I'm not in a position to do a real Plan A, but I could use some advice on an initial iteration of some sort of game plan. I've been getting a few ducks in a row for upcoming events but otherwise am in general just floundering around at the moment. I am working on me somewhat and praying a lot, but lining those ducks up these last few weeks has been a big distraction.

I had a thread back in October that goes over a lot of details about our situation. Uh, I think you guys THREW ME UNDER THE BUS!!! I got some good advice back then, but our living arrangements have changed. To save you time, I'll give you a summary of our situation here (plus update things).

About a year ago my wife said we needed to sell the house we had moved into in December of 2004. The overhead was just too much. I agreed about the overhead and suggested a couple of things to greatly reduce it (involving me doing yard and pool work that we were paying others to do). She wasn't interested in my ideas (and I'm sure believed, probably correctly in my pre-med state, that I couldn't or wouldn't do that work consistently). We put the house on the market in June. My wife told both me and the realtor that we would rent after the house sold so that we could catch up on some debt. On Labor Day (when we thought the house would be sold 9/30) she hit me with the "I don't love you, never did, you need to find someone to love who loves you" message. Additionally, she told me that when our home sold we would be moving into separate households. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> I worked on deposits to her Love Bank big time the rest of the month, got my long-held but never-voiced self-diagnosis of adult ADD confirmed and got on meds in mid-September (and those made a tremendous difference, particularly in areas in which she had issues with me), and got my first inkling of a possible affair late that month. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> On October 4th she confirmed an affair (her first, she said when I asked, & I still believe her) that had been going on for a year. After some exposure, she told me the next week that the affair was over (and was VERY down for a good while afterwards). We sold our house and moved out 11/10/06. She is living in a leased house while I'm in an apartment less than 10 minutes away. After the move I helped her a LOT with unpacking, arranging, hanging pictures, etc. for a couple of weeks. Now that she doesn't need my help, we're in contact 2 or 3 times a week.

The affair is now on like Donkey Kong. She took a couple of weeks off after the move. Her MOM came over many times for lunch plus spent hours there with her other times. Right now the at-home activities are on hold as our son is home from college until 01/09/07 or so. I'm in snoop mode big time. This has allowed me to get pictures of the happy pair exiting a couple of restaurants plus of his car backing out of her garage. I watched him sneak out of her house at 10:00 on a Friday night and walk almost a mile to the shopping center where he left his truck. I now know numerous places they meet for lunch or dinner. It is possible (probable I hope) that while they can't use the house they'll go back to where they were getting together in the past. That info could be useful down the road. There's a lot of other snooping that has gained me valuable information.

The MOM is 45. My wife is a 55-year old psychiatrist (MD for those that get them confused with psychologists). She had physical therapy starting back in the summer of 2005 because of neck/shoulder/upper back pain. She continued to use the business as a work out place since it is near her office. He works there and at some point started giving her massages as he is a massage therapist. As best I can tell he has no plans to leave his wife and (high school senior) twins, but I also think that my wife wants him to. I haven't been served any papers, so this is not a "legal" separation (with implications about debts, assets, and income). Last week I talked to a lawyer whose best advice was to do nothing legally unless she starts something. She makes many times what I do & is probably on the hook for spousal support if there is a divorce in our future. He did suggest I hire a private investigator to do some video taping in case that should be needed down the road, but I don't know if I want to.

As best I can tell, this is a romantic affair (at least on my wife's part). I think he's just more in lust and know he's given her the standard "I don't get any at home" and "I've only done this once before" lines. I don't believe it is a classic exit affair and do believe that she didn't intend for me to find out. Our oldest daughter is a 30-year old doctor living in another state. She believes her mother is in a mid-life crisis. Part of that, I think, could be a fear of getting older. My wife had lots of freckles. About the time the affair started, she began laser therapy to remove them. I know from Internet Explorer history and temporary files that she was looking at boob jobs and hair extensions back in August. I'm sure she finds it wonderful to be desired by a younger man, especially one who can also put her into massage nirvana. It's ironic (to me anyway) that one of the things she said to me before we moved was that I was only interested in her for sex. Untrue, and I told her so with explanations. (FYI, I got cut off a couple of months after the affair started because of 'cycle problems,' something I know she is still having. Funny how someone only interested in sex stuck it out and left her alone for so long. Why didn't I just have an affair?) Well anyway, based on snooping it's pretty clear to me that sex is his main interest (a quote of his from a conversation they had yesterday: "I can't wait to get you 'nekid' again." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Her replies: "You're so cute. {giggle} Well, it sounds like fun. {laugh} You're just spoiling me rotten. {giggle}" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> ) 99% of people who know we are separated (and know nothing about the affair) would vote for me to kick her to the curb. I met her when she was 14, we started dating when she was 15. I've known her for over 40 years. She's still in there somewhere. Odds may be (may be? how about obviously are) against me/us, but I will not look back and know that I didn't do everything I could to give us another chance together.

Okay, where do I go from here? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I'm not around her enough to do a full-blown Plan A. We ate out together a few times when I was helping her so much in November (always at her suggestion). Eating out now has only been when other family members were involved too. I asked a couple of weeks ago if she wanted to see the Blue Man Group in February or George Strait in January. No. I don't think there is any point in asking about movies, etc. (but I'll listen to any reasons I should keep asking). We both have things left to unpack, so a time or two a week our phone calls are about what we unpacked that belongs to the other. We have some issues with the buyers of our house, so that's another reason to call. About the only semi-fun thing I can come up with is to cook on Sunday afternoons and then have her and our second daughter & son-in-law over to eat. I've done that once so far (but could do it weekly) plus have cooked other times & given lots of food to her and our daughter. There's nothing I can do to compete with the excitement of this affair, so I'm not going to try. I do want to be able to be in contact more if I can find legitimate reasons. I haven't talked to her about the affair since we moved, so she may think I'm in the dark about the resumption. I know not to Love Bust plus to be upbeat around her, but I feel awkward & often at a loss for words. I'm also trying for obvious changes in myself, but I still feel like I'm stumbling around in the dark as far as a plan. The books (I've got almost all of them but haven't had time to read much yet) seem to all assume the BS & FS are still living together, so I'm not finding good ideas. Got any?

Since I often know where they are eating, I could contrive to walk in, be surprised, and make some comment about one of us should tell the other our schedule to avoid future meetings, but I don't see a real point in doing so. Could the exposure (if only to strangers seated at nearby tables who happened to figure out what was happening) help? Even so, that's not a plan, just one thing to possibly do.

The only thing on my agenda right now is to talk to his wife (praying that she loves her husband and doesn't use this as a way out). I need to summarize the cell phone evidence before I do. I've got copies of my digital pictures coming as I think that will get her attention. Based on my snooping, I finally figured out where she works and now know that I've talked to her in the past about business at least twice. I've got a pretty natural reason to talk to her (and then move to the real reason for my visit) but would like to do it late in the day with the suggestion that we need to talk after work. I don't plan to tell her all of what I know and definitely not how I know what I know. My best scenario with her would be if she would cooperate with me and tell her husband she got the pictures from a private investigator she had hired. That would hopefully leave me in a position to know about future contact. There are a lot of ways talking to his wife could play out (not all of them good for me). If anyone has suggestions about handling this, fire away. I think I want to wait until our son goes back to college. That leaves him out of any drama (at least first hand drama) plus gives his wife a chance to see things for herself if she really wants to. The upside of exposing to his wife before our son leaves would be to eliminate any remote possibility of the MOM moving in to continue the affair.

Okay, plan me a plan pretty please. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great post, and telling of the story. Often pulling the story out of someone takes pages and pages.

I would continue with your Plan A - the cookouts sound nice, so try to do as often as you can. If your wife doesn't show up, invite daughter, neighbors, etc.

You need to notify the OM's wife as soon as possible. If you can do it in person, that would be great. Be sure to have copies of supporting docs that you could leave with her - emails, pictures, etc.

By the way, I would follow the advice to get pictures. It's better to have them and not need them, than to need them and not have them.

But I think as soon as OW's wife gets wind of this, he will drop your wife like a hot potato.

Great advice from Believer... I would add that your exposure should go much further than the OM's W. I would start in concentric circles, exposiing to all the people close to your WW who could be influential in encouraging her end the affair. This would include her parents, siblings, close friends, aunts, uncles, all those who are (or were before the affair) very close to her.

Finish "Surviving an Affair" and read the first 4 posts in "Just Found Out". Find the post here in GQII about the carrot and stick of Plan A, and put all the combined information to work. If you know others who are close to the OM, expose to them, as well.

This is not a part time endeavor, and will require all your strength and energy, but it's what needs to be done if you wish to impact the affair.

Best wishes,
SD

SD & believer, thank you for the quick replies!

The Plan A part is hard because of not seeing her very often. I see her an hour a week, maybe two if she comes over with the dtr/son-n-law to eat. With our son staying with her, she sees the OM at least 4 hours a week (some lunches plus workouts/massages mainly). Without him around, the OM spends at least 10 hours/week at her house (at least that's the pattern so far). I can definitely Plan A when I'm around her (or taking care of things for her/us when I'm not around), but it's sure not much time. Ever since I got on the ADD meds I'm very much in a pro-active mode. Perhaps I should think more about the "working on me" as pro-active.

As far as exposure goes, I did some of that back in early October. Our adult daughters (30 & 27) know as does my wife's sister (59), our pastor (I counseled with him 3 times), two friends in the ministry in CA, and my best male friend (great for moral support but married 4 times). Our son doesn't know (from me anyway) but I suspect he has a good idea of what is going on. If you read my other thread you'll see that when I told her who knew she went wild. I'm not sure who else to tell now besides the OM's W. His employer would be a possibility. Since the OM is licensed by the state and has broken one of the cardinal rules (no sexual contact), he could lose his license for 5 years. I've got a hotmail account that I'm using to ask questions about the complaint procedures. I do love my wife and want to know how public investigations become. I also want to know how much proof they need. I did hear from the investigator that she has passed my questions on to the head of the board for a response. Nothing yet, but I'm thinking hard about this angle.

Again, thank you both. I will do some reading tonight (and will be picking up my pictures too). Of interest, I see that she returned to the physical therapy location (one suite of offices in a 4-5 story building) at 4:59 and moved her car to a different parking lot (bank) at 5:07. That's about 10 minutes from here and is sort of on my way home, so I may leave shortly and swing by. The implication is that they fool around in the office after hours (he does advertise as taking clients in the evenings and the massage room is behind closed doors). I find it hard to believe she would do that very late though as surely the night guard would figure out the score at some point. Based on cell phone records they were together somewhere on some evenings until past 7 (and sometimes past 8). Maybe they get in his car and go elsewhere. My car is too noticeable for me to try for pictures. (I used a different car when I got the pictures of them.) It might be fun to just park beside her car and wait, but that would stir the pot too soon (and might raise the question of how I knew where the car was).

BT

They probably do fool around in the office. YUCK.

I'm thinking that this is more of a Mid-Life-Crisis thing. She is about the right age, kids out of the house, etc. But the big thing about MLC problems is that the person blames their partner for EVERYTHING. Your wife, being a shrink should be able to figure this out.

Please expose to the OM's wife, and the board. It would sure be cool to catch him doing it at work. He may even be doing it with OTHER clients. Maybe you could do a background search on him.

I heartily and enthusiastically second Believer's last suggestion. Expose to the OM's wife, and make her your ally, because it's harder to fool and deceive 2 pairs of eyes, and Yes, Yes, Yes, expose him to his employer, AND the state board. Maybe the threat of losing his license/employment/income will give him a hard glimpse of reality.

SD

I did see where she hid her car (and took a few pictures from 100 yards). I don't know if they went off somewhere in his car/truck or were inside the offices.

Yes, believer, my wife does blame me for everything. The marriage was always bad, to hear her tell it. Well, I'll go with the marriage was seldom if ever what it should have been. I also told her (in writing) in October that if I could push a button and make the affair retroactively go away so that the marriage would continue as it was, I wouldn't push it. I don't want to go back to the way things were. I want a great marriage, not what we had. For me though, my name for 2006 isn't "The Year it All Fell Apart" but "The Year God Got My Attention." As horrible as this has been, there could have been tougher ways to get my attention (like the death of a child, perhaps). I've never named years before, but this seems appropriate.

I did enjoy in a perverse way talking to my wife on the phone and then at her place after she returned. My "Gosh, sweetie, they're working you to death," was something fun for me to say about a very unfunny reality. Other times hearing some of her conversations clues me in to her lies. She really wasn't like this before. I guess the lies in hiding the affair make it that much easier to lie.

I did a background search on the OM months ago. At least no criminal record showed up. I would bet that he has done this with other clients. I doubt that he would chance anything at work with other people around (but he is the only one there after hours). He has at least a couple of email addresses, but I only know one. He told my wife the 2nd one was so his wife wouldn't know about things and that he used email with his previous girlfriend. If he'll just use the computer at her house I may learn a LOT about him. Just working with the known email name I've found him registered at "freerub.com" aka "findamassagepartner.com." He is, of course, a male looking for a female massage partner. I joined as a 33-year old female to entice him, but no nibbles yet.

If things go well with his wife I'll probably talk to her about the board & employer. I do really want her as an ally . I really do want reality to come crashing in on him. I love my wife, but as far as I'm concerned it's personal with him (but not in a violent way).

Again, thank you both (and I'm still open to other ideas or viewpoints from anyone else).

BT

I don't think you're going to get any better advice than you've already read. Plan A where you can...both carrot and stick of plan A.

That means exposure where you need to in order to get the affair to end. I would IMMEDIATELY go to his wife and the board...it sounds to me like you've got more than enough evidence for either. Don't wait, and don't let your wife know you're going to do it.

Expect a whole new round of explosive anger from your wife when you do. Just like last time...this is NORMAL, and almost never means anything.

Have you considered counseling with the Harley's themselves? I'd heartily recommend it in this case.

Owl,

Thank you for your advice. I do need to do some more reading (a LOT more). As far as Plan A, I've been more focused on the carrot and the lack of time together to dangle it. I need to go back & pay some more attention to the stick.

I did think at one time about couseling with the Harleys actually. Right now I've got to focus on coming up with the money to pay for all my snoop related investments (well worth every penny). In a month I should be in decent enough financial shape for a call or three.

The other thing I'm going to do is pick up one or more books for the OMW. Unless she has been on this ride before (and maybe even if she has) she probably could use the help.

BT

Buy books for you. Your wife is in a fog and she will pooh-pooh any attempt you make to "educatie" her. Trying to educate a WS is like throwing cottonballs at a crocodile.

Purchase and read "Surviving an Affair", and pick up a copy of "His needs/Her needs" while you're there.

The book offers the same philosophy as this website, and the posts you receive will make more sense if you are familiar with Harley's philosophy.

SD

SD,

Actually, I was thinking of books for the OM's wife, not for my wife. You are right, I don't think there is a chance in the world my wife would read any book so I'm not about to give her one. I, on the other hand, know that two of the 6 seminars my wife attended last month at a psych convention were: The Nouns of Love & The Verbs of Love. The presenter (Stephen B. Levine) just came out with a book, Demystifying Love. I pre-ordered it, and it arrived this week. It's not a high priority for me to read it now, but I will read it pretty soon & see if I can gain some insight into a shrink's perspective (and maybe find a few thoughts to interject into conversations down the road without telling her I've read the book).

BT

BT... guess I've been reading and posting toooo much, and my eyesight failed me. What you are proposing is an EXCELLENT idea, and very thoughtful of you.

Since I seem to be challenged by just reading short paragraphs here, I'd best not take on a book of psychobabble... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />LOL!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SD

Well, things are about to get very interesting. I finally met with the OM's wife tonight before she left work. We talked for about 20 minutes. I gave her the pictures and told her about the cell phone records (and let her look through them). I was surprised how calmly she seemed to take things. She was going to call her husband and have him meet her somewhere. I gave her my cell phone number and told her that there was much more I could tell her about what was going on if she needed to know and had the time.

She called me later. She and the OM talked for about an hour. He, of course, was in denial mode. The pictures of his car backing out of my wife's garage made him switch from outright denial to "well, 2 or 3 times." Two or three times, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> How about two or three times a week for most weeks for over 15 months so far. That's what the cell phone records would suggest. The OM's wife grabbed his cell phone early on & looked at the called numbers. She told me she was going to call and talk to my wife. She also expected the OM to call my wife. If he calls first I bet my wife won't answer subsequent calls. The OM will probably start using my wife's pager so she'll call him back at a "safe" number. The OM's wife said she might not even go home tonight (but didn't say where she might stay). I expect to hear from her again over the weekend.

I'm a little surprised that my wife hasn't called. She can't be a happy camper. If this is like the exposure back in October, I'm sure she thinks (and will tell me) that I hate her. I'm pretty sure she thinks anything I do like this is only because I hate her and want to get back at her for hurting me. Whatever the accusations and anger, I will keep my cool. I'll look over some other threads before we talk and (hopefully) have a chance to practice my responses. I'm sure nothing I say will make any sense to her (just as I would have not understood when I had an EA twenty years ago).

I'm guessing that my focus in the coming weeks will be to help the OM's wife in any way I can to end the affair. I hope she'll be in touch so I can refute the lies her husband will tell her and encourage her. I don't know what she has in mind in terms of exposure. I didn't get a chance to give her my copy of SAA but plan to the next time I see her.

I, of course, am open to any advice on handling the coming days, both with respect to my wife and to the OM's wife. I sure wish we weren't living apart, but she finessed that issue very well unfortunately. I will still have opportunities to talk to my wife about some other things that we need to jointly handle, so all contact won't be cutoff. I'll Plan A when I can.

BetrayedToo

Expect your wife to be angry. She may say that now you have done it, she was going to work on the marriage, but now she is done, it was none of your business, you went about doing it the wrong way, you are crazy, how could you hurt the OM's wife like this, and my personal favorite, she will never trust you again.

You respond with you love her, want to stay married and will do what it takes to save the marriage. Repeat as necessary.

expose to the licensing board Monday

but don't expose to the bottom rung of the board ... get to the highest rung possible

if OM is not self-employed ... expose to his employer as well .... this boinking at work is reason for termination .... coz it brings too much liability risk for employers

mess up their comfort zone as much as possible

then duck & cover wearing your asbestos fire-proof suit and your bullet proof boxers ... she will verbally shoot you

when WW shoots ... you say "Adultery is always painful for everyone."

WW will attempt to place blame on you for the terrible thing "you did" to OMW and OM twins ....

when she does this you repeat

"Adultery is always painful for everyone."

don't say "What you did hurt them, not me."

You blame adultery ... and don't call it *affair* when speaking to WW .... call it adultery ... and NEVER refer to OM as anything but as his wife's husband NEVER NEVER "your lover" ... "your adultery partner" is fine

"Jennifer's husband is in trouble at work because of adultery, not because of me."

you're doing good so far... keep your chin up

their relationship is way too lopsided to last

get tested for STDs ... sorry

Pep

Believer,

Well, no reaction yet, but it's coming. She may want to talk to the OM again to get the latest from his side. I sure wish the OMW would call me.

I've no doubt that you're spot on with most of what she'll say. However, she definitely won't say anything about working on the marriage. She doesn't understand why I don't realize there is no future for us; she's gave me the "never loved you" spiel 4 months ago (before I knew of the affair) and that settles it in her mind. I promise you she'll pursue the "you hate me" angle. I bet I hear about control again too.

Thank you for the reminder of the kinds of things she'll say.

BT

the alien script is just so predictable
there have been many threads on this subject

expect venom
don't suck it in

realize that her venom level shows you her level of addiction

ya'know

Pep

Pepperband,

Thank you for the advice. I really like the "Adultery is always painful for everyone" response.

It's interesting that you mentioned saying adultery and not affair. I've used both in the past and have been thinking the last week or so about not saying adultery. I guess I really wonder how she'll view me many months or years down the road post FOG in terms of my actions and words in the here and now. Yeah, it is what it is, and adultery is the name, I know that, but adultery is a pretty judgmental word while affair isn't.

I've been guilty of saying "your lover" occasionally in the past. Most often I would just use his name (to show her that I really did know who he was). Using "Jennifer's husband" does make a lot of sense; I will do that.

I thought about the STD angle months ago as there was a definite overlap of 2 or 3 months in 2005. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I've gotten information on out-of-town testing. (Since she is in the medical community I'm hesitant about local testing.) Getting that done is on my list.

BT

The de-fogged will remember you had the cajones to stand up for MARRIAGE

you maintained your integrity

you had the determination to kill the affair in order to save the MARRIAGE

.... besides ... don't you have enough to worry about today?

spending 1 second worrying about what a WW might think of certain words you used when under the chaos of adultery is a waste of today's energy

you avoid actual insults ... (b!tch, the "c" word", the "f" word, etc)

but you call adultery adultery ... because in the alien brain it is a "love affair"

bust that bubble

Pep

you just picked one of my pet peeves

RAPE is pretty judgemental

we might just have to call it "unwelcome use of another's body"

INCEST is pretty judgemental

we just might have to call it "excessive family bodily contact"

CANCER is ugly ... want to rename that too?

see my point

it is right to judge the ACT

you are NOT judging her
but the ACT it's self is ugly and ought not be dressed up to appear pretty

Pep