways.

She accepted it.

Seeing that we both had affairs, I figure the book would do some good.

Gonna give her a week before asking about it.

Incidentally, a new tenant just moved in by my apartment and she is HOT!

Something to help keep my mind off WW. lol

WW called today.

Said she has been getting some strange text messages and wanted to know what was the OMW's number, to verify if it was her.

Now, I hesitated, but gave her the number.

I'll tell you why

1) She may have just wanted the OMW's number for her own reasons. To call and talk about the OM or send her some threatening text messages, etc..

2) I didn't want to LB by not being open and honest with the information. As there is a chance that her fog is clearing. Otherwise would have asked her to call out the number for me of her strange txts and see if I can match it up instead.

Point 2 got the better of me.

She said the number of the strange text messages and that of the OMW did not match.

Not sure what to make of it.

Did offer to help her move at the end of the conversation.

She said thanks but didn't say if she would take me up on the offer.

Oh well, not an exciting update but thought it was worth mentioning.

hey there... thought I'd return the favour and read your thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

not much to say.. except to say "hang in there", and congratulations for straightening out your own actions.

PS: I wouldnt get caught up in pondering about "the state of the fog". that's just an abstract term. a concept.

If your wife is willing to talk about things, then talk. If she's not willing, then dont.

I hope that your wife is at a point where she is willing to talk to you about things. My only suggestion(not that i'm particularly good here :-/ ) , is to not push too hard; dont expect a "win" out of a conversation. Just talk, and see where it leads.

good advice.

right now, I am hoping she reads the copy of Surviving An Affair that I loaned her. That may give us a pretty meaty positive subject to talk about. That of the affair proof marriage and whether we would want to try the methods outlined in the book to save our family.

Will raise the topic at the end of the week and see what she says.

I'm at the stage now where her account in my love bank has a zero balance. So unless we are going forward in a very positive way, I am ready to move on.

OG,

Would you consider the belief behind your statement "I'm at the stage now where her account in my love bank has a zero balance. So unless we are going forward in a very positive way, I am ready to move on" is the same as when you chose to have your affair?

The belief that what you feel is real...indicators about reality...when they aren't. Part of the wayward state of mind...to react to our feelings...to choose our lives from them...instead of directly from our beliefs, which is where they come from?

To continue to choose to react to your feelings (or lack of them) instead of choosing what you believe...your choice to love and act from your love (which is where feeling loving and loved COMES from a a result)...as part of your walk of redemption, amends...so you can know you did everything you could to save your marriage, your family...and let go the outcome?

Long road ahead...why not choose to make it longer than your EA/PA...which roughly lasted four months? Why not commit to eight months of saving your marriage? Begin with March and count from there before you choose to move on...nearly to Christmas. What do you think?

LA

I agree with you Loving Anyway.

My plan A/B should last till December before throwing in the towel.

That decision was based on readings on this website and forum.

Two things are influencing my current position.

1) My wife has filed for divorce

2) Now that I have read both His Needs Her Needs and Surviving an Affair, I feel empowered.

Not only to save my marriage, but to move on.

The love bank concept was made so clear and so well illustrated that I am excited to try it out with my spouse (or a future spouse)

Knowing that my giver is exhausted and that my WW affair has drained her account down to zero in my love bank does not help the matter either.

Our situation is the worst case scenario. Double Infidelity. It obliterates both Love Banks. Making reconciliation very difficult. In his books, Dr. Harley says it is very difficult when one party has an EA/PA. Imagine when both do within a very close time frame. Ours pretty much happened simultaneously.

Our chances are slim and I am exhausted. Still praying for a miracle. (Miracle = wife reads SAA and wants to stop divorce and work on marriage)

OG,

Did you notice I've walked in your shoes? We both had EA/PA's...and I have had more than one. I was a serial cheater. Were you?

"Two things are influencing my current position.

1) My wife has filed for divorce"

How does this determine your goals, your choices?

"2) Now that I have read both His Needs Her Needs and Surviving an Affair, I feel empowered.

Not only to save my marriage, but to move on."

How can you live and choose your actions from dual goals? That's what I'm seeing...if you choose to save your marriage, takes you staying away from considering any future woman (even a blank in your mind)--and accepting that even if your are divorced by your WW...let's say, next January...then you won't be ready for another relationship for another two years.

You're worth that healing, knowing time. So are others. Or you'll repeat your choices, perceptions, perspectives....and you're worth not repeating that pain.

"Knowing that my giver is exhausted and that my WW affair has drained her account down to zero in my love bank does not help the matter either."

How about some ownership, though I appreciate you sharing your Giver feels exhausted. You chose to give and give...to doormat and to resent. Thank GOD your Giver is exhausted from your choice to over use and override your Taker. Now you have the opportunity to own, experience balance and live from respect. Giver's are disrespectful when lived from without Taker's input.

It's a life of self-deception.

Your own Giver also drained your love bank...you had your half...WW had hers.

Which is why we learn to mind our own...get out of our own way and not see ourselves as being done to...we focus on what WE are choosing to do which drains our own account.

As a BS, I didn't experience my love bank being drained by my WH...I experienced that as a WS. At times, I felt no love, no loving feelings...and traced them to me not acting from love and respect again...falling into old patterns, choosing from old beliefs. I experienced as a BS, for the first time in my life, filling my own love bank...through awareness and choice.

My DH recommitting to the marriage and acting from his choices, doubled it.

Had he not chosen the marriage...I would have fought for my marriage for longer...through exposure, Plan A and bringing reality. My marriage was worth that. Even when I didn't think my WH was...

Your chances are the same as mine were...double infidelity isn't uncommon...takes the same formula as the single kind...Entitlement, fueled by reseentment and lack of respect.

What I see in you, in your reply, are those very things. Which is why you went wayward to begin with...and why I did, too. You actively crushed pain into your W...and she crushed it right back.

You made your choices, your feelings, your life dependent on her feelings, thoughts, beliefs...and you had yours all along. Your own. Do you want to stop doing that right now? Your choice. You have a 9-year-old boy and a baby girl...you are twice blessed. No matter what the outcome is of your efforts (not in your control) they will learn how to either own their own stuff (and what their stuff truly is), or to be as dependent on someone else (enmeshed) as you are with WW...who is NOT your W...she's WW. The alien replica.

What you learn, know and understand now about yourself will determine the rest of your life, and greatly influence your children.

I strongly urge you is to ask yourself...what's the false payoff in judging your odds as slim? In judging your odds at all? We do that to base our decisions...and it's not applicable in your choice to save your marriage.

Your Giver is exhausted, you're exhausted...from what, exactly? From choosing to believe you love and act from it; choosing to know reality from fantasy and live in it; from living from respect in every moment? Or from giving to get and falling down that false rabbit hole...and calling that love?

This is my tough love to you, OG. Don't talk the talk if you're unwilling to walk the walk. That's a wayward mindset. You are choosing your life with more knowledge than you had before...choose well and true...not from feelings (exhausted, nearing hopeless, based on possible response)...that's how you got wayward in the first place.

Resentment and lack of respect includes unreasonable expectations (giving to get, tit for tat), believing humans earn love (force it out of others through your own actions), and a whole lotta FOO stuff in the creation and justification of resentment.

Know your own ingredient...choose to go for clarity, not judgment...and then see if you're empowered or exhausted. You can't be both, because one is fantasy and one is reality.

Know what you do to others, like giving to get love...you do to yourself...you make yourself earn love and punishment.

I've read your whole thread...and haven't seen you own your affair...where you've focused on all your whys, your permissions...where you know your choices every step of the way.

I haven't seen you own them here or to your WW. I see you saying "My wife" a whole lot, sometimes WW..back and forth. I see you as choosing to react and not to act...to LB and not amend. I saw where you said you'd AVOID DJs...not eliminate them...and I saw nowhere that you'd do all this, this true hero's journey for you...only more giving to get like the last 10 years.

First thing I did when I discovered my WH's affair was going after he said they broke up (when I finally came enough to my senses to ask for reconciliation)...was to tell him to leave. In your case, she left. Within one week, I got to where I knew his pre-A pain...read his journals, really got all the pain I'd crushed into him for years...15 to be exact. And that's when I began changing...

I wrote out amends...owning each choice I made, owned why I chose it and how I wouldn't make that choice again. Took seven emails, different areas. I did it for me. I sent it to him.

I found marriage builders and kept plugging. I asked for equal time spent with me as with OW...refi'd the house to give him a living allowance...refused to pay anything for his affair, in anyway. I heard on Oct 10th that he'd let me go from his heart...wanted a divorce. And on 10/12, he went to our first MC session. Had I based my choices on his feelings, we'd have been screwed, wouldn't we?

Don't base your stuff on hers...or you will be, too. Because if you truly move on...like with hot tenant and your permission to fantasize in your head...you will continue to falsely self-soothe, and will be a serial cheater like me, living externally, wrecking a lot of lives...and relationships.

Back to MC...our MC lived from truth. He asked us what each of our goals were...mine was to save the marriage. My WH's was to decide if he would leave it for OW, leave to work on himself, or work on the marriage. MC honored those goals. Told WH that to make his choice cleanly, he'd have to go NC with OW...whom he worked with. WH didn't after the first session. Next session, MC asked if he'd broken it off...it was a private session between them...IC with MC...and while driving away from the session, my WH called and broke it off with OW. Right then. Right there. And yes, NC was broken many times...I chose to accept my WH's goals were different, and focus on my own. He moved back into our home in two weeks. We began to do 20 minute R talks each week...and big time RC time. Not tv. We were assigned communication exercises...which were exercises in listening and respect. They work if you do them. We did them twice a week for over a year and a half. We still do them when one of us asks for them...times of disconnect...and yes, they reconnect.

My WH remained in broken contact, and presence three days a week with OW...he mourned her, and I had to get really set in my belief that OW was fantasy (as were all my OM's)...to listen and repeat without LBing. I didn't always succeed during his mourning. Two months after first MC session, he recommitted to the marriage...by saying, "I'm only doing this because I believe a long way down the road, this is my best hope for happiness. I'm doing this for our son, not for you. I realize, eventually, I will have to consider you. That will be a long time from now."

He did that on the night of our oldest son's wedding day.

And yes, we're recovered. I honor and admire his O&H...which, like yours, was my top EN...and what I was least giving. Know your half, OG. It's yours.

A lot of my story is in 2BNormal's older thread...and in Owning All Your Villagers Thread...and in every post, truly, I make. I'm not attacking you; may darn well feel like it. You say your affair was from lack of SF EN...I call self-deception...bull dung drops. We don't create entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect from our spouses not meeting one EN. We do it from not being O&H ourselves, from not speaking, sharing, seeing all of our spouses as new, everyday...We DJ our way into fantasy...which is the fog...and live there. By choice.

Reality is better...and God didn't design you to live in fantasy....he said, where your thoughts dwell, there is your treasure...and like me, I bet you treasured the heck out of a lot people you met and worked with, and wondered about...NOT your BW, your son and daughter...and you did this all your life...not just in your marriage. Your solace, your right, what you deserved...a break from the exhaustion of giving and not getting. Know you did this to yourself so you will not choose to do it again.

And save your marriage by saving yourself.

Now, I went back and filled in about MC and lost my way to the rest of the post. Dang. No segue. Lots of reactivity in me from my past...which is why I'm posting to you. I am telling you straight from my heart, my experience and over two years in recovery. The way is worth everything. You vacillate between, yes to a year, and oh, it's over. You betrayed yourself by even agreeing to a divorce. If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything. Find your ground...that's your own. Read these marvelous threads where others show you how to stop reacting and choose your acts of love, your commitment to self.

You can do this.

(Still no segue...here's what I wrote before I post-jacked myself. I'm really trusting you're half of this communication...and that your perception will be open and just more than defensive.)


That's you. Your life. Your choice. No ownership, no truth. You will live in self-deception, resentment, a fog of it's own...until you choose not to...

Clear your lines means when you expose, you purify your intent to share truth because it's the right thing to do...solely. You don't, as you did, do it to manipulate a response, to make others, like WWWFF do or not do...you don't blackmail...you either live from truth or lies.

You're living from lies. You are manipulative and cunning...exactly how you defined WW. Easier to see in her than yourself.

That's why you'll repeat. Because you continually base YOUR OWN choices on others' possible response...which is a living DJ...not from your own code.

What are your boundaries around you...what you do not allow yourself to do to others or to yourself (no matter what)? Same code is what you enforce around yourself and do not allow others to do to you...which is the Carrot and the Stick, IMO.

Balance. Giver and Taker in harmony...no exhaustion, doormat, manipulation (which DOORMATS are manipulative and cunning), no SDs, or AO's...'cuz you're living up to your own code, your life, owning your stuff and not taking on others' stuff.

Your reactive behavior is your legacy right now. You have the power to change it. You chose to continue to attack your marriage and your BW when OW threatened suicide...you put her choices above your family. You valued her life more than your BW's. Then you reactively valued your WW's with her threat of suicide. And you didn't once own the value of your own life and choices...and you contemplated doing away with yourself.

Well, your authentic self is innocent. Your self-image is killing your relationships...why not focus on My Self, not My WW...so you can truly live, for the first time?

And thrive.

And change your legacy, like a hero does. At any given turn. Living to his code, his boundary...not flailing in the wind and DJing others and himself.

To live purely, I'm asking you to choose your intent purely. You didn't follow into an affair...you were doing your pattern. Nor did your WW. OW didn't make you do anything, at any time. Nor did BW. You did it. You chose to do all of it, every step. Change your steps, change your pattern.

Do it for you, your marriage and your family. What we do to honor the marriage, we do even when we don't "feel" like honoring our spouses. Do it, anyway.

(You had great posters tell you just this...and I didn't see you own or respond with acknowledge of your own choices. If you want to live in truth, you gotta know it and share it. Begin here. Change our life.)

LA

P.S. As for maturity...that's where I differ. I have never met an infidel of any age who was mature...affairs come from acting from the child inside us in adult ways. Growing through this, giving it your all, helps us stay in our adult lives more...recognize when we aren't...and choose well. Maturity comes the act of choosing to live by your code, from respect and acting from love. Period.

A very potent post LA.

I'm not quite sure how to respond. Seems you have taken a bite out of so many aspects of my situation and the very core of who I am.

Also not sure how to proceed.

Let me try and take it from the top:

You asked how the divorce affected my thinking, my goals, my choices.

My wife filing for divorce sent a signal to me that despite my best efforts she was still willing to terminate the marriage. This stung since my WWWFF got back with her husband who not only continued to cheat on her but was also physically abusive. Her account in my love bank was already near rock bottom so this move just took all the steam out of me.

I should stick to my original plan to hold out for a year despite this development. It was only stated as a response to "why" the change of heart.

How do I live with dual goals.

The answer: I don't.

Initially my goal was clear. Save my marriage.

Now my goal is "save me".

By that I mean, make myself the best man I can be. A relative success story for myself and my kids. Not my WW.

I have prayed intensely for her to break from the fog and return to our marriage. A miracle no less.

My faith in God keeps this as a very real outcome. Back on planet earth however, my focus is different. In short, while working earnestly on me, I am leaving her to the Lord.

He works in mysterious ways and maybe my waning interest in the marriage at a mental and emotional level is what is necessary for my WW to snap out of her fantasy. The doormat operation has exhausted me and my love bank as you rightly surmised and maybe this new direction is what it will take to open her eyes.

I can steer clear of hot tenant and other such attractive women until december. Nothing more than light banter. My marriage is worth that even if I don't think the WW is worth it anymore. The grass is seeming so much greener outside now that it isn't even funny. December 31st and not a day longer! lol

Can't agree on waiting two years after that LA. Two years without a significant other is a very scary proposition. While I appreciate the notion of healing time, I'd like to give that a try with a special someone in my life. Using the HNHN and SAA as constant guides so we don't end up in the same boat.

I acknowledge that my odds are slim and also that recovery is going to be a long painful process. Experience shared on these forums confirmed that early on. It helps me set realistic expectations. That is the major benefit. It did not discourage me from going down the path of reconciliation.

My giver is exhausted from giving. lol. Somehow I confused Plan A with Plan Doormat. That didn't do me any good at all. It was my mistake, I readily admit. Had I read SAA and HNHN earlier, say in December, Plan Doormat would never have happened and my Love Bank and Giver would be in much better shape today. Infact, I'd dare say my WW's affair would not have gone PA if my actions were more in line with the advice in those books. DJs and LBs around December pushed her further and further towards the OM and me back into the OW. Plan Doormat later on didn't help either.


Hmm, I don't think I'd go on to be a serial cheater with HNHN, SAA and the bible leading me. One thing for certain, my spouse has to be on board with all three. If not, I won't risk the relationship. The wisdom in the bible and Dr. Harley's books should be sound enough to keep us from walking down the path of affairs and emotional destruction.

My WW and I would readily agree that the marriage was filled with neglect of many ENs by both parties. There is a reason I cited SF EN as the cause for my eventual fall. The OW used intimate details about my sexual desires gleaned from my WW to coax me down the path of infidelity. Ultimately it was my choice to commit the act but she had insider information on my sexual fantasies unlike many that had tried before. When I realised it was an EA leading to PA my own self defense mechanisms kicked in and I attempted NC on my own. The Ow did not let up and the rest is history.

Are you saying I should not have agreed to the divorce?

What would have been the recommended recourse when she filed?

I resent being called manipulative and cunning. I am a selfless person by nature and the furthest thing from manipulative and cunning. My entire life has been an open book and you won't find someone as transparent as me in a square mile radius. lol

O&H is not just my top EN it is my hallmark.

Sorry if I somehow began doing some dark and dirty deeds in desperation to save my marriage but believe me when I say, that is not my modus.

I'm not perfect but Manipulative and Cunning? No.

Do it for you, your marriage and your family. What we do to honor the marriage, we do even when we don't "feel" like honoring our spouses. Do it, anyway.

That is a very powerful line LA. It is precisely God and this notion that will fuel me for the coming months till December 31st.

I cannot thank you enough for your detailed response and interest in my thread and situation.

Your contribution has been a blessing to me and rest assured your words did find their way into my heart and soul.

Wow... a moving and incredibly valuable post, LA. I'm saving that one.

Well, being inspired by LA, I continued my plan A today.

Called WW to ask if she would like to join my son and I for lunch.

She agreed.

Met at her workplace with her favorite meal. We ate and then talked about...drum roll...finances and loans that she thought was unfair for her to pay.

I tried to change the subject and explained that maybe we should talk about less contentious things. She refused and insisted the topic be dealt with. In closing she confirmed that the divorce is still on the way.

So much for lunch date.

In honest confusion, I called a few hours later to ask "what was that all about?"

Saying:

I thought things were taking a turn for the better with your recent behaviour. Namely, speaking on good terms and seeking the interest of the kids. Moving out of your apartment near the OM and spending more time by your mom where the children are staying.

Her response:

My lawyer said you would make a move for the kids and that I needed to be home. It was nothing more than that.

So at least this confirms that she isn't out of the fog yet.

This is going to be a long eight months. lol

My next move:

I plan to talk about all of her "grievances" till she is satisfied. The catch, she then has to talk about non contentious things with me. General chit chat about work, life, love, etc...

Smart move? Or blunder?

Meet her need for conversation, but do not talk about D. Let her know that you WILL not talk about it. If that's what she wants to talk about, tell her to talk to her lawyer. After a few times of realizing that you will not engage in that conversation, she will stop pushing it.

As for her grievances, just let her spew everything out and just listen. Don't get defensive, just tell her you understand how she feels. In the end when she says that the D is still coming (I don't remember when you said that she actually filed), tell her you understand that she feels that way, but you are going to do everything you possibly can to save this M, and that you got you two into this mess and you are going to have to be the one to get you out of it. Tell her that hopefully you can save it for you, her and your child. That is all that you are thinking about right now. After seeing several months of this, she might start to soften.

Thanks Jim.

Tried that today. called and spoke at relative length (10 mins) about her job and my day.

Went pretty well.

Did ask if she was willing to discuss the grievances over dinner but she declined and said we could do it at her mother's house.

As faith would have it, I met a long time friend today. Walking on the road. She mentioned in our conversation that she met him also. Further to that, she mentioned meeting OM Candidate #2 at the same place and explained that he worked nearby and it was just a coincidence.

My interpretation.

He saw her and OM Candidate #2 and she figured he may have told me something. Decided to raise it in the conversation in an attempt to cover her tracks.

Either way, I may be putting too much into this but it makes me want to go into Magnum PI mode again to see if she is up to her old tricks.

She has been up late at night on the phone with someone. It wasn't WWWFF.

I don't think I can stomach a confirmed OM#2. Divorce would be our only recourse.

Met with WW at her mother's house yesterday as planned.

Discussion did not go very well.

Wanted it to be the last discourse on unpleasant issues (custody, financials, past hurts, etc...) but we could not come to closure on anything and had to defer to yet another day.

I really want us to get past the nasty stuff so our conversations can be less intense and confrontational.

Tried to highlight the benefits of us using "His Needs Her Needs" to get to a much better place for both the kids and the marriage. She just stared blankly into space.

In closing, she wanted me to just "Respect her decision". That of divorce.

I replied, Sure, "would you also respect mine" (That of working on the marriage)

Not a success but at least we will talk again and hopefully this time lay most of the issues to rest.

To add insult to injury, I got news today that my mother is in the hospital.

Heading there now. Hopefully things aren't as bad as they sound.

You don't get it. You don't talk about this stuff. You let her know that you WILL not discuss these matters with her. IF that is the path she chooses to go down, then her lawyer should contact your lawyer, but you WILL NOT engage in these kind of talks. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?!?

What you need to say when she talks about you respecting her decision is to say, "I will never go along with your decision because I do not want our child to have to pay for both of mistakes in this marriage, especially mine. I got our family into this mess and I am going to do everything I can from this point on to get us out because I want what is best for our child. I understand that you feel that things can never be repaired but I disagree. I have been going to counseling and talking to other people who have gone through the exact same thing, and they assure me that things can be repaired, but it just takes a very long time. Five years ago, I'm sure neither of us thought that we'd be in this situation and five year from now I'm sure we don't think we'll be happy together, but things change with time. I know I made a horrible mistake and truly hurt you, but I am going everything in my power to try and repair the damage in time."

No more divorce talk.