My husband's hunting session is in full swing again, this will continue through the end of January. I don't know why I get so upset because this has been the drill for 8 years, and every year we get into more arguments about it.<P>I get home at 5:00PM, when he hunts he doesn't get home until 7:30 - 8:00PM, then eats the dinner I made, showers and goes to bed shortly after. He gets up at 4:30AM for work. So we have little time to talk, maybe 1/2hour. When he was eating (and looking through a hunting magazine) I starting talking about a situation at work that I thought was funny, right in middle of my conversation he looks at me and says "see this fourwheeler, I really need this", now we have discussed this many times, we cannot afford a $6000.00 fourwheeler, I said "yes, it's beautiful, we can't get it", and continued with my conversation, then again he says "see this bow, it's only $450, I need a new one", I said "OK, maybe for Xmas", then I just gave up on my conversation and you know what, he didn't even notice. So then I said "all you care about is this hobby, you don't even make an attempt to talk to me" he said "what I was listening". So I got mad, said just said forget it. He said "this is my hobby, I love it and you know I go every other night and Saturdays and besides the weekly thing will only really affect you until the clock changes back, because then I'll be home by 6:00PM". I said "no, it's not just that, it's Saturdays too and then I have to hear about it for an hour when you get home, and you don't care about having dinner with me, talking to me, we have nothing to talk about". Then he asked if I was PMS or something and said "so what about dinner, we talk, and I'm boring, all we do during the week is usually stay home anyway and watch TV, he's not changing something he loves to do nothing with me". I said "you know what maybe I am boring, so I will get a hobby and I'll go the nights your not hunting so we'll never see eachother, maybe that will be better, since the time we spend together is basically meaningless time anyway". He said I was being spiteful and I should do something when he's not home to coordinate. He's missing my point. He said "you know you should be happy I'm not an alcoholic, don't go bars and you know I'm in the woods".<BR>He said "make sure you tell that quack doctor how your acting tonight, your starting an argument with me for no reason". <P>I said "what about Saturdays, you have to go in the morning and afternoons, this past Saturday he left at 5:00AM, came home at 11:30AM and then went back at 1:30PM and came home at 7:30PM". He said "no, he doesn't have to, but he likes to and besides we had no plans". I said what about this Saturday, you want to go apple picking, he said "no, I hate that, it's stupid, you can buy the apples in the store, he wanted to go hunting". I said, "you know what you do what you really love to do, I'll make plans with my family to do something, forget it". He then took his shower and when he got out he said "why don't we just get divorced, we have nothing in common and we're both unhappy, I love you but things are getting worse". I said "I don't know what to do". <P>I feel emotionally drained, and there was yelling in between but it's too long to write, we basically went to sleep and this morning was quite. We have had this argument so many times before and it gets me nowhere, if I want to stay with him, I should just accept this is way he is, he won't change this, I have to change.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 06, 1999).]

Let me ask you a question, Hum: <P>Was he always this much into hunting? (I was right, then, wasn't I?) Was he into it that much before you were married? If so, then it's not as if you didn't know. If not, then I suspect he's using "male bonding activities" to escape from the marital problems. <P>You can't go into a marriage thinking, "I'll change him." Forget it, it doesn't work. My H has always been messy, bad with money, not handy around the house, doesn't clean, etc. I knew this. I accept this. There are areas in which he's changed, but not because I nagged him about it.<P>Your H sounds a bit immature to me...he wants his toys and he wants them when he wants them. Yet I think you may be a bit immature too -- you want him to live up to some romantic fantasy that you've absorbed from romance novels and movies, and he can't. No man can -- yours perhaps less than some.<P>I'm sure that other people here will go in and dissect the transcript of your conversation for angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments -- and boy, this exchange is full of them -- on both sides.<P>Your H doesn't know how to have a discussion about things affecting your relationship. Mine doesn't either. Most men don't want to talk about relationships. Listen to any male comedian -- they all make jokes about that. <P>You too are standing in the middle of a room screaming, and he just doesn't hear you. You had an affair to MAKE him listen, but he doesn't seem to want to hear. You haven't told him, but on some level he knows -- and he's blocked it out. If he's MORE into hunting than usual, that's probably why.<P>PLEASE get yourself a copy of HOW ONE OF YOU CAN BRING BOTH OF YOU TOGETHER. I think that in your case, this book will be more beneficial than the Harley stuff. Harley relies heavily on POJA, and there's no "JA" in your relationship, just as there's none in mine. <P>Yet the "needs" stuff still works here. Clearly your H has very strong "recreational needs" -- needs you don't meet. Perhaps it's not that you don't want to, but because his hobby is so male-oriented that it can't include you. Asking your H to stay home to spend time with you when you have no plans isn't going to work.<P>It's interesting, though, to note how he words things (assuming your transcript is true to his tone, if not his exact words). It gives you clues to how his mind works. Like here:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I starting talking about a situation at work that I thought was funny, right in middle of my conversation he looks at me and says "see this fourwheeler, I really need this", now we have discussed this many times, we cannot afford a $6000.00 fourwheeler, I said "yes, it's beautiful, we can't get it", and continued with my conversation, then again he says "see this bow, it's only $450, I need a new one", I said "OK, maybe for Xmas", then I just gave up on my conversation<BR> and you know what, he didn't even notice. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now here, you're both being disrespectful. You're assuming that he'll find your work story funny too. He doesn't. Work stories are often "you hadda be there." He tunes you out (that male "selective deafness" -- my H has it too). Don't forget, you've also told him about being attracted to men at work, so he CERTAINLY doesn't want to hear about stuff at your place of employment. <P>He asks/tells you to look at that 4-wheeler. He didn't just show up with it, he asked you about it. Your answer, just as unthinking as any of his: "Yes, it's beautiful, we can't afford it." Pretty dismissive, don't you think? You didn't even look, I'll bet. How about opening the discussion to what kind of 4-wheeler you CAN afford, if he wants one. Maybe a Pathfinder instead of a Jeep, something like that. Or maybe talk about a plan to save for it.<P>As for the bow, well, why not for Xmas?<P>Then you go into one of those "You don't care about me!" speeches. I'm not putting you down, Hum, I feel the same way much of the time. But believe me, talk like this is like Greek to most men. They just don't get it. You might as well be speaking Chinese to him. Besides which, you're ascribing feelings to him, and as far as he's concerned, you're just being nuts -- hence the PMS remarks (and BTW, gentlemen, a woman can be hurting and emotional and not be PMS).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>he said "what I was listening". So I got mad, said just said forget it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He probably thinks he was. Sulking accomplishes nothing, and that's what you did. Now, do what I say, not what I do (I hold it all in, I don't even do what you did ), but a way to deal with this might be, "I'd feel more as if you were listening it if you'd put down the magazine when we're having a conversation."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"this is my hobby, I love it and you know I go every other night and Saturdays and besides the weekly thing will only really affect you until the clock changes back, because then I'll be home by 6:00PM".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He's bewildered. He's been hunting for 8 years and NOW you're griping about it? This makes no sense to him. And magically, time will take care of the problem, because soon the clocks will be set back. He doesn't see the problem here.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>no, it's not just that, it's Saturdays too and then I have to hear about it for an hour when you get home, and you don't care about having dinner with me, talking to me,<BR>we have nothing to talk about".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yikes! "I have to hear about it..." Disrespectful. "You don't care..." Angry AND disrespectful. You don't know what he feels...all you know is how you perceive it. As for "We have nothing to talk about, well, is that true? And if so, why? Do you have NOTHING AT ALL in common? Then answer my earlier question: How did you two get together? What attracted you to each other?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"so what about dinner, we talk, and I'm boring, all we do during the week is usually stay home anyway and watch TV, he's not changing something he loves to do nothing with me". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah, a clue. HE WANTS TO "DO THINGS"!!! Maybe you want to cuddle in front of the fire; he sees that as a "waste of time." He's a busy kinda guy. I understand that. I just HATE to sit and watch TV. I need to be doing something. So I iron, or fold laundry, or work on counted cross stitch, or take the laptop downstairs and sit with him and write.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I said "you know what maybe I am boring, so I will get a hobby and I'll go the<BR> nights your not hunting so we'll never see eachother, maybe that will be better, since<BR> the time we spend together is basically meaningless time anyway". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sulking. NOT productive. "I'm going to take my dollies and dishes and go home." But you're on to something here. If you're going to stay in this marriage, his devotion to hunting (and I wonder about that kind of devotion to killing helpless animals, but that's beyond this discussion) is something you have to live with. So think of it as an opportunity, an opportunity to do something for you. Take a dance class. Learn to figure skate. Take up yoga. Learn to paint still lifes. Learn calligraphy, or origami, or any of a number of things. Find something YOU love. <P>I'm willing to bet that when you have something that makes you feel good about yourself, you'll be a better person to be with than you are now, nagging and griping and sulking. I am not putting you down, just analyzing the interaction based on what you've posted.<P>Let's say that you take up painting, and find you have a knack for it. You come home all excited. You did something really good today. You got the blush on those apples just right. You come home, flush with excitement, and tell him about it. He, of course, doesn't react, he's reading FIELD AND STREAM. But even if he's not listening, he can hear your voice and see the spring in your step and the sparkle in your eye. That he doesn't react doesn't make one bit of difference. YOU know that you've tapped something within yourself. <P>You keep it up. And at some point, he WILL notice. <P>My H doesn't read my writing. I can understand him not wanting to read "light romantic historical fiction", but he doesn't even read my movie reviews. So what? He takes pride in the fact that I do it, and other people DO read.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"you know you should be happy I'm not an alcoholic, don't go bars and you know I'm in the woods".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This tells you something about him. From his viewpoint (probably learned from his father), being a husband is about being faithful, bringing home the bacon, and being responsible. That's it. HE thinks he's a great husband. HE thinks that's all he needs to do.<P>Now, your last paragraph is interesting. You DO suggest something to do...something you like. He thinks it's stupid: Why pick apples when you can buy them at the store? OK, now we know more about him. Activities are for a PURPOSE. How about taking up something like skeet shooting? Maybe he can teach YOU how to shoot? Yeah, I wouldn't want to either, but you're married to a hunter, after all.<P>You are right in your last sentence. You DO have to accept him the way he is. But you're also right that YOU have to change. You have to change the way you interact with him. You are both behaving according to established patterns. Change YOUR half and his half will have to change. That's the premise of the Page book.<P>

Hi Hummingbird,<BR> Have you read DivorceBusting by Michele Weiner-Davis? You might find some solutions in there. Obviously telling him and arguing with him doesn't work. There is a chapter in there where the H is much like yours, but golfs ALl the time (same frustrations) . Anyway, the wife tries telling him in a nice happy way to go ahead and be out because she has plans...this continues(you have to read it and see how it was done)...and soon the H starts coming home more and more. I know it sounds like playing games but it's changing YOUR behavior so that the other person changes.It might be worth looking into since what you have been doing is not working........Lu

Dazed,<P>I don't understand that last part... why is it that Hum has to ACCEPT him the way he is and CHANGE HERSELF too? He is being extremely selfish here and she has to change? If he wants a life like that, he should just get a dog. A marriage requires time spent together (15 hours a week?) and he's not willing to give her 15 minutes. I think its totally unfair to say that she should just accept him the way he is because he enjoyed hunting before the marriage. Of course he could do all that before- he didn't have a wife to come home to. Now, he is married and decisions should be made taking BOTH partners into consideration- he's only thinking of himself.<P>I didn't mean to go off on a tangent on you, I was just thinking about how lonely it must be for Hum to not be able to enjoy her own husband. It just doesn't seem right.<P> tamis

First off...at least you're concerning yourself with issues regarding your husband and not the OM! I think that's a step in the right direction...I hope.<P>I know these fights so well...although my husband doesn't hunt...he's a computer and sports addict. He gets on the computer as soon as he gets home from work to place bets online and then watches the games on TV only to go back on the computer to see how much money he lost/won. I get very frustrated because I feel if I never went out of my way to talk to him he could go the whole night without talking to me. He too has pushed me to get a hobby to keep myself occupied. I have no problem doing that, but sometimes I just want to have a companion and do something together.<P>I don't think you should ask your husband to give up his hobby (you probably already know that), but I think it would be nice if maybe he cut it down to every other weekend or something. Maybe you could work out a compromise...I don't know. Maybe you could discuss doing something together on those days when he's not hunting. <P>I too would ask my husband to do things such as apple picking...he's sooooooo not into that and he would usually b@tch and complain, but end up doing it anyway. But, then it's no fun because you know he doesn't want to be there. So instead (since my husband is a big golfer) we would go to the golf range and do something he enjoys and maybe swing by to pick apples afterwards. Do you and your husband share any interests that you would enjoy doing together? It sounds like he likes the outdoors...maybe you could plan an outing to the Delaware Water Gap...rent a canoe or something...it's beautiful there this time of year.<P>My husband was also never interested in any stories I had about work...it always seemed like it went in one ear and out the other. Maybe you can try another approach to getting your husband to listen to you. Instead of yelling and blowing off what he has to say...let him know that it hurts you that he doesn't seem interested in your life. I bet when you guys were first dating you would listen to whatever each other had to say...you probably found his hobby intersting. (I don't know, I could be wrong).<P>I don't know if this is helping you any...but I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's give and take. I really think that you should be doing more things together however. Let him have his hobbies...ask him if he can cut it down a little to spend some quality time with you...discuss something you could do together.

Hi Dazed,<P>Your insight works wonders on me, I know I see things tunnel vision at times and even the counselor said I have this black and white way of dealing with things. Most things are grey. I always think my way is right, and I know I can be immature, I'm trying to change the way I communicate, it's not easy. <P>Yes, he always hunted but it has escalated alot over the 8 years. If you ask him why, he has his reasons. He say it's because things are settling down around the house, we're practically done with everything we've wanted to do and now he can finally enjoy his hobby. Even now he says he doesn't go as much as he'd like. Example a tree fell in our backyard because of the storm, so he had to spend a few days cleaning it up, so he couldn't go hunting. He will even say "I always make sure all the chores are done around the house before I go hunting, I never neglect anything". I feel it's like a kid when his mother says "do your chores first then you can go play". BTW, my affair started during hunting season, not surprised I bet. Yes, he wants his things when he wants me and believe me he always get what he wants, the pattern is I give him a hard time because of the money but then I feel bad, will surpise him with it, or just tell him to get it. Yes, he can get the bow for Xmas but I know he will nag me until he'll get it now, because he can't wait. The fourwheeler has been discussed for awhile now, he wants a new one, they are all around that price range say $5000 - 6000. He doesn't want a used one because they're usually beat up, he says hard to find. I am not wiping out our savings for a fourwheeler, of course, he would in an instant, or take out a loan, he'd have so far in debt if it wasn't for me, he wants everything but yet wants to retire at 55, you have to save for that and then what about children, I know that's a separate issue but I think he's not even in that mindset, it's always me, me, me. My parents have even said he's never satisfied, he's like a big kid, always wanting new and better toys.<P>About us having a discussion, yes I agree he is a major conflict avoider and I didn't mention it above but this conversation took place throughout the entire house, going from room to room, I felt like I was chasing him to talk to me. Who is the author of that book? I will pick it up this weekend. <P>He has never been really romantic, but he can be alittle if he trys. He has surprised me. And he does give me a hug everymorning before he leaves for work and a kiss, even today he did that. The apple picking thing was more of a time together thing for me and yes romantic in my eyes. He looks at it as the apples are cheaper in the store, why bother.<P>The work story your probably right but I really feel he would acted this way regardless of what I talking about, he's done that before with family issues, etc. He tunes me out, I hate that.<P>I don't know Dazed I don't think at times we have anything in common. He has this overwhelming recreational need, and I can't be included in it, I hate hunting, I can't stand when he brings those poor deer home and I won't eat the meat, I've tried it and don't like it. Yes, he has always done it but I never liked it. All his hunting buddies wives feel like me, we just try to accept the stuffed deer in our homes. <P>We both have the same taste in decorating, furnishings, he is really funny, he is a hardworker, I know he's never cheat on me, cute, ambitious, sexually things were really great (the best we had in our relationship at one time).<P>Maybe your right I need to find something I love, maybe I'm jealous I don't have anything. He's said to me "you need a kid, that'll keep you busy".<P>Your right Dazed, he thinks he's the best husband in the world, he said to me last night "you keep going to that doctor because your not happy with yourself and your taking it out on me."<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 06, 1999).]

Hummingbird,<BR>I have little to add to what Dazed said. I agree with it entirely.<P>Me, being the Queen of Conflict Avoidance, and generally a Miss Merry Sunshine wife, never really had these conversations, but I had the feelings and if I would have said the same things to my H, he would have given me much the same answers.<P>Dazed is so right when she boils it down he is big into recreation, and he thinks he is a good H.<P>Now one could argue that he is over the top with his hobby and that he is insensitive.<P>However, your real problem might be your misinterpretation of his feelings and your general communication patterns.<P>My H has sports to span the year. To his credit, he has always tried to involve me if I am willing and the girls as soon as they are old enough. To him recreational pursuits are the essence of life and I budget accordingly. He makes do when possible and I cut back in other areas so we can afford the best for him when we can. The only real down time is late fall/early winter before ski season starts...and guess when he had his affair. It ended with the first heavy snow fall, in part he recalls, because he didn't want to take ski time away from the girls.<P>I'm convinced his recreation is seperate than any feelings he has for me, other he wishes I had the passion for this stuff that he has. He would like me to live for it, too. <P>Kind of funny, about a month after discovery and end of affair (he was already walking away) I got a pair of ski boots. I didn't ski much for several years due to being pregnant and then having a small child that couldn't ski. So it was more timing than anything...not significant to me. Months after when we were talking about how we were doing and he said things really changed when I got my ski boots. Huh? I would have never linked that, but to him, I guess it was important.<P>The other significant communication change (other than everything I learned from many books and being here) was one night all of a sudden H said "Stop telling me how I feel!" Since we rarely even raise our voice, I paused, realized I was doing the very thing I was reading not to do, and said "Sorry, I will never do that again. If you ever catch me trying, please tell me and I will stop immediately."<P>Wow, was my H impressed. I don't think he has ever caught me verbalizing, but I have caught myself thinking like that and even stop myself. It has made a huge difference.<P>Hummingbird, no one is asking you to stuff your feelings, but by changing your communications and sifting through your expectations, you can initiate some real growth in yourself and hopefully your marriage. How about spending these lonely evenings reading Dazed's book and others...or listening to tapes. I agree that like it or not it is going to be you who make the first changes and lead the way by example. No relationship is always easy, but everything you learn will benefit you in life.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13<p>[This message has been edited by Faith Hope Love (edited October 06, 1999).]

tamis:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't understand that last part... why is it that Hum has to ACCEPT him the way he is and CHANGE HERSELF too? He is being extremely selfish here and she has to <BR>change? If he wants a life like that, he should just get a dog. A marriage requires time spent together (15 hours a week?) and he's not willing to give her 15 minutes. I think its totally unfair to say that she should just accept him the way he is because he enjoyed hunting before the marriage. Of course he could do all that before- he didn't<BR> have a wife to come home to. Now, he is married and decisions should be made taking<BR> BOTH partners into consideration- he's only thinking of himself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let me address these points one by one:<P>1) Why should she have to change? Because she's the only person she CAN change. How is she going to change his behavior? Give him orders? Sulk? Has this ever worked for anyone? Yes, perhaps you can browbeat a spouse into line, but at some point he/she will rebel. It's inevitable.<P>Hum's relationship with her H goes two ways. He acts one way, she reacts accordingly. She acts one way, he reacts accordingly. If she changes her half of the equation, his reaction must by definition change, because he's responding to a certain set of stimuli. If the stimuli change, the reaction will change.<P>Does that clarify my point?<P>2) Yes, Hum's H is being extemely selfish. But there we are. Again, she can't just order him to stop. My H is an insensitive lunkhead. I can't order him to stop. All I can do, and all she can do, is change the way she deals with it. If her half changes, his half may change as well. The other option is separation/divorce. I've chosen to stay. So far she has too.<P>3) Yes, a marriage requires time spent together. I doubt that Hum and her H are spending 15 hours a week together. But perhaps they are. I don't spend much time with my H during the week either -- 15 minutes in the AM, maybe 2 hours at night. We do spend a fair amount of time on weekends together. Sometimes conflicting work schedules make it impossible. That's not Hum's situation. But I still think that at least SOME of Hum's H's devotion to hunting is his way of "hiding" from the problems in the marriage.<P>Yes, in a marriage, decisions should be made together. But what can Hum do to make this happen? Throwing Harley books at him won't do it -- he won't read them. Sulking doesn't work. Angry outbursts won't work. We can spout all we want to about what he SHOULD do, but Hum has limited, if any, power to MAKE these things happen. <P>So she has three choices. <P>1) Live with it, and make a life for herself outside the marriage (friends, family, hobbies, but NOT other men).<P>2) Separate and/or divorce<P>3) Change her own behavior, and see if he changes his in response.<P>Holding a gun to his head and saying "RELATE TO ME, DAMMIT!!" isn't going to work.

Tamis,<BR>What is fair and right to one person may be completely unfair to another. Just because it should be doesn't mean that it is.<P>We can not control another person...we can manage ourselves.<P>We are just pointing out that the way she can best achieve the goals for her relationship, which are really to love and be loved and especially to FEEL it, will best be accomplished by taking some action herself at this point.<P>When one person positively impacts a relationship, the relationship will most likely start moving in the right direction and H will be more willing to make changes as well.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

The book I mentioned (HOW ONE OF YOU CAN BRING BOTH OF YOU TOGETHER can be found here:<P> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767900421/qid=939217322/sr=1-1/002-6424212-4030831" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767900421/qid=939217322/sr=1-1/002-6424212-4030831</A> <P>This is not to throw away the Harley stuff, but to work in conjunction with it. Much of the Harley stuff assumes and equal willingness of both partners to do the work. This book assumes that one partner is clueless or unwilling.<P>I didn't write it, folks, I just try to use it. My therapist bought her own copy, marked it up like crazy, now uses it in her couples sessions, and recommends it to her clients.<P>FLH is right about communication patterns. Hum, go back and read my thread "Please tell me this isn't what it looks like" and then "Do betrayers always behave differently. Read FLH's reply to me about what HIS side may be. I've printed her response out to show my therapist this evening. I think she may be right on the mark here.<P>Hum, you are so used to this interaction, you can't even see straight. It's obvious even from what you write, which is filtered through your perceptions, that he is seeing the situation very differently from the way you do. But all you have to work with is YOU.

Holly: Yes, in the beginning I tried to be interested in his hobby, that didn't last long since I love animals and it's just hard. And yes, he used to listen to me and would go apple picking and do romantic things with me, but I guess that was the courting phase. That hasn't happened in while. Unfortunately, I am not an outside girl, but I never have been and he knew this before he married me, however, he throws that in my face during arguments. Holly, I too feel that I want a companion not just a hobby to fill the void. I wish I could think of something we would both truly enjoy, but I can't. About not thinking of OM, it's hard, I was thinking last night, the OM would talk to me and we would have so many things to do together, he would go applepicking and love it, he would be a true companion.<P>Tamis: Yes, I feel neglected, and I feel lonely. I resent the fact that I have to change at times, because he won't. Last night I came home, made dinner, took the dog for a walk and read a book before he came home. Sometimes I think I'd be better off alone, my life is more peaceful and he doesn't appreciate me. If I do get a hobby, do I have to schedule it on nights his hunting, is that fair? Or should I just see what happens and if the hobby is on the days he's home, well then we just won't see eachother, he doesn't seem concerned about it.<P>If I tell him he's selfish, first he get very angry and insists he's not, and then says that I'm an overly sensitive and emotional person.

dazed,<P>I know I did not type for her to say "relate to me dammit" or for her to throw any books at him. I said that it is not fair that he is the one neglecting her marriage by ignoring her and devoting his entire life outside of work to a hobby. Meanwhile, people are advising her to find something else to do besides be alone. If you are a wife, and you want to spend time with your husband, I don't think you should have to say "well, he prefers hunting so I will go needlepoint". People deserve spouses who will share their lives, if that's what they want.

Hum--<BR>I knew that you would be thinking that the OM would LOVE to go apple picking!! I think the same thing when my husband doesn't want to do things with me...I always think to myself, the OM would love to do that with me...but I'm not so sure it's true. Like you said your husband used to go apple picking and do romantic things...that was just the courting stage. That's what stage you were at with the OM!<P>Besides...we have to stop that thinking!<P>BTW...I'm feeling REALLY good today. I actually prayed last night to have no feelings (good or bad) towards the OM! I actually laughed the whole way to work listening to Howard Stern on the radio!<P>The only thing is that I'm thinking about leaving the OM a voice mail message saying that I was sorry for being such a b@tch...I don't want him to hate me. Not a good idea...huh!

Hi Tamis,<P> Just curious , what would you advise her to do? Of course she deserves someone who wants to spend time with her etc....that's not happening .....I was advising her to maybe find another solution to get to that objective. It would be wonderful if one could tell the other person I need this and they would do it.....so do you think she should give up on the marriage? Lu

Holly,<P>Don't call the OM. I know it's hard, I think it's just the letting go. The OM has been distant towards me, (I know it's only been 1 day!) But I feel the need to fire off another email. I'm trying to set a date in my mind, like October 4th was the last communication with him (besides the Goodmornings and Goodnights) and try to set a goal of a month, then after hopefully set another month, baby steps. What I have to do, even write a email to him here, not contact him. <P>It's not even so much the OM, but other men out there in general. I've been thinking God, your only 30, been married 8 years (our anniversary is October 12th) how in the world are you going make another 30-40 years with this man. I've also found myself looking at other men too, I would never have an affair again, but just looking at what's out there in the single field.<P>BTW, the book I've been reading "too good to leave, too bad to stay", has so far been suggesting I leave, I'm only alittle more than half through but it's depressing.<P>If you and your spouse are recreationally not compatible and he is not willing to change, I should assume my marriage is over. I can say I still love him, but then I wonder why I still love him, just because he's overall a good person, even with all his faults, he still has a good heart, is faithful and is a good provider. Maybe for some women that would be enough. Or maybe I'm just hanging on the ghost of our love, and I we should split up.<p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 06, 1999).]

tamis, we don't disagree on this one, hard as it may be for you to believe. You are absolutely right. It's NOT fair that he's ignoring her. It's NOT fair that he spends all his time outside of work hunting. She SHOULDN'T have to say "well, he prefers hunting so I will go needlepoint". She DOES deserve a spouse who will share her life.<P>She doesnt have that spouse. She has another one. You can rail all you want about what SHOULD be, but Hum and all the rest of us have to deal with what IS.<P>What would YOU have her do? I haven't heard any suggestions from you. If you have any good ideas on how to MAKE a spouse be more of what you want, please speak up! I'd like to know too. I want a spouse who'll understand why I think an exclusionary friendship with another woman who's clearly looking for a man of her own and doesn't care if he's married is not appropriate. I want a spouse who'll tell me how he feels and not hold everything in. I want a spouse who'll fix things for me every now and then.<P>I don't have one. I have to deal with the one I have. And so do you. And so does Hum.

Not to overwhelm you with books, but a book I loved was The Heart of Commitment by Scott Stanley...it may be in the Religious section of a bookstore, but it may be in the Relationship section.<P>You can look it up at amazon...not as good as putting links in as Dazed. It basically says all commitments involve giving some things up, but that people who live by their commitments will generally live happier more fulfilling lives then people that bail.<P>At the very least it is thought provoking. It kind of depends on your basic values and beliefs about the institution of marriage. To me leaving was never an option,but no one can impose their personal beliefs on you, so it is your choice.<P>And Dazed, I'm getting your book.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I do believe in the institional of marriage and committment but I want a true companion and I want to be happy. Of course, right now I'm all screwed up. I know I do care about him and do love him, but maybe not the "right" love.<P>We are constantly growing as individuals and if the love is "right" it will flourish, <BR>if not it will die. Is that not right? When you marry young, aren't mistakes more likely to happen? I don't know, but I feel this is part of my problem.<P>If the love is "right" in the beginning and the foundation was laid "right" in the first place it will last a lifetime, I don't know mine ever was. It had huge gaps in the beginning.<P>I'm so afraid of waking up when I'm 80 and regreting not doing things, I don't want that. I'm I going to spend my whole life giving, feeling resentful and bitter?<p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 06, 1999).]

Your H is in a position I was in sorta, three years ago. He is not truly aware, he is denying or is blind to the fact that you are so incredibly unhappy in your marriage.<BR>My H tried to let me know the things that bothered him, but I either did not give his concerns the significance they deserved or denied that I could do anything about it. "He would just have to accept me as I was. He knew what I liked and did not like when we got married, so just live with it, right."<BR>It was not until he seriously threw the big "D" word in my face that I realized how unhappy he was. (His affair had been going on for about a year at that time). When I realized the intensity of his unhappiness was when I began to work on myself an my behaviors.<BR>I am not saying you need to threaten him with divorce or even tell him about your affair, but something needs to be done to get his attention. Have you tried to write him a "feelings story?" Not exactly a letter, but a story in which you communicate your needs and feelings in "pictures".<P>Let me think... Should relate to an activity he understands...<BR>Deer hunting...<BR> <BR> Once there was a man who loved to go hunting. It was his passion. He not only enjoyed the actual act of finding his target and bringing in the kill, but also the comraderie he found with his fellow hunters and the beauty of nature as he walked through the woods. He felt needed by his pals for advise and was proud when his knowledge helped to make the experience more fulfilling for all those with him. He felt a sense of belonging and peace as he quietly made his way through the woods. If it were possible he would spend every waking minute in the woods.<P>One week-end he had big plans to join several other men to go deer hunting. He packed all his gear, some food and plenty of ammunition. He headed out to the meeting place in good spirits, hopeful that the adventure would be successful. As he was driving a huge storm rolled in. He made it to the country store where he was to meet his friends, but they were not there. He called the home of one pal and learned that a bridge had washed out and that they would not be able to join him. He would have to experience this adventure alone. That was ok, he had been alone before.<P>When the rain let up, the hunter climbed back into his car to head deeper into the woods. At one spot there was a creek running across the road. He was sure he could make it across, so he floored the pedal and started across. Bad decision. He barely had time to crawl out the window before his car, with all his gear was washed down the creek. He managed to swim to the far shore and pull himself out on the bank.<P>There he was, alone out in the middle of nowhere with nothing but the clothes on his back. And to make matters worse the rain started falling even harder. He was suddenly filled with a fear so intense he thought he would not survive the feeling, forget the circumstances of his environment!<BR>The woods, once his friend, offered little peace. He was alone, defenseless, and no one could hear his cries for help. He missed his pals and the companionship they could provide. He need for his gear for survival was obvious, yet the gear was not there. <P>Suddenly, across the raging creek, the hunter saw a lone figure walking through the woods toward the bank of the creek where his car had lodged between the trees. The hunter hollers and screams for attention, but the figure does not acknowledge his presence and keeps on walking until he reaches the car. The hunter watches as his possible saviour reaches in the open window of the car and removes the backpack, gun and amunition. Then, with his a long thick branch the stranger pushes the rear end of the car so it is swept back in the current to continue it's journey down the raging river. In horror the hunter watches as his last chance for help walks away with out even acknowledging his needs.<P>Hummingbird... In this story, you are the hunter. The storm represents your unhappiness ( and affair) in the marriage and the power and force of distruction this unhappiness could cause if unleashed. The gear and companions represent your emotional needs. I guess you recognize the stranger as your H. Don't know if this story really captures and shows much of what is going on with you guys, but maybe from it you can get an idea of a way in which you could try to communicate with your H. I got this idea and advise on how to communicate this way from a book, but cannot remember the name of it! Sorry. I used this technique a couple of times and if H didn't get the point I was trying to make with the stories, at least I had tried and relieved some of the tensions I was feeling.<BR>If you like the story, feel free to add, delete or change any of it to better suit your needs. I really hope it helps a little.<P>Beth<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Pilot's wife (edited October 06, 1999).]

Hum--<BR>I just re-read the "closure" letter I wrote the OM and decided that I have no need to apologize for the things I said.<P>Yeah, some of the things I said were out of line and I probably could have said them about myself...but what good is apologizing going to do...only make me look like more of a psycho.<P>My biggest problem is that I can't stand the fact that he probably HATES me now. I hate having that on my conscious...but what difference does it make, it's not like he's in my life anyway...I'll never hear from him or see him again.<P>I also hate the fact that I've been analyzing and dwelling on this affair for soooo long and he could care less. I hate that it meant more to me then him...I hate that he decided to stay with his wife after all the things he said to me and it was so easy for him. Like that magical switch that we wish we had. I wish I had NO feelings and didn't care!<P>I know what you mean about not wanting to have regrets when your 80...it scares the cr@p out of me too. Give your marriage some more time, allow yourself to fully get over this withdrawl. (I think we should change the name of withdrawl to torture or something more fitting). Then, really be honest with your husband about your needs...don't let him easily walk away without making any changes...don't take the easy way out. If he's not willing to make ANY changes then you have to start thinking about your happiness. I don't think you should have to be miserable for the rest of your life. However, I think it would help to make some changes yourself. (I'm going to try this too). Try giving more to him and see what you get in return.<P>There's a new movie out with Bruce Willis about a couple that have been married for 15 years. It's all about how marriage can survive 15 years of marriage. I know it's just a movie...but maybe it could give some of us "questioners" some insight. I cant' remember the name of the movie right now.