For the most part, the advice I’ve seen on this site is incredible and I need some of the best asap. For background, my W and I have been together about a year. This is a second marriage for us both. My first marriage ended when I exposed an affair. The present relationship has been very good and I have a great deal of trust in my W – she is an honest and caring person. Nothing that follows has changed that opinion of her. Those readers who are overly cynical please be kind.

When we first got together, there were two men in W’s life that I had struggles with. Charlie was an old serious boyfriend who just cannot let go. Despite W letting him know that she wanted to continue a relationship with him only on a friendship level, during our dating he was constantly throwing hooks and bait to get something started again. W has known Charlie for 30 years and has been hesitant to shut the door on all contact.

The second was Johnny. Johnny is married and works in the same field as W. Johnny and W have “chemistry” together and it is obvious when they are together. At one point before W and I met, they became “confused” about where their relationship was heading and, after a minor crisis, (Johnny’s wife found some flirty emails) resolved it in favor of friendship. W tells me that nothing physical ever passed between them, and I believe her. But, she admits that she “loves” Johnny as a friend and that he is important to her – her best friend outside of our relationship. W has, in the meanwhile, become friends with Johnny’s entire family. We socialize together on occasion. Despite this, the chemistry she has with Johnny clearly remains and I have been very threatened and troubled by it. We had major problems at the beginning of our relationship over this. She insisting that I should not dictate who her friends were and that I should trust her to handle the situation in a manner that honors our relationship; and me being leery of this setup as a dangerous minefield.

The result has been a stalemate of sorts; over our marriage W has kept contact with both of these guys to a low level. I really have nothing to complain about, except that Charlie persists in sending regular emails to W about trivial matters. W has told me about these emails voluntarily.

Forward to yesterday. I had some free time at work and I became curious to see what Charlie’s emails might contain. So I breached W’s email account and looked at her mail.

There were the letters from Charlie, and they were all of a sort and kind that W had told me about. However, there was one from Johnny too, and I couldn’t help but look. In it, Johnny was excusing himself for missing a holiday party, saying that he had been looking forward to “hitting on you in a drunken stupor” … a bit more banter and then, “Have I told you how sexy you are?”. To her credit, her response to this email was benign, not flirty, but she did express interest in getting together soon for lunch.

I found myself in the snooper’s dilemma. W would be furious to know, but it was causing me a major meltdown to hold this in. Against advice of my close friends, I told her about it.

As expected, she was extremely upset. She feels betrayed and that I violated her privacy without cause. She dismisses Johnny’s remarks as harmless and accuses me of trying to control her friendship or force her to end it, closing her world in until I’m the only male in her life. She says that she should be trusted to handle any inappropriate advances and that my actions only drive her away. Now she says she wants to go to Johnny for advice on this, since he is involved and he went through a similar thing with his wife. To make matters worse, we are scheduled to go to Johnny’s New Year’s party – a big event every year.

My questions:

1) I know many on this board advocate no privacy between spouses, but I don’t necessarily hold with that. I feel lousy for snooping when she gave me no reason – can you comment?
2) Am I making a big deal about nothing with this?
3) Should I confront Johnny on this matter?

makinmistakes,
I don't think you are making something out of nothing. When something doesn't feel right to you there probably is a reason. I see some red flags here.

If you want the best M you can, read this site, His Needs Her Needs, and Lovebusters. Discuss things with your W.

Johnny should not be involved in any aspect of your M. It is not his business. You and your wife should talk to a professional, not Johnny.

I do see some problems here. I would have my eyes WIDE OPEN.

If it makes you uncomfortable & causes friction in your marriage my feeling is your W should be more responsive to making you feel more comfortable.

This, to me, would mean complete access to her communications between these two men.

You might explain to your W the reason you snooped was due to your level of discomfort with these two men & the flirty nature of her married friend's email. You felt she was dismissing your concerns & you checked her email because you were feeling insecure.

Speaking to Johnny VS confronting would be the way I would go. I'd tell him you don't like the nature of conversations with your W. Tell him you feel it steps over a line. Make it clear you don't want your W to lose him as a friend or that you're not trying to break up their friendship but that it makes you uncomfortable & would like him to ratchet down the sexual talk with her. Maybe ask Johny's wife how she feels about the nature of the relationship between her H & your W.

Then keep a close eye on what goes on. Is your W becoming secretive? Does she let you see all communication? Has she opened a new email account, bought a new cell phone?

1) She has given you reason. These are the types of people that affairs begin with when problems arise in your marriage. There should be no secrets in marriage for THIS VERY REASON!

2) No you aren't. You better watch this closely or you will be 2 for 2 in marriages that you have been cheated on. This is a threat to the marriage.

3) You should explain in a non threatening manor your concerns about these friends, and if she does not end it with these friends, you need to expose without warning. Get copies of those emails, and give them to Johnny's wife. I'm sure she wouldn't like knowing what he is doing. It would be nice to have someone help police things on the other side. Expose to her family. I'm sure she wants to be flirted with by many guys, but if there are several dozen disapproving eyes looking at her when she's doing it, it won't be fun anymore.

Listen, all of this will make her incredibly angry, but what is worse, her getting pissed off at you for a few days, or her starting up into an affair with this Johnny fellow. You need to take a stand and protect your marriage. Don't love bust, but explain to your wife that this is the situation that led to you getting cheated on the first time, and you are not going to let it happen again. Additionally, you cannot have a complete, intimate relationship if she has other men outside the relationship fulfilling some ENs. It will only keep you two from experiencing true closeness.

You can choose to ignore my advice if you wish, but you know why you came here and what you have to do. That is why second marriages fail more than first marriages because people don't learn from the mistakes they made that caused the first one to fail.

Sorry you are here. This stuff isn't easy but you, my friend, have found the best support system available IMO.

Have you read the articles on this website regarding "radical honesty" and the 4 rules of protection? If not, please do asap. Also, please read the articles on "emotional needs" and "lovebusters".

Anything your wife does should not be kept a secret from you. You have every right to read her emails. Before my H's online EA, he would have been really ticked off if I read his stuff. He understands about radical honesty now and wouldn't have a problem with this now. Pre-A, I felt guilty for spying on him. I don't know and never will again. (Although, I didn't peek at things during christmas cuz I didn't want to spoil any surprises. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

From what I read in your post, you're wife is having an emotional affair with this guy and it has to stop. It will get worse, trust me. You are lucky that you're finding out now before it has become physical (if not already).

Spouses who do these kinds of things are definitely, without a doubt, going to lie through their teeth about what's really going on.

Read all the articles on this website and try to get her involved. Definitely fill out the "emotional needs questionnaire" with her and this will be the carrot for everything else.

Start building your relationship up with her with the info on this site and eventually I believe she will see that what she's doing is wrong, wrong, wrong.

makinmistakes - I guess the "answer" to your dilemna with your wife and these "friendships" she wants to maintain is, hopefully, contained in your marriage vows.

For most people, part of the VOW goes as follows; "Forsaking ALL others, keeping myself solely unto YOU, until death do us part."

This is a voluntary choice by both husband and wife that is based in love for, and surrender of self to, your spouse.

There is no room in ANY marriage for a 3rd person, other than God.

It really is that plain and simple.

Anything else reveals selfishness and self-centeredness that inherently puts "ME" ahead of "THEE."

You have to choose whether or not you want a marriage or a roommate. But "cakewalking" has no place in a marriage.

God bless.

Makinmistakes,

Just want to add that when my FWH had his A it started out as a friendship. They fished together aand got very close. I knew they were friends and I didn't mind them fishing together, but something didn't feel right after awhile. So I checked his email. That day he had written her an email that called her "lovely lady" and that he was thinking about her as usual.

Nowhere did it say "I love you" or anything like that, but it was inappropriate. I confronted him and he said they were "just friends". He was mad that I looked in his email. And he changed his password. That told me alot. I continued snooping. Finally I hired a PI. Yes it was an A. EA and PA.

Keep your guard up. If she is in an A, she probably won't fess up to it right away anyway. If she's not, she's on a slippery slope. It sounds like it's at least an EA.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think Johnny knows more about YOUR M than you do about the R between the 2 of them?

mm, your wife probably will have an affair, if she is not now, because your marriage is not affair proofed. It is wide open and vulnerable to an affair because she is crossing all the boundaries in a marriage that should be protected. But, I think you know that or you wouldn't have been concerned in the first place. You are willing to take that risk.

When it does happen, and it likely will unless something changes, you know where to come. Just know that you can't continue the way you are and NOT expect it.

Coping with Infidelity: Part 2

[section on snooping]

For an unfaithful spouse to engage in an affair without detection, two separate lives must be created, one for the lover and one for the spouse. A certain amount of dishonesty is required in both of them, but the major deception is with the spouse.

So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

[Mel's note: this tactic works well on the more gullible spouses]

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?

Another type of clue is records of communication such as telephone records, letters and e-mail. Most affairs depend on repeated contacts and evidence of those contacts can usually be found. That's how M.S. discovered her husband's affair. When his lover was living in the same city, he was able to hide his affair, but after he moved, it became almost impossible for him to keep his communication a secret. He was addicted to daily contact, and M.S. saw evidence of it almost immediately after the move. But how many people move away from a lover? It's very rare, and if M.S.'s family had not moved, she may never have discovered the affair because she trusted her husband.

When a couple spend their leisure-time away from each other, it is not only a breeding ground for an affair, but it can also be another clue to an affair. That's especially true when a spouse doesn't want the other to be present at their favorite activity. I counseled a man who went fishing every summer for a week with his friends, wives not invited. But they did invite a secretary from work who cooked their meals (and had sex with them all) during the trip.

Anything that takes one spouse away from the other overnight is an invitation for an affair. But when an opposite-sex co-worker tends to join a spouse on business trips, red flags should be flying in all directions. Any evidence that this relationship is anything more than pure business is, from my perspective, a gigantic clue that an affair might be in progress. That's also the case if a spouse and opposite-sex co-worker spend a great deal of time working together.

We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable.

Look what happened to poor Kathy Lee Gifford. She stated publicly and wrote in one of her books that she trusted her husband completely, that he would never cheat on her. But she should not have trusted her husband. If she would have taken the steps she is now taking to help him avoid another affair, the first would never have taken place, and she would have avoided all its pain and embarrassment. I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe.

article con'd at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

It is too bad this issue has not been put to rest before marriage.

Your wife has fallen into the trap that she thinks she can have men for close friends and not fall in love or have a relationship with them.

WRONG!!!!

My husband always believed that women and men should not have "best friend status" that in doing so, would be comparible to a child playing with matches.

Fast speed forward, my husband had an emotional affair with the activities director of my MIL's assisted living facility.

The ingredients were all there.

He was in a turmoil and feeling guilty about his mother.

OW made him feel good about himself.

He and OW spent more than 15 hours a week together.

His feelings were cemented after going on the assited living facilities day trips with OW and MIL and their group and spending time together doing fun things.

This rang the lovepoints up so fast that his love bank overspilled and he fell in love with the OW.

That simple.

Men and Women cannot be "best friends".

She might see herself in "Not Just Friends", by Shirley Glass.

Take care,

k.d.'s heartbreak

Good question... I don't think Johnny knows more at this point, but I think W believes that it should be okay to share whatever she wants with whomever she wants, as long as her motives are "clean" as she puts it...

Thats just doublespeak. The road to ****** is paved with "clean" intentions. You can see what those "clean" motives are doing to your marriage and doing to her "friendships." I believe she is leading these men on becuase she loves the admiration. She is getting from them what she should be getting from her husband. They are meeting NEEDS of hers, which is an INVITATION to an affair. Nor can she be "friends" with Charlie, they had a romantic relationship and have evolved beyond that point.

Edited: does Charlies WIFE know he was trying to hit on her?

Then she's not protecting you or your M. And you don't know how bad it has gotten. WS say alot of things to cover themselves.

I'd be watching very closely and I would become proactive in my M building journey. Start now.

They are meeting NEEDS of hers, which is an INVITATION to an affair. Nor can she be "friends" with Charlie, they had an affair and have evolved beyond that point. End quote Melody Lane



You hit the nail on the head, Melody.

Poster needs to fill his wife's need for admiration, not another man.


k.d.'s heartbreak

I wholeheartedly agree with MelodyLane. They are meeting some of her ENs. As long as they are, they will remain a threat to your M. Period.

I work with all males and I assure you that my response would not be "benign" if a male collegue or male "friend" wrote the above to me. First off, I know of NONE who have so little respect for me as a married woman.

And secondly, all he11 would break loose if a "friend" spoke down to me like I was a wh*re. My H would be hearing about it, too.

These are not the communications of "friends," mm. He does not act like a "friend" nor does your W respond as a "friend."

I agree with Melody.

The "banter" about hitting on your wife in a drunken stupor was actually probably thrown out there to see her reaction. This is where she needed to put on the brakes, tell him that this was not acceptable ,she is married, and will notify her husband, his wife and management at the next inappropriate remark.

Instead she talked about getting together (for lunch ha-ha) soon. BIG RED FLAG.

I can't remember who wrote it but I read something that struck me dead on about the difference between privacy and secrecy on MB. I can't quote it exactly but basically the person said that privacy is doing something that everyone knows about but it is done in private; like having sex or using the bathroom. Everyone knows that everyone uses the bathroom but they don’t need to know when you are going or be there when you do. It’s the same for sex, everyone knows a married couple has sex (at least they should be) but they don’t need to know when or be there when it happens! Secrecy is when you do something that you want to hide from another person and there should never be any secrets in a marriage. You have not violated your wife’s privacy rather you have busted her behaving in a secretive and deceptive manner that contradicts the vows you took when you got married. For a long time WS made me feel like an a** for violating his so called “privacy” so that when I busted him doing something that smacked of wrongness the focus would always be on my violating his “privacy” instead of his violating our relationship! Don’t fall for it, it’s a dirty trick the guilty use to avert attention away from their crimes.

MM --
You do see that she has got you on the defensive, right?
You do see that the issue is the inappopriate comments -- not your snooping, right?
You do see that her offensive posture is allowing her to continue this relationship by shutting you up, right?
You do see that you are being manipulated by a typical WS ploy, right?

That mighta been me. I've often posted the following:

Privacy = You'll know what I'm doing; I'll just be alone while I'm doing it, like taking a nap, taking a shower or using the toilet.

Secrecy = I'm doing stuff I don't want you to know about.

Your marriage is definitely being threatened. You must take steps NOW to get the intruders out, since your wife is the one who is foolishly opening the door and inviting them in. It's up to you to protect your marriage. She has already shown you that she will not.
Mulan

When I first saw some SMSes on my wife's mobile phone that made me 'uncomfortable' I didn't do anything about it cause just like you, I was stuck wondering if I should confront her about it or not. Worse for me was that the SMSes were from another woman, a lesbian who was 'targeting' my wife, though it wasn't that obvious at the time.

Anyway, my inaction and indecisiveness (despite my instincts telling me something was wrong) resulted in a short PA starting between them both a few weeks later, which was revealed and stopped AFTER I confronted her with the SMSes eventually. We are still on rocky ground trying to repair our marriage.

I would advise you to listen to the advice of the ppl here telling you to confront her with the emails before it is too late (if it isn't already). Its much harder to turn back once the EA leads to a PA, far harder than explaining why you were looking at her emails on the sly.

Regards