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Please start here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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Well,I believe everything that could be said HAS been said! Night all! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I find this conversation and differing opinions on Forgiveness, with or without the offenders repentence, to be interesting and I'd like to learn more about it.
I had never heard the premise we should require the wrong doer to ask for our forgiveness before giving it. I was always taught you forgive regardless.
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Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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Let me clarify- I did not say that Melody Lane or anyone else was living with a spirit of unforgiveness.
I said that if I (personal) did not forgive I (personal) would be in a spirit of unforgiveness.
I strongly believe that the Bible says in that verse that if they ask for forgiveness you forgive them. I do not see anywhere where it says that ONLY if they ask forgiveness do you forgive them.
I do read where it says that if I go to pray and I have something against someone I need to forgive them for God to hear my prayer.
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Well, I want to understand it better.
Since I've struggled with the failure of fully forgiving my ex-H and OW, maybe its the reason why.
Jo
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Jo - I think it's a process. The OM in our situation is still making things very difficult for our children. That makes it hard. But I know I have to forgive him and let it go. I do ask God to help me to forgive him.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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From the other thread:
"I can tell you this, If I live with a spirit of unforgivenss, I can not have a right relationship with God. That hurts me. It doesn't hurt you if I don't have a right relationship with him.
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MF, does Jesus live with a "spirit of unforgiveness" because not everyone accepts his gift? Does he force this gift cheaply to those who dont want it?"
My reply: No, Jesus does not live with a spirit of unforgiveness - because he has offered the forgiveness. It is up to others to accept it.
If I fail to do offer it- or be willing to forigve - If I hang on to the hurt and bitterness and hold a grudge- then I am wrong-
Jesus does not do that.
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Jo, the bible doesn't say that you ONLY give forgiveness if someone ASKS, but there is no reason to give it if they don't since forgivness takes TWO people, a forgiver and a forgivee. The purpose is reconcilation, not just to make one feel good. God does not forgive people against thier will who do not want it, and doesn't expect us to either. Here is a good article that explains the principle and purpose of repentance pretty well: Repentance By P. G. Mathew, M.A., M.Div., Th.M. Copyright © 1995 by P. G. Mathew What is repentance? Let me read to you from the Westminster Confession of Faith, a document that comes to us from the seventeenth century: "By [repentance] a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God, purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments. . . yet [repentance] is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it. As there is no sin so small that it deserves damnation; so there is no sin so great that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly" (Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter XV, sections II, III, IV). Now that is a good biblical explanation of repentance. Now in the Old Testament the word that is used is shoov. When you read Psalm 80, in verses 3, 7 and 19, there is this prayer offered to God: Turn us, turn us, O God, that we may be saved, or, restore us, that we may be saved. In other words, the word shoov in Hebrew means to turn - to turn from sin and turn unto God. So the heart of repentance is turning. In the New Testament you have the word metanoia. Now that speaks about a radical revolutionary change in our thinking, resulting in a change of our understanding of reality, a change of values, a change of goals, a change of purpose and a change of relationships. In other words, repentance is a revolutionary idea. Now, repentance is a necessary prerequisite for salvation. No person can be saved without true repentance. When you look at John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus Christ, and see how he preached, we read in Matthew 3:2, In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the desert of Judea and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." When Jesus Christ began his ministry, we read in Matthew 4:17, From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." And the apostles also preached repentance as a necessary condition for salvation. You find that particularly in the preaching of the apostles in the book of Acts. For example, in Acts 17:30 St. Paul preached, "In the past God overlooked such ignorance but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." And after his resurrection and glorification, Jesus Christ himself spoke to the churches in chapters 2 and 3 of the book of Revelation. In chapter 2, verse 5, we read, "Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first." Repent! Repent! Repent! Without repentance there cannot be any salvation. There cannot be any restoration of our relationship with God. Repentance is part of the gospel. Jesus told his disciples after his resurrection in Luke 24:46-47 that they must preach repentance and forgiveness of sins to all the nations. So we need to ask the question: What is repentance? There is an idea of repentance that is not true. It is called attrition. It is a superficial and false repentance. It is a repentance that is self-focused and self-centered, such as when a mother sees the hand of her child in the cooky jar and then all of a sudden the child repents. The reason for that "repentance" is that he is afraid of punishment. So attrition is fear of punishment, or fear of losing a blessing. It is a false form of repentance. It is self-centered repentance. con'd at: http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~gvcc/radio_trans/repent.html
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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To me, it depends on if you are a Christian or not.
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My reply: No, Jesus does not live with a spirit of unforgiveness - because he has offered the forgiveness. It is up to others to accept it.
If I fail to do offer it- or be willing to forigve - If I hang on to the hurt and bitterness and hold a grudge- then I am wrong-
Jesus does not do that. This is the point I have made all along. Jesus is WILLING to forgive everyone, just as we should we willing to forgive everyone.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I have some thoughts on this, but it's too late at night for me to express them coherently.
I do believe that we be open to forgiving.
Do want to say this, though. We can forgive someone without their repenting and asking for forgiveness; but, as far as their salvation goes, our forgiveness of someone for offending us doesn't amount to a hill of beans if they don't repent before God and ask HIS forgiveness.
Actually, in regard to the persons who have grievously offended us and remain unrepentent, I would imagine that many of them couldn't care less about whether or not we forgive them.
"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"
BW M 44 yrs to still-foggy but now-faithful WH. What/how I post=my biz. Report any perceived violations to the Mods.
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I wrote this back in September this year and its still relevant now foe me So many of us here have had and may still do, have difficulty in forgiving a spouse who has betrayed you or if you are a spouse who did the betraying, forgiving yourself.
I have myself struggled with it and I guess I shall in some ways for the rest of my life. But I must strive to forgive myself as my most beloved husband has forgiven me. Even when, perhaps even more importantly when you are righteously so bitter and hurt because of your spouses actions against you, you should forgive them for YOUR sake.
Why am I sitting here in the early morning or late at night, its about 4am here, thinking about this? I reading my H latest letters from Afghanistan as he describes some of what he’s going through and realizing the trust he places in giving this information to me, sharing the horror of war in stark and brutal lines because I asked him to share it with me. I hope I pray it will help me help him on his return God willing. After all I put him through he writes “When I am alone out in the night waiting for ……. to come to me I often think of what a wonderful thing it was to have met you and loved you. I’ll never stop loving you, my darling no matter what happens. “ I have received an act of grace, a precious gift which I’m not sure I deserve, but accept and treasure.
I have spent some long and agonizing times wondering about forgiveness. There are supposed to be two different kinds of forgiveness. The first is a willingness to forgo vengeance, but not to try to repair the relationship. Giving this type of forgiveness is really just plain good mental health for anyone. Its I think the easiest of the two for many. My priest gave a sermon on this and said “Ask yourself how much does your hatred/pain hurt your husband/wife and how much does it hurt you? What will your vengeance, if you ever can find it, cost you? Will it ever be enough? Is there anything you can do to keep the hate/hurt from eating you up except to release it? This type of forgiveness is what allows you to stop letting what someone has done to you to control your life. It does not mean that you have to spare the other the consequences of what they have done. You don't have to like them or even wish them well. The important thing is that you can't forget about them until you have decided to forgive them. “
The other kind of forgiveness, full forgiveness, is much harder. It involves trying to re-establish a relationship, perhaps never as it was, never as it had been, but a new full loving supporting relationship. The thing is though that full forgiveness is only possible if the other party repents and also works to repair what they've done. When you think on it. It’s all pretty standard MB thinking isn’t it? "Forgiveness is a decision not an emotion."
Have you ever heard of Corrie Ten Boom? She was a Christian Holocaust survivor who helped many Jews escape the Nazis during World War II. The Nazis arrested the entire Ten Boom family on February 28, 1944 with the help of a Dutch informant, they were sent first to Scheveningen concentration camp, then to the Vught political concentration camp (both in the Netherlands), and finally to the notorious Ravensbrück concentration camp in Germany in September 1944, where Corrie's sister Betsie died. She had pretty good reasons to not forgive I think. It was she who said, "Forgiveness is an act of the will, and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart. It is those who are able to forgive who are best able to rebuild their lives."
Forgiveness is as much about helping you as it is for those you forgive, even if they don’t want it. YOU are the winner. What’s easier I wonder … forgiving or accepting the forgiveness?
Life may feel as if you are constantly getting kicked on a daily basis, living is about picking yourself up each day and going on and on and on regardless.
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Aussies Wife - Beautiful Lady Clueless - I agree
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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thankyou BK
I still don't know the answer to the question, if there is one. Do I think I'm lucky ? VERY Do I deserve it? I don't know. probably not.
LC is right sadly from what I see here. So many WS just don't seem to care one way or the other about forgiveness. For a long time into recovery so many BS say that they have got no sorry, a meaningful one anyway. sad.
Life may feel as if you are constantly getting kicked on a daily basis, living is about picking yourself up each day and going on and on and on regardless.
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Jo, the bible doesn't say that you ONLY give forgiveness if someone ASKS, but there is no reason to give it if they don't since forgivness takes TWO people, a forgiver and a forgivee. The purpose is reconcilation, not just to make one feel good. God does not forgive people against thier will who do not want it, and doesn't expect us to either. IMHO, you are required to forgive even if someone does not ask. If you do not, then how can you "Love thy neighbor" when you harbor resentment and anger? I feel it is also required from the following passages in the Bible: And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." (Mark 11:25) "Peter came to Jesus and asked, 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered, 'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times (or seventy times seven).'" (Matthew 18:21-22)
grindnfool M-13 years D-Day 10/26/06 Divorced 11.2007 DS-16, DD-9
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Big K is correct in my opinion
forgiveness is a process
and it BEGINS with accepting God's forgiveness (edit to add: which is a daily occurrence, by the way)
so, in that spirit, I think the suggestion of going to confession was an excellent one
having said that a process proceeds somewhat organically in situations such as adultery
and individual readiness must be respected as an integral part of that process
personal beliefs mixed with past personal experience is the timekeeper as the process of forgiveness unfolds
I did this at my own speed as do we all
Pep
Last edited by Pepperband; 12/31/06 08:44 AM.
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I agree that forgiveness is a choice that we make everyday. By not indulging our spirits of vengence and anger, we create a sense of peace within.
As we grow in peace, we allow forgiveness to sow. It is defintely a process that must be worked. I MUST believe that this will return me to sanity.
So I work my process of forgiveness everyday. Not just for myself but for my children's future.
My dreams of growing old with WH have been replaced with those of sharing special family events in the future with my children's father. My 2 darling daughters deserve to look forward to these occasions w/o the fear of mom and dad being in the same room.
Michelle
me BW - 32
WH- 32
Married 6/01
EA 10/01 turn PA 2/02 (denied for 4 years)
ONS 5/02
DD 10/03
DD #2 3/05
D-Day Jan 06
EA #2 1/06
turned PA 5/06 ???
WH moved out 7/06
WH moved in w/OW 10/06
Divorce date 1/07
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Lots of agreement here this morning. Where's Mel to stir the pot? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
An aside...I wonder if some of our difference of opinion on this issue is doctrinally based. I was raised Catholic, and I am in the forgiveness is a gift we offer/with or without repentance camp. I *believe* this was true of believer as well (if this isn't an accurate description of your belief, B, my apologies)
Wondering if those who view the issue differently might be more evangelical...?
Hope I didn't just set of a bomb, here.
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