No, you are married. Are you legally separated or divorced? If I told my wife I we are separated, and then screwed somebody tomorrow, would that be okay? You want her to live with you, but she's separated BECAUSE she is having an affair.

Beautifully put Jim. Hadn't thought about it like that.

Wish someone would explain that concept to my WW. She is of the opinion that being "separated" makes it fine to go screwing around.

Nevermind the office MSN, I did one better. Installed a DVR in her car. Go me!

The first days recordings are in and they are a doozie.

The bad stuff

a) Confirmation that my wife is having unprotected sex with the OM

b) My WW's Wayward Female Friend (WWWFF) is heard making out in the car with another male friend of mine. (These guys just can't get enough of other people's wives, I sure know how to pick 'em!)

c) Wife professes that she loves OM and is addicted to him.

d) Wife professes that she only remains in town to see OM. (As opposed to staying by her mother near kids)

e) Wife says she has been spending money on OM

f) Wife contemplating sleeping with another one of my male friends that came unto her recently.

The good stuff

a) WWWFF says she wants to return home to her husband. (Note, the statement was made before the "make out" sound effects so your mileage may vary)

b) Wife says things aren't so good between her and OM since exposure. Now they only see each other for sex but she wants more than that. She is worried he has chosen the OMW over her.(For some reason, this does not comfort me much)

c) Wife says she is going to stop spending money on OM. That she wants his sex for free. (Again, I am not comforted)

d) Wife says she is going to stop having sex with OM since things have gotten worse. (This, I can deal with though I doubt it will be a reality anytime soon given the above bad points)

e) WWWFF says if she returns home to her husband that they have to stop liming together. (Hip hip!!!! Hurrah!) Need to get her hubby a copy of HNHN

Now, this DVR has given me a powerful insight into my WW. I actually heard her views on many things without the veil of lies. Truth and raw truth. She sounded so toxic. Amazing to hear the change when she speaks to my son, my old wife is back again. Jekyll and Hyde.

Funny thing is, it did not hurt. I could handle the truth.

Seems time has healed many of my emotional wounds.

Questions to everyone.

Do I:

A) Expose WWWFF's affair to her hubby and watch the flames ignite?

B) Confront WW in an open manner; saying I know for a fact about sex in her affair (she never confessed to having sex) and that while deeply hurt by it I am still willing to work on the marriage?

C) Change gears? Switch from my current Plan A which has her using the family car as a party/sex mobile and cake eating on the fence to Plan B? Enhanced with a Dobson ToughLove Letter.

D) Go for the jugular and try to get the kids through the courts, filing for Divorce if need be.

E) All of the above?

Two more things:

As mentioned before, My WW's OM hangs around a bunch of guys at our office. Her new "circle of friends" as it were. One of whom is now coming unto her. I guess he sees an opportunity here as the OM is busy sorting out the fall out from my exposure of the affair to his own wife.

Most of them tried to woo her back in the day when she was vulnerable from my affair. To see him trying it again now says that she is vulnerable again. This should be my opportunity, not his.

I am thinking to be a bit proactive in getting this particular group of people away from our office. Calling the police or whatever. Anything to lessen the onslaught against her. She seems to think she can get away with this one because he is going away in a few months. Less of a mess to deal with should it not work out.

Advice? Should I move forward on this plan against these players? I think it is obvious that keeping them around for the past few months did not help my situation at all, nor their temperament towards my wife. Before I kept them around for fear that they would revolt and make even more concerted attempts to have sex with her.

The other thing is a small success

My print out of the phone log did prompt her to change her cell phone number.

Of course she did not share the new number with me but at least that means my Former OW cannot send any incognito messages to do more damage since she won't have the number either! Hurrah for small victories.

Will be able to confirm if this is the case tomorrow at the phone company.

Becoming a regular PI and it is saving me from thinking about the darker emotional issues.

While I find your wifes behaviors unhealthy and self destructive... you have opened this box and your wife is free to live as she chooses right now since she has separated from you due to your affairs and failure to live up to your vows. Your attempt at exposure right now will most likely be met with disdain since your actions were the cause of your wife leaving in the first place.
There seems to be a HUGE issue with maturity in your M. I would stop focusing on your wife and turn all of your attention on yourself... and figure out what is lacking in your personal make-up that would allow you to act the way that you have. Your wife can do the same...but frankly that is her call. While I do not feel that you are being intentionally dishonest... I think the picture we would get from your wife would be a drastically different one. And as far as you recording someone that you no longer live with and are separated from...and if you are no living together, YOU ARE SEPARATED... knock it off before you find yourself locked up and looking pretty ridiculous in court.

Good luck on working on you.

MEDC

MEDC will state that if you cheated first your W is justified to cheat on you from that point out with impunity. He is a bitter BS. Her continued cheating will only hurt a currently fragile M.

I would hold off involving the police, but I would try to expose and preempt her from having another affair and getting attached to another OM. What do her parents think about her bouncing around between men. Of course you will need to face then and come clean, but two wrongs don't make a right, and you are owning your mistakes. Continue to put pressure on the affairs and confront you other male friend and expose to his family, so you might scare him away from doing anything with your WW.

Thanks Jim,

Her mom is a waste of time, she would rather not get involved in the nitty gritty. I've tried talking to her without success and doubt I would have any in the future.

Her dad is silent. Like a rock silent. He does not comment on anything. Like a stranger in a corner of the living room.

I've confronted this very same male friend before when he tried to make moves on my wife in the past. He promised to back off then, but here he is at it again.

Don't know his family and he seems to be from a "rough" background.

Slim pickings.

What about my other questions above? The A,B,C,D,E ones?

Really looking for some feedback on those.

I would consider exposing WW's WF to her BH. Even if it has nothing to do with your situation, he has a right to know. I would be extremely delicate about it though and try and get him on your side.

I would also let your WW know that you know the A is physical, you understand why it happened, and you are ready for both of you to put this behind you and reconcile.

That OM #2 is not your friend. I would target exposure on his end that would get him to leave your WW alone. Anyone you can expose to that would put pressure on him to back off.

OG,
Here is the bottom line if you really want to save your M. You need to spend your energy on making yourself a better man, husband and father. Any woman, including a fogged out, alien, deceitful WW will notice when you become a truly good father and husband. They may not take any action as they observe your actions and try to figure out if the change is genuine or a manipulative act. So don't expect any results in terms of changes in your WW behavior. Give her some space to ee the new you without any pressure and some space to gather a head of steam as she starts heading in your direction. You are wasting energy that could be devoted to achieving results in yourself when you focus o what she is doing. She is under the control of an alien and trying to understand her is like computing pi to the last digit...it doesn't provide any benefits beyond those achived in the first two minutes. Save understanding your WW until you are both agreeing to recover. Please.

Thanks for the advice as always.

Jim, I tried calling my WWWFF Hubby today. I know where he works. Unfortunately he already left the office.

Will call again tomorrow. Will not just drop the bomb but rather try and befriend him first and see where his mind is at.

Alternatively, maybe I can just drop off an anonymous package. That way I won't come into direct fire from the nuclear holocaust that may proceed.

Would love to expose OM#2 but like I mentioned before. Having seen the great effects it had on OM#1.

Problem is, I have no idea who to expose too. This guy is pretty wayward and from a rough family. I'd likely be put under the knife by them as opposed to gathering any pressure for the pending affair.

Will poke around a bit but it is DANGEROUS territory.

GameFace.

I understand where you are coming from and though I may not bring news here of my efforts to be a great dad and husband, you can believe that I am not lapsing on that front.

The battle is being fought on all sides.

For example, this weekended I picked up my kid, took him to the new apartment and we spent the entire time together. From Saturday morning to Sunday night. Real quality time.

He absolutely loved it and wants to come live with me.

Also, my WW wants nothing to do with me but I still look very opportunity to meet any need she may express (I call it Door Mat Plan A syndrome)

Example. On my way to meet my kid, she called and asked if I could bring some speakers. I stopped off and called in a favour at a friend's computer shop to pick up a pair and delivered it to her. She was impressed.

Trying to eat right (lost a ton of weight) and focus also on business and other things (got a land deal going through right now) to make sure I am a success story.

Did I mention acquiring a new apartment?

I am not just running around chasing after OM#1 and 2. lol

My efforts are spread across all fronts!

Hope that helps clear the air.

Please continue to give me advice and comment on my actions thus far.

You guys are a great help and through God's grace, we will get through this!

Questions to everyone.

Okay, let's give some opinions. What you do with them is up to you.

Do I:

A) Expose WWWFF's affair to her hubby and watch the flames ignite?

Will it help your situation or just make you "feel better?"


B) Confront WW in an open manner; saying I know for a fact about sex in her affair (she never confessed to having sex) and that while deeply hurt by it I am still willing to work on the marriage?

If you want to also reveal how you came by the information. Otherwise keep your mouth shut and file it under "information obtained to help me figure out what's going on in her mind."


C) Change gears? Switch from my current Plan A which has her using the family car as a party/sex mobile and cake eating on the fence to Plan B? Enhanced with a Dobson ToughLove Letter.

Sure, go ahead and be seen as manipulating and vindictive. "Right or wrong" doesn't "compute" here. Her PERCEPTION is what's important and your proposed action does not appear to "loving," it appears to be "controlling."


D) Go for the jugular and try to get the kids through the courts, filing for Divorce if need be.

Only if you are resigned to ending the marriage.


E) All of the above?

None of the above.





Your "questions" above don't indicate someone who is trying to "please God." They are all about you and what you can do to be controlling.

Opheliagrimm, THE issue for both of you is submission to, and obedience to, GOD. As long as you are both "doing your own thing," God is not going to help. He will allow you both to keep on being disobedient. It is TIME for you both to begin to consider you faith is Christ as something more than a license to willfully sin against God.

Don't you really think it's about time you surrendered to God and began behaving as if you WERE God's child and not someone else's?

Well ForeverHers you have poured some serious rain on my parade.

I pray everyday, read the bible everyday, go to church Tuesdays and Sundays.

Talk to God many times during the day and ask for his guidance on most things that I do. Especially concerning the marriage.

Ask that my words come out right and my actions work towards restoration rather than destruction.

Many of my revelations in recent times came from what I believe to be, divine intervention.

Now I pray to God for the wisdom to do the right things with the information.

As in using the phone logs from the phone company to expose to the OMW. I prayed on that long and hard. Did it and am now happy with the outcome thus far.

Hoping for the same with my options above.

You have negated every single one of them! lol

What do you suggest?

I'm still in Plan A but feeling really awful about it, given her current modus.

Could you offer up some actions that you think would be more suitable than the ones I came up with?

Thanks so much for your response. It truly is appreciated. Especially coming from a spiritual angle. I firmly believe that no progress would be made without God's grace

Opheliagrimm - why don't you start here. You BOTH have two precious gifts from God and you are BOTH modeling anything but "Christ-like" behavior.

I assume you are still in what you think is a "Plan A," but what you think is "Plan A" is really "Plan Self-indulgence."
So let's start with two things you need to focus on, since you also claim to love God.

1. Read all you can about the MB program called "Plan A" and actually DO what it says no matter what you are "feeling." The emotions WILL be there, but it is time you let the Taker go and start relying on the Giver.

Your wife has NO reason to believe anything you say. Nevermind for the moment that she, too, is an adulteress. You cannot "control" her choices or actions, you can only control your own. You (and I know this may be painful to hear, but it needs to be said) set the "ground rules" for your marriage. Those rules were, and still are, "whatever I think I want or need is justification enough for doing whatever I want to do." No only did you have an affair, you went back into it and destroyed all trust, but you continue to be focused on "what *I* need or feel I need." Therefore, your wife has no reason to believe anything you say or do, much less to trust you or have any reason to believe that "life WITH you" would be any different, especially since she was "not enough" for you.

So what does that leave you with? You have to actually change. Easy to say, harder to do, but the "hardness" of the needed changes are not an obstacle IF you ready to actually surrender both your life and your marriage to God and to DO what God commands, to conform YOUR life to one that is more and more "Christ-like."

That brings us to point two.


2. Since you are in "Plan A" and still talking to your wife, isn't it about time you began to tell her about what God is convicting YOU of? Isn't it about time that you tell her that you know (and you had better actually believe this if you say it) that the ONLY answer for a believer is to surrender all of your "wants and desires to God" and to humbly accept whatever HIS will is in this matter.

God is CLEAR...NO unrepentant adulterers will be in heaven. Given that FACT, "playing" at being a believer won't "cut it" with God. IF someone has truly accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior AND LORD, God changes their hearts and gives them the CAPACITY to obey God.

I can't put it any clearer or simpler than what Jesus Christ said himself; "IF YOU LOVE ME, obey my commands."

This is precisely what James was talking about when he discussed someone who CLAIMS to know the Lord. Faith engenders a DESIRE to "please God" and NOT to willfully sin against God. YOU have both broken the 7th Commandment, to say nothing of many other commandments, including the one about "Thou shalt not have any gods before me." In short, you are both guilty of idolatry against God. What "idolatry" you may ask? You both put your own "feelings" and your own "right" to do whatever you want AHEAD of God and ahead of humble obedience to His commands. You both elevate "self" and you have both elevated "love for an adulterer/adulteress" ahead of God. ANYTHING that occupies a position ahead of God IS idolatry.

Ophelagrimm, your old marriage is OVER. God is a partner to a believer's marriage and entered a COVENANT relationship with both of you when you married. God also KNEW that you would both be faced with adultery in your marriage and has promised to "be there" for both of you when you each REPENT and surrender to God, no matter what.

Right now, you and your wife are both behaving as "Prodigal Children" and letting your "sin-natured flesh" have control, "justifying" that action on the basis of your spouse's sin. Let's get it straight from God, okay? "Be angry, but in your anger DO NOT ALSO SIN." If you need "chapter and verse" I can provide them, but it really isn't necessary, is it? Assuming you ARE a believer, then you already have the indwelling God, the Holy Spirit" residing in you and He convicts you of sin that is ANATHEMA to God, reminding you of ALL that God has revealed in His Word. You already KNOW what "walking with God" means and "feels like," and already KNOW what "walking in the flesh and walking with Satan" means and "feels like."

So tempting to give into the flesh. So pleasurable feeling. So nice to simply "do whatever I want to do."

"Take up your cross and follow me." Is the "cross" that either of you has to "pick up and carry" any heavier or any more terrible than the Cross that Jesus carried for YOU?

So what is it going to be? Are you, Opheliagrimm, going to be the MODEL of a Christian husband....who, like Christ, GAVE himself for His bride?

NO matter what your wife does, YOU don't have a "choice" in the matter, do you? You have willingly accepted Jesus as your LORD. You are His servant and you have no right to do anything that He does not command or condone as "Christ-like" behavior, do you? So even if your marriage ends in divorce because your wife hardens her heart AGAINST God, YOU must change to a "man of God" simply because that is what God has commanded of you.

IF your wife is a believer, then you need to address (talk about) the "sinning against God" issue before any other issue. THIS IS your "crisis of faith" time for each of you. WILL you trample the sacrifice of Christ into the mud, spit on Him and tell Him that you have the right to do whatever you want no matter what He endured for you?

Talk to your wife about these things.

And when she says "too much has happened," remind her that Jesus' response to a repentant sinner is twofold. First, He ALREADY took every sin of your entire life on Himself and nailed it to the Cross. Second, forgiveness by God is precisely because NONE of us is worthy of forgiveness on our own or through our own actions. It is totally dependent upon what Jesus has already done for the believer. The unbeliever remains dead in their sins and on the path to everlasting pain and anguish for their indulgence of their "sin nature." But to the repentant believer God has two "messages;" 1) You are saved THROUGH Christ, and 2) "Woman, where are your accusers?" "Neither do I condemn you, now GO and LEAVE your life of sin."


God not only CAN, but He WILL take your broken and flawed vessel of a marriage and reform it into a vessel worthy of His use. It is GOD who will do the reforming, not either of you. All either of you need to do is to let God's hands apply the needed "pressure" to form the vessel as God sees fit to make it and to NOT RESIST God. You let Him shape your marriage and you both "surrender" to His will in the matter and "let" Him shape your marriage IN HIS WILL, not in your own individual wills.

The past IS the past. It can forgiven, but not changed. Why do you think Paul considered himself "unworthy" of being called an Apostle? Because of the terrible things he had done. But in Christ, "behold, the old is gone, the new has come."

You don't "feel love" for your spouse (applies to both of you)? Gee, I'm surprised! Not really. Sinful behavior is NOT loving behavior. IF you want to "feel in love," then start behaving in ways that say "I love you." The feelings come in response TO, not before, actions that "say" 'I love you.' That is the very same FACT of "Cause and Effect." ONLY God "loves first and then acts." "This is love, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." You now have that same capacity to "love first" and act then act because you are now God's adopted child. Isn't it about time you both began acting like God's child? What will your children see the two of you modeling as "acceptable behavior" for a child?

Isn't it about time both you and your wife "chose God?"


God bless.

Your post is beautiful ForeverHers, just beautiful

Let me wholeheartedly agree with you.

I hoped to convince you of my conviction of faith. That I have accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and I do try every day to be a Child of God. Not back slide and fall into sin.

I have done everything within my power to avoid my old ways and be a new and powerful being guided by the holy spirit.

Now, this is where we may have divergent views.

I believe that the Holy Spirit guides me and takes me down roads that while initially they may seem a bit contentious, they will ultimately deliver my marriage.

For instance. While waiting on a response, I got a notion to visit my wife and discuss what I recently found out. I struggled with the timing. Should I go lunch time or in the early morning. Did not want to impose on her work schedule as that may be a stressful matter.

As I walked outside my house, I met my land lady driving out. They were heading in the exact direction of my WW work place. I mean EXACT. As in, they drove right pass her work building.

Tell me if that is not faith? Grace of God.

Furthermore, when I arrived at my WW's workplace. She was not in the building but had just crossed the road to buy breakfast and get a newspaper. So now I could talk to her without having to call her out of the office.

Again, what were the odds? God's work is my conclusion!

I spoke to her. She was reluctant and did not want to admit her actions. I told her more of the evidence to the point that she had no doubt that I knew everything.

Explained that I was no longer hurting and was able to move forward from this. She asked for a divorce and I agreed to it, telling her to bring the papers. (reverse babble)

Borrowed the car and left.

At that point, I was still not sure how well this went.

A few minutes later. I get a call from my WWWFF. Begging me not to tell her husband about her second OM as she was trying to work things out and that he would likely kill her if faced with this.

Now she wants to be my ally in saving my marriage and not to continue moving with my wife towards a life of sin.

Can you say small miracle???

Time will only tell how this new development pans out but again, I have faith in God that it will work out for the best.

Truly I pray on most every action and for guidance on my words.

Not to be selfish but to be guided by the Holy Spirit towards my true goal. The restoration of my family.

Thanks so much again for your post ForeverHers.

I will read it over a few times to let it sink in.

My Plan A efforts will be renewed and re-invigorated!

Well today my spirit was shaken.

Spoke to my wife again and she confessed for the first time that she did have sex with the OM, many times.

Also, that she is in love with him and wants to pursue the relationship.

Two things alone are stopping her right now.

1) The fact that he is with his wife and she is watching him closely (thanks to my exposure)

2) That my WWWFF is pressuring her to stop and she values her opinion.

That said, she still does not want anything to do with me and wants to go forward with the divorce.

I agree once more but the conversation went on for about three hours and sure enough ended in an argument.

She is still smack dab in the middle of the fog, despite my best efforts thus far.

It's been about two weeks since exposure. How long does it typically take for the fog to break after exposure to the OMW?

I am really beginning to think I should go for the kids at this stage. Need to see that fog snap.

Well went to borrow the car this morning and she told me no.

That she would never lend me the car again.

Well I went into her purse and got the keys and told her, when you pay me the $15,000 still owing on the car, it is yours to do whatever you want.

Big LB but I am past caring since she filed for divorce and is still in the fog.

Her boss came out at the commotion and I informed her that my wife was having an affair and does not want anything to do with me.

Then left for her to diffuse the situation.

fun fun.

I am through being a door mat. No more money, no more support. Let the lawyers do their best.

Just be strong and plan A, but do not support her financially. You fight for everything you can. I don't believe that OM will leave his W for your WW, so you just will need to wait this one out. She will come back, so don't be needy or emotional, just strong and firm, but caring. Plan A. No more arguments or LBs. If she says something foggy, just coldly and calmly answer her. Don't let her get a rise out of you. She's trying to make you the bad guy. Don't let her.

Thanks for the reassurance but I see nothing but LBs in our future now that lawyers are involved.

How exactly do you plan A while going through divorce proceedings and while dealing with an irrational WW that wants financial support and nothing else.

Not to mention both lawyers will be going for the jugular.

I want nothing short of custody for the kids.

She wants every cent she can drain from me. Her lawyer already called today asking about the car.

I explained my piece then told him any further discussions will take place through my lawyer. That I want nothing more to do with my WW.

Sounds like a premature plan B just kicked in.

Seen any marriages pull back from this scenario? Is Plan A still possible at this stage?

Life just is not fair. Her wayward friend returns to her husband who is physically abusive and was sleeping with another woman up till the very last day. Bet he never read a marriage builders post.

On the other hand, I get served divorce despite all my readings, church and concerted efforts at reconciliation.

Finally managed to pay down my credit card to a usable level and ordered the HNHN book/CDs and SAA just two days ago. ) Looks like I may not be needing 'em after all. lol

Good guys finish last. Especially when they make a huge mistake like I did by having an affair.

Forgive the mini rant / pity party but my taker has been chomping at the bit. Not to mention my giver is exhausted.

Still having faith in God for a miracle. Not that you could tell by my crying binges since being served. Held up well during the actual conversation but the last 48 hours has seen me cry enough tears to fill a lake. Strange, since my heart is not hurting, yet the tears come.

Very disconcerting.

You don't talk D, just M. If your WW brings up the D, you just tell her that. Get a bulldog attorney and fight for everything. Don't enable her. Furnish your lawyer with proof of her A.

Read through your sitch, and I feel your pain man.

I too have cried countless tears over how much anguish and pain my initial infidelity has caused. I too have had setbacks from Plan A when I lose it and grovel, plead her to come back, beg her to forgive me, etc.

I'm really sorry to hear that you may be heading for a D. Like most people advise here, take care of yourself, and your kids. Strive to be the best dad and human being that you can be. If anything, let the Lord turn this tragedy into a learning experience that you will truly grow from.

God Bless you, and I will be praying for you and your family.

Thanks Jim and Sadpunk.

We still are not talking. My WW called for me twice but I refused to speak to her on both occassions. By reflex almost.

Still not sure why. My brain is saying "Plan A!!!" but my entire body is screaming "Plan B!!!"

My heart is fully out of the equation now and I'm not sure that is a good thing.

Maybe after speaking with my lawyer on Monday, I'll get some more clarity on how to proceed.

After church today I thought of visiting her to explain that I am still willing to work things out if my old wife should ever return. My son echoed the same sentiment. He is staying with me for the weekend and says...."Daddy, I wish my old mommy would come back."

Right now, I want nothing to do with the new woman she has become as it is destroying / has destroyed my love for my wife.

Fear not Jim, no matter what I do, I won't fall back into financially supporting and enabling her affair like I have been doing for the past months. Giving her the car, money, etc...

Still praying for a miracle.

Thanks again for all the support.