Alright, so I am pretty much convinced he is still seeing her. I questioned him about the phone call again and basically said, "Why don't you just tell me the truth? It's going to come out anyway." His response, "No. I'm not telling you anything anymore."

Sorry, a little bit more of my story is that he has already threatened leaving multiple times. The first time he only mentioned leaving and then quickly changed his mind within the same conversation. It was on Nov. 26, after DDay2 (11/24/06) he was upset because I had emailed a letter to the OW's sister just letting her know that they had still been seeing each other and to keep her accountable...it was actually a very nice letter...honestly! He was upset because I caused more pain for the OW, because it might cause her to be kicked out of the house...she was told to stop having the relationship with a married man or she would be kicked out. The first time he actually said he was really leaving was 12/4/06 because her sister emailed me wondering if I knew where my H was the day before because her sister had been gone all day. I had told her I could only account for part of the time he was gone--but the times overlapped. Her sister told her aunt (who is actually like their mother---but she actually was an OW and broke up the marriage to take the mom's place) and she called my H that night to yell at him. He said I had broken my promise to stop emailing her family and so he was leaving. He says I should have trusted him and that he wasn't really seeing her. In response, I told his brother and his best friend, who had no idea and my parents as well. Long story short he changed his mind. He said he wanted to work things out and he really hadn't been seeing her and he wasn't going to be seeing her anymore...i had believed this to be true...stupidly, i am starting to think now... The second time was on 12/11/06. I had stopped by the university to have lunch with him---he called right as I was pulling in and he said he was already at the food court. I took this time to check his empty office before I met him lunch. (He has a very private office with a couch--it is where the sexual part of the affair occurred) He must have sensed something, because he caught me snooping through his stuff..in hindsight, i should have just told him i was going to snoop. Well, I found two sweaters and a scarf that the OW had given him for his bday in nov. Long, long story short, I tried to take it, he got so upset he physically wrestled me (he was never physical before the affair) for it, took us in the car driving crazy, bent my car key in half and eventually said he was moving downstairs to the guest room. It lasted only a couple days as we had company come to visit that week and they needed the room. He started acting apologetic, but it took him almost a week before actually verbally apologizing for the physical part of it---he says it was my fault for trying to 'steal' his stuff. He eventually said he wasn't seeing her and he was going to stay in the home...but that he didn't have to be happy about it. This is when he said all that stuff about him being forced to act like a father and a husband, where he said he cares about me but i don't make him happy, that i probably would eventually. I told him he was welcome to leave anytime he wanted if that was his desire. No one is forcing him to stay here. He says he wants to stay, but do his own thing. 12/12/06 he saw her to supposedly only to get back the phone he had bought her.

That brings us to today...i am 99% positive they are still in contact with each other...the 1% is because i don't have the physical evidence...yet.

In terms of our son, he has generally been uninvolved in the kids lives, but has geared his frustration toward our son. He does have his good moments and he seems to enjoy him from time to time, but there has never been any real bonding. He seems to blame him any time the kids argue with each other and immediately thinks it's his fault and not hers. Although, because he hardly spends time with them, he doesn't have the opportunity to be mean (or good, for that matter) all that often. He started becoming more and more uninvolved when our son was born. Previously, even if he may have felt the way he says he feels, he never expressed it.

Okay, spoke to an attorney yesterday...a good Christian attorney who also has a master's in theology... just to get an idea of what might happen if we filed a legal separation. Apparently, I would have to get a job..a full-time job...which I am a bit apprehensive about...not being there for the kids, and yeah, i have my BA, but who wants to take someone who's been a stay-at-home mom for 10 years? ...Apparently the judge won't really care if he had an affair, CA is a no-fault state...did you know that there are death penalties for adulterers in other countries--maybe we can change that here -hah! JK?....yeah, he has to pay me stuff, but most likely it might not be enough if he were to move out. His advice was to get my master's (before all this started i had already had plans to possibly obtain it next year) basically use him to further my education, wait a bit,allow the kids to get older and then dump 'his sorryass'...his words, not mine... In his practice, he says he has seen that the children actually suffer less damage to their psyche if the father is still in the house, even if he's not 'really' there. He did tell me that it is my right to check up on him and all that stuff and that i should, i have every right to demand he stay faithful...but at the same time he seems to think that i should get all i can before i enact the ultimatum. Basically he put a practical financial spin on things, and told me to kinda play a blind eye to the affair, and keep him accountable in the sense that he doesn't know that I know, and focus on myself.

So this is weighing on my mind....i can honestly maybe tolerate him not being a good husband...if and only if it will cause less damage to the psyche of our kids. Here is my dilemma....i know some say because of their parent's divorce and their bad father, they have problems....others say because their father was a bad father in the home, they have problems.....which one is worse? i can allow him to be distant and provide basically only financially and i can pretty much take care of them, with him seeing them on saturdays and sunday mornings, but is that causing them to think that it is okay to treat their own kids that way? ....is it damaging them for the future? ...or is that false sense of security okay for them so that they won't have to worry about something so huge and traumatic....at least not for now, until i can survive financially or when they are out of the house...

we are still scheduled for the retreat. not sure exactly how that'll turn out especially since he's most likely still seeing her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I would go to the MB weekend, just so he gets a taste of it.

Then I would take your attorneys advice and go back to school ASAP.

Meantime, you can attempt to work on the marriage. I would also see a family counselor with the kids, if he won't go.

okay, just confronted him, i tried as much as i could, i could not 'fake it'. i told him i knew he was still seeing her and he admitted it. he basically would like me to let things go until he can sort it out. hah! He doesn't know what he wants.
what is my next step? I wonder if the retreat will do any good. Should we still go on the retreat? Should I tell him to move out until then? Or just move into the guest room? What about legally, should we file something...or is that jumping the gun? .....or maybe it'll scare him into reality? ....He still says he'll go on the retreat if I want....as long as I don't contact her sister or work. Remember he has that sexual harassment suit against him which was resolved as long as he had stopped seeing her.... Advice????
THANKS!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Contact his sister and his work.

Wow, really? It will definitely enrage him, especially since I had already said I wouldn't. He'll say I'm going back on my word...I probably shouldn't have said that I wouldn't. I do fear losing my only bargaining chip. As it stands he says he will go on the retreat... won't the retreat help? ...or it won't make a difference since he's still seeing her? Funny, he actually left this morning pretty calm, probably as not to upset me so I don't expose him...surprisingly I was also pretty calm.

If I expose that the A is still ongoing to his sister and work, what is my next step???

He most likely will not want to go on the retreat...the last two times he said he was leaving involved me contacting her sister. ...but he keeps saying he'll stop...but he hasn't...I don't believe he's going to stop now even if I expose it--again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Is it better to get him upset knowing it's going to cause him to want to leave or wait until after the retreat in two weeks so that at least he attends the retreat?

thanks

If you go to the retreat and then expose him, you will really be going back on your word.

Right now he is blackmailing you.

Hopefully some experts will come along quickly. But I would expose them now. Yes, he will be furious. They all are. But your marriage can get over him being furious. An affair is much more dangerous.

wow, okay...hey, do you know if i can get a refund for the retreat?..i'll look...

...what about the next step? after exposure...i'm pretty sure either he'll say he's leaving or say he'll say he'll end it...i doubt he really will, most likely he'll say he'll end it...and won't. what should i do afterwards?

Wait. Change your thread title. Ask for some of the experts to look.

When is the MB weekend?

Soon?

~ Marsh

Never mind, I found it...

MB Weekend this January 26 and 27...

It's a tough call.

I think you should Expose!

~ Marsh

okay, for now...i suppose i'll wait to expose.

should i ask him to move into the guest room for now? i don't know if i should allow him to sleep in the same room...what do you think?

thanks, -DW

BTW, thanks believer fo the new thread...really appreciate it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Expose now Please. Yes he will be mad but the only thing worse than making a bad promise is keeping it. You have to kill the affair to have a chance. Your marriage can survive his anger but it can't survive an active affair. Kill this thing dead now.

Okay, please tell me benefits of waiting and benefits of exposing.

...and if I expose, someone please tell me exactly what the next step would be...I know he'll be furious, but then do I start the process of kicking him out...or what? I doubt he'll end it--he hasn't already. I know once I do, emotions will be flying and I might not have a chance to ask all you wise ones for advice...I'd like to get a game plan going. thanks!

there are no benefits to waiting.

When he blows up you say sweetly that you want your marriage and that you love him.

You start doing a good plan A.

You do not apologise for trying to save your marriage.

See Pep's Plan A link in my signature below.

Hmmmm, I might be contradicting some of the pro's here ...

I would say Plan A like CRAZY between now and the retreat, show him what he's working for. Then the retreat can how him how to get it.

THEN, if that doesn't work, THEN I'd consider re-exposure. I think I'd wait on the re-exposure right now. The fact that he's going to the retreat with you seems like he's closer to re-committing, and I think they can get the basic concepts across to him better than you can.

Maybe someone whose been to one of the retreats will chime in to help....they might have the best idea. I think LousyGolfer was a FWS until he went to the MB Weekend .... can you call out to him?

-AmI.

Alright, I think maybe I'll have to be creative in exposing. Maybe there is some way I can expose without contacting her sister or work, making it so it comes out without direct contact from me.....

You really got yourself in a pickle when you promised not to expose if he went to the MB weekend with you.

My concern is that right now, her parents have confronted her about the affair, his employer has confronted him, legal action has been apparently dropped (on condition there is NC).

So now, if you don't keep up on the exposure, they have several more weeks to recover, and get their ducks in a row. Just the fact that he is taking such HUGE chances with his marriage and job shows how addicted he is.

If you go to the weekend, then he can claim he did all he could to save the marriage, and it was doomed anyway. He will spin it so that he made a great effort and all this had nothing to do with the OW.

I think you might want to spend more money to call the Harleys and get their opinion.

I agree with Believer

DesireWisdom, your best chance of saving your marriage is to EXPOSE the affair. Exposure will devastate the affair. Your H knows this, which is why he is blackmailing you into silence by promising to go to the retreat with you. Hwoever, he has no intention whatsoever of working on his marriage there, his only goal is to PROTECT HIS AFFAIR by shutting you up.

And that is exactly what you will be doing if you DON'T EXPOSE. You will be enabling his affair at the expense of your marriage. You are very worried about losing your marriage and having to go back to work. The affair is the GREATEST THREAT to your marriage. Not his temporary "anger," and not missing a MB weekend.

If he is ever really sincere about recovery, he will go to a MB weekend, without blackmail strings attached. But, he is not sincere. He is only sincerely blackmailing you into silence, at your OWN EXPENSE.

Expose the affair, DW. You have MASSIVE POWER in your hands to help yourself and your children and you are not using it.

So it seems I should expose the affair. Okay. Just how and when to do it....and what to do afterwards. This is the third time...he still has not ended it. How long do I do plan A? I'm getting soo tired of this...

I am considering asking him to sleep downstairs tonight. I really don't feel like continuing plan A tonight... Don't worry, I will be civil and not yell, but I just don't feel like showing him much emotion, positive or negative, tonight. Do you think this may be destructive? ...I'd be willing to allow him to sleep in the same room, but can I just not be responsive to anything tonight? Advice?

Do I really have to keep up with plan A until the retreat?...that is, if he even goes once I expose it again.

Once I expose, I know he will get upset and most likely not go on the retreat. He didn't really want to go in the first place. It will be an excuse not to go. Does this mean he has no real desire to mend the marriage? In that case, do I continue with plan A...when do I start plan B?

In response to contacting Dr. Harley and asking him...I will look for the link to contact Dr. Harley (do you mean S. Harley that does phone counseling?)...do you think it might be possible to get Dr. Harley to have a quick response since we are registered and retreat participants have access to the private forum? ...if not, I'll look for the link. thanks.