Alright, so this morning he woke up in a fairly okay mood. Nice talking, although I was a little short in the beginning...I checked myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Back to last night...One minute he says he's leaving, another he's not sure. His reason he says for leaving is not because of OW (he doesn't know if he even wants to date her if he leaves) but because of us. He says it's not about her anymore...it's more about me and how he didn't think I would ever be out to destroy his life. (Hmmmm....what has he been doing to me and the kids???) He didn't think I could ever do what i did...(yeah, ditto) I did reply that I wasn't out to destroy it, but to save it.

He did say though that he thinks he could probably be happy either way. If he leaves, he can be single and do whatever he wants. If he stays, he says he'll eventually be happy...and he part of him doesn't want to give up what we've worked so hard for--financially and as a family). He says he knows people think he's crazy for even thinking about leaving...he keeps saying he knows what he did was wrong...but there's always that 'but'...what i did... He says i'm too good for him...and then he lies to me....aaahhh!

What is his deal?! Is he eventually going to become 'normal' again???

When is this going to be over?!?!

oh, by the way, he says he contacted OW yesterday and they met so that he could tell her not to contact him anymore. He says he told her he didn't want any more problems and to stop contacting him. Hmmmm....

How sweet. My WH met with OW in a motel room to tell her that they couldn't have contact anymore.

Then after he stood up in church to ask for prayers for our reconciliation, he had her over to his bed to tell her that they couldn't have contact anymore.

Your husband is spouting the typical stuff that we have heard time after time on these boards.

The only thing he has right is that IF he has no contact with the OW, things can be much better in his life and marriage and he will be happy again.

that's really cute. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

DW, are you going to expose this affair?

Last night the OW's father asked to meet with us (he lives out of the country but visits about once a month). So we met with OW, OW's sister to translate (father does not speak English), WH and me.

It actually went pretty well. OW's father promised me that OW would stay away and said I could call him anytime if OW did not stay away. He did not approve and does not believe WH should destroy his family for a teenager...and as it turns out, OW has already found another boyfriend as is on with her life. Funny though, WH is extremely upset....with ME! He proceeded to tell them that OW may have been the cause of our problems but not the reason for us breaking up---he then proceeded to tell them how awful our marriage was (huh? first i heard...unless he meant now). I told them it is true that she is the cause, but now not the reason because obviously she is on with her life, he is on with his life, but it has left us unable to communicate and we have hurt each other so much with the lying and disrespect that I don't know if we'll be able to rebuild. He proceed to tell them when (yes 'when'...he told them he was going to 'try' at the retreat, but most likely he was going to leave) we break up that he was going to call OW and if OW's family was going to be okay with that. Of course they wouldn't. ...but see, here's the clincher. OW herself said that she didn't want to see him...maybe she said in 2 or 3 years...but she was on with her life. OW tried to tell him that but WH actually snapped at her to ask her father if that would be okay. OW's sister started getting upset at WH, but actually OW and I said it probably wasn't going to happen and if it does we'll deal with it then. Just prior to the meething, WH had been upset with me again for the email and kept reminding me that HE was leaving...I just kept saying okay, if that's want you want....so I think he was trying to hurt me by telling me he was leaving me in front of them. Funny though, he was kinda more making a fool of himself.

So then OW's father wanted to talk to WH alone, so OW and I took another table and talked. We just small talked...basically me asking about her college life....and wow, it occured to me then that she really is only a teenager! Even younger than some of my friend's kids...I kinda actually felt a bit sorry for her...and my WH--what is going on with him that he actually fell for a teenager?

Don't know what WH and OW's father talked about...although I'm pretty sure he was trying to convince them that he was going to contact her after our marriage was over...OW's father was trying to give advice about what was important in life--kids, wife, family...but WH is stubborn.

Even OW and I joked that they were going to be there forever since WH was so stubborn and prideful. They talked for about 40 minutes before we stopped them.

I actually felt some closure after the meeting. True OW could have lied about boyfriend, but she had showed me her cell phone bill to prove she hadn't been consistently calling him and I saw she was calling somebody numerous times a day...btw, she talks so much! About 15-20 calls a day!

Anyways, I guess I was pretty pleased with the meeting, but WH was not. He was so focused on what I had talked with OW about and about her new boyfriend. I said we just talked about her college life and I didn't really ask about the new boyfriend, I didn't think it would be appropriate. He wanted a minute by minute replay. I didn't ask what they talked about.

Well, WH was annoyed that I was so pleasant afterwards. He kept saying it bothered him that I was so smug and reminded me that he was leaving. I just said okay....with a smile. Maybe I shouldn't have been so smug, I really didn't mean to be. I was just pleased and felt closure knowing she was on with her life... True, she may be desperate enough to date a divorced man with two kids, but I think she came to realize that it probably would be too much trouble. Besides, her neediness already prompted her to find another guy. I doubt she'd be too popular with the college crowd if she went public that she was dating an almost-40 year old divorced guy with two kids...

Well, that is the update for now...

Funny, we are still going to retreat, but I am definitely going for me...even if 'we' don't work out, I'm looking forward to learning something about relationships. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One more thing, WH had made them promise that the 'crazy aunt' not call him. The 'deal' was no contact between families. Well, 'crazy aunt (CA)' called him numerous times today to yell at him. He wanted to call her back and yell at her and said, now he gets to contact their family. He was acting irrationally. I did get him to calm down by saying CA wants him to call back so she can yell at him in person. I finally convinced him to ignore the calls, but I don't know how long he'll last. She keeps calling telling him to pick up. He's getting emotional and wants to yell at her back. I told him he could contact OW's sister and tell her that CA is calling, but not OW. ...do you think that's okay? Or should we just completely ignore it and not even tell OW's sister that she's calling?

I would ignore all the drama. WOW!!!! That is very good news. Thank goodness there are still some good families left! I do believe that OW has a boyfriend, otherwise your WH wouldn't be so angry and wanting information. So I don't believe it was just a set up.

This has sure been a hectic week for you!! But things are turning out much better, and very quickly. Your husband will be withdrawn and angry for awhile, but your marriage can survive that.

Hope things stay on course for the MB weekend. You will have a lot to talk about.

Thanks especially to B and ML, and to LG, C, M, Owl, Sdg, HB; to LH, AmI, BK, HbC, T, all of you who have helped me to get to this point--and told it to me straight when I needed it...and told me to stop acting with emotions and instead with actions and purpose.

I can hardly believe we're making it to MB Weekend this weekend. Phew! It's finally here and I thank you for your help.

I find each one of you a HUGE blessing in my life and even reading your posts to others is so encouraging. I can see that God has used each of your stories and experiences to help others--thanks for being willing to share your wisdom with others--It is such a blessing. Thanks!

Well, just a quick prayer request for this weekend!

Hopefully this will be a turning point for us and this will begin the success part of our story.

Gosh, I could only hope to be an 'expert' someday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm so excited that you are actually going to MAKE IT!!!!!

There is still a long road ahead, so rest up for that.

Alright, so we made it to the retreat. First off, Dr. Harley and his wife are great, personable and full of wisdom. It really was great and I did learn a lot...actually, I can see how WH had the affair...we were living two separate lives...and my fault in it...i could see how i wasn't fulfilling my end of the bargain making him feel loved and cared for....

That being said, no matter how wise the person giving information is, if you aren't willing to learn, you aren't willing to hear and accept it.

My H spent the entire weekend complaining about his ear...true, he was in a lot of pain. He ended up getting an ear infection and possibly rupturing his eardrum on the plane ride there. So, at 4 o'clock in the morning I took a taxi by myself to the drug store to buy him some medication. Here's the thing...he kept blaming me...it was my fault that I planned the trip, that the plane ride caused his eardrum to rupture.....he says that I went to the drug store only to ensure that he went to the seminar talks rather than I went because I cared for him. Huh??? Of course I cared, that's why I went---that's why I stayed up with him and only got 3 hours of sleep that night....

He continued to blame me the entire time....and then said I was needy...(wait, is he talking about me???) because I was 'clinging' to him and wouldn't leave him alone...and then said I wouldn't be able to survive without him (huh???...how does he think I survive seeing him only several hours a week? true, this is partly my fault...i thought about it and i guess when he was around i acted a bit like the needy wife because i wanted him to feel needed...i didn't realize that that was the impression i was giving...who moved 50 lb bookcases upstairs by herself (well, with 10 yr old DD) because H let them sit there for 2 weeks....who put up every picture in the whole house, yes, i have my own tool kit, who unpacked the entire house? (well, i still have a lot to do) moved and put together every piece of furniture...and before we moved--had put together an entire running group with quite a few members, spoke at a church's women's event, have two well-adjusted active kids.....sorry, i guess i'm venting a bit)

[[i guess i'm saying this stuff because my self-esteem has taken quite a beating. i went to grab my booklet to fill out the PHQ and i inadvertently grabbed his opened it to the 'Attractive Spouse' form. He gave me a '1'...and thought i should improve 'physical fitness and weight'...that's why i bring up the running group and speaking at the women's event--my portion of the talk was on exercise and motivation...i wonder if he's being unreasonable or if i have a problem...i workout 3-4 times a week, ran 3 half-marathons last year, along with other 10K and such events...granted I no longer have the body of a 19-yr old girl...is that what he's comparing me too?...or is it just me :| ...]]

but no I didn't complain back....only until this morning...when I finally had it.

So, this is why I'm posting in here rather than the private, because I kinda wanted to vent without unleashing (well, more) on him.

This morning after hearing 3 days of complaining and blaming...and granted I should have just admitted it was all my fault so that he would stop--but I just couldn't 'cause I didn't see how it was my fault his eardrum ruptured--- newayz, i kinda blew up at him.

So, yes, I did an angry outburst---a love buster, for sure. I started and I kinda said, well, I already blew it, let me get it all out...I kinda unleashed on what he had...the wife, the kids, the meals (although he was never home in time to eat with us), the house kept, the kids taken care of...how he only cares about what makes him happy...(he said, 'what's wrong with that?')
BTW, if you are reading this, DR. H (although I know you can't respond in the public forum...I might post later in private), my WH was the one who asked the happiness question....about whether or not he could be happy with someone else...your basic answer was to use the techniques to be happy with the mother of your children.... unfortunately, he doesn't see me or the kids as much value in his life right now....

There was a point at which we seemed to be okay...after the last talk we went out to eat and although he kept saying he didn't know if he was going to try or not...we were trying to communicate. Although he kept saying things, like I could have the house and the proceeds from our rental property that is on the market if he left. I kinda ignored the comments...don't know if that was good or not. I tried to focus on the positive.

[One more thing...there might be a possibility he's had other affairs that i didn't know about...he stated, 'see, i'm a born liar, why would you wanna stay with me?'...it kinda got me thinking...Dr. H mentioned a born liar was someone who lived a double life, not one that just lied to cover up an affair... i kinda brought up that i thought he had an affair a while ago and i named a specific time about 6 years ago when i suspected something and he didn't deny it. He didn't admit it, but he didn't deny it.]

At one point he did say if he did follow through with the program that it might work....and that it probably would work...he just didn't know if he wanted to.

well, long story short, i did end up saying i was sorry i blew up and if he didn't want to do the homework i wasn't going to force him.

He did say if i put the cd's on an mp3 player he might listen to them...so i will...hopefully he'll do the rest of it too...

Gosh, i'm gonna need some motivation...and who do i vent to? now, my WH knows of these boards...i did find out he didn't know of these before...or at least he didn't know i posted (or is a good actor)...but he might now... oh well...

Well, i'll be doing my homework...as much for me as for him...wish me luck! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ...or i should say endurance!

LOL. Sounds like the weekend from H*ll. I was picturing a nice, peaceful weekend away, with the two of you talking about things.

You sound like me in my marriage (now divorced), I did everything. Not really because I wanted to, but ex absolutely refused to lift a finger. And I did try admiring him, but sadly, he didn't do much to admire around home.

I would just continue venting here. I doubt your husband will even bother checking. My ex has known of this site for over 3 years, and has never posted or read.

It's good that you can now post on the private part. You will get the best advice.

Thanks, b, that is my problem--admiring him...hopefully within time, it will come. As you know, my huge obstacle is with the whole 'I don't wanna be a father' thing. He didn't even want to call them all weekend. He said I could call if I wanted, but he didn't care to talk to them. I do think I will eventually ask Dr. H if this is going to change or not...perhaps the hours of family time will make him desire his children as well...if only he would do it...

How was his relationship with HIS father?

Awful. His father was an alcoholic who finally got sober (forced sober) in the last year of his life and then had a relapse that killed him. We didn't even know he was sober until the relapse. WH says because he turned out fine without a father, his kids will too.

When we were dating he said he had wanted 3 kids. So, I brought up that fact and he asked me if I felt like he tricked me. YES! I said. He stated, "Why...why can't I want kids and then realize that I no longer want any. I don't like kids, they're annoying." AAAHHHH! Even as I write this, it is infuriating! I honestly don't know if I can over this if it doesn't change.

Of course, he DIDN'T turn out just fine. You will need to get some family counseling for this.

Kids can be annoying, but they do grow up. Also not everyone is cut out to be a parent. Thank goodness you are a good parent.

Don't worry too much about his attitude. He may be starting in withdrawal. They are not very pleasant during that.

I know he didn't turn out fine...he just can't see it. And I can no longer tell him that he didn't because he sees it as a disrespectful judgement. According to him, I am self-righteous when I say that what he has been through was hard and no one could go through it and not have any problems. I know I have problems too, but apparently he doesn't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> although, he keeps says he knows the affair is his fault, he knows it...but now i think he's just saying that so i won't bother him about it.

I really hope that this is all part of the withdrawal and 'craziness' of a WS...i don't know how much more i can endure.

I'm very hopeful. The two of you have made it this far, and now you have expert help. Your husband is going to have to be willing to work on the relationship. He won't want to right away. That is normal.

Try to hang in there just a little bit longer. I'm sure OW will move on.

Try to meet husband's needs for admiration.

DW...

I hear you. As you know, we both went to that weekend with our spouses. I am sorry to hear your husband is where he is at, as it is very painful to you. And I am sure, somewhere inside him, it is painful to him.

One question I would like to know...are both of you Christians? Have you both been saved?

If you are a Christian, you might want to read the link at the bottom of my post concerning the roles of husbands and wives. In the wives section, there is a big area of talk about how wives bring about change in their husbands.

This program the Harleys have is awesome. At the same time, there are differences between men and women, as Dr. Harley talked about. God tells us how He made us...that we approach change differently (men and women).

I think as you move forward, you might want to take the approach outlined in this link. You shouldnt LB...you shouldnt "go off" on him. I understand why you did and now how much he is hurting you. But you really will never get what you want venting on him.

But, you also dont need to just sit there and be quiet. There is a way to "force" him to take on his responsibilities. Which includes being a husband and father. But, you have to trust that if you do your part, God will do his.

Your husband needs to do this with you. Hoping he will do it if you MP3 it is wishful thinking. Sit the man down and schedule the time with him. If he refuses...then you create a crisis. He MUST do this...it is not an option.

Email Dr. Harley and ask him his opinion on the best route to motivate your husband to do this. I do know, you dont need to make demands, though. You have to do this as a "matter of fact."

"Honey, we have to do our first lesson this week. I see that you have off this Wednesday evening, so I've made arrangements for my Mom to watch the kids for two hours while we do this. I have ordered some appetizers from TGI Fridays and bought a bottle of wine. We can sit and have some food while we do this. I figure we can start at 6pm. Let me know if there is anything else to eat that you might want."

Notice I did not "ask" him. Now that might be a violation of POJA...but there are things that appear to be violations that really arent. If you say he must give up the OW, for example, and he says "no..." then it isnt a violation of POJA to expose. Do you see what I mean? What I am saying is...if he is in the marriage and working on it...then POJA when you will do the lessons. If he is still standing on the fence and saying "I dont know," then you schedule it and be there for that time.

If he doesnt show, then Dr. Harley may advise you to create a crisis and maybe go to Plan B.

This program doesnt ask for him to agree with the principles (although, by what you posted, he does see this program works). It only means that he does the program.

If he isnt willing to do so, to do the work...then Dr. Harley was very clear that this program will fail if the couples cannot complete the program. And the marriages that do so, will fail.

So, the first thing is to lead the horse to water. You did that this last weekend. You may have to continue that for awhile.

Just my thoughts...but you definitely should bounce this off Dr. Harley.

I am Christian, my husband is now denouncing his faith. He grew up in an Episcopalian private school, but his parents only went to church for social reasons....and as stated before, his father became an alcoholic and eventually died to the disease. He was abusive, physically and emotionally to his wife, who was verbally abusive to him and enabled him. He had several affairs. His wife did not leave him until 2 years before his death which was in 2000.

When we first started dating my H impressed me by rededicating his life to Christ at a Harvest Crusade and becoming involved in church. ....but he never developed a realationship with God and I guess I eventually 'let it go'. That is partly my fault...I used to push for us to do small groups together and it happened a couple times, but in the last few years, I stopped pushing him, stopped 'annoying' him and let him do his own thing. My husband is now saying that God is 'no longer for him'. According to our pastor, it seems that he bought into Satan's lies that that the 'grass is greener on the other side' --that the fruit is tempting enough to eat. He has now turned his back on God. He does not want to deal with the gravity of his sin and is now rationalizing everything. Nothing is now a sin...like I have stated before, he has suggested polygamy and other such WS behavior...(btw, did anybody ever find that list of crazy things that WS' say?) His ultimate purpose in life, he says, is to make himself happy...and with money.

I have to say without God, I honestly don't think I could have made it this far. We would already be a divorce statistic. I know God has a plan and testimony out of all this, I just don't know what that is yet.

M, regarding your advice on how to motivate WH, that is actually a very good idea. I will have to try and figure something out...(good idea with the parents, but unfortunately they live too far away to babysit regularly, and since we just moved to the area i don't know of any babysitters yet....BUT no worries...i'll think it out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay, now to your article on 'Roles of Husbands and Wives'......WOW! Seriously God has given you a lot of wisdom and I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think God allowed the trial to occur because He knew you could handle it and be a blessing and help to others through it. Truly, I don't think others might have gone through what you've gone through and handled it with such integrity and strength...although I havent' read your entire story, just from what you've posted on your 'article' thread. :] ...and to Mrs. M....wow, you have a great man there...and by his posts, I'm sure you are a great woman...best of luck to you both!!! ...well, not luck--best of God's blessings to you both <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know, there was a story that our pastor told us once about a successful well-known CEO of a company and his stay-at-home behind the scenes wife. They saw her ex-boyfriend one day, many years later, and he was still a construction worker just like her husband was when they first met. The husband said, "Aren't you glad you didn't marry him?" The wife said, "Aren't you glad I didn't marry him...because then you would still be the construction worker and he would be the CEO." There is that saying that behind every successful man there is a successful wife. Yes, it is funny, but there is some truth to that. I don't think successful wife meant that the wife was successful in the world and her career, because this woman was not well-known and did not have a career....but she was successful in being a wife. She allowed her man to feel 'safe' and created the environment for her family to succeed.

I actually reminded my WH of this story early on in discovery and said I wanted to be that behind-the-scenes woman for him so that he could be great....but unfortunately it didn't take...actually I came across an email in which he relayed the story to the OW and asked her to be that woman for him..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> oh well.....

one comment about the Proverbs 31 woman...we recently were blessed to have Cindi McMenamen visit our church (author of Running on Empty ) and she spoke of a modern-day pefect Prov. 31 woman. I don't have the book, but she was reading it as an excerpt out of one of her books...I'll have to see if I can find it--it was actually pretty funny with technology, kids soccer practices and does anyone sew their own clothes anymore? ...toward the end she asked, does the woman ever sleep??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ...but yes, in spite of the light we make of it, it is true that it is something to strive for....in a reciprocal godly marriage.

Here is my main problem...Doesn't my H know that I would love to strive to be a Proverbs 31 woman for him if only I could trust and feel safe knowing that he loves me as God loves the church. I would gladly be submissive to a man who was willing to give his life for me...

...but, he clearly does not want to be a husband and father in the way that God intended for him to be. I know I should be doing plan A for some time, but how long? It is very taxing knowing that he yearns to do whatever he wants and knowingly selfishishly wants to make only himself happy. He yearns to rebel against society and prove that he doesn't have to follow the rules. He seems to be trying to sabatoge the relationship by disagreeing with anything I say. If I say it seemed like we were fine before (although now I know that living two separate lives is not fine), he says the marriage didn't make him happy. If I say I wasn't 'happy' before either, just complacent, he says he wasn't unhappy...he was fine and wants our marriage to be like it was. He has the mindset of proving people wrong...kinda like when you tell a teenager not to do something, and they do it just to prove that they can't be told to do anything.

I think he is intentionally trying to hurt me so that I'll lash out, kick him out, and he won't have the guilt of leaving on his hands. Here's the problem, it's starting to work....I am hurt and knowing he's saying some of the mean things intentionally to cause a reaction doesn't really help that much. He has betrayed me over and over and over again and my endurance is waning. I need to know the affair is over, but he reacts with such disgust anytime I ask him about specific details of his day, his phone records or require to know what time he'll be home for dinner. I have recently found past evidence of the affair, but it is 'past' evidence...so although we had that meeting with OW and OW's father last week, I am unsure if it's over or he's still deceiving. I cry and scream in moments of alone time, but I am starting to feel weak, emotionally drained, frustrated and angry.

...i guess i will try to focus on the outcome, on the success stories, on what God's will is...God hates divorce...but he does not like WH's sin either...

"I think the single most significant decision I can make on a day-to-day basis is my choice of attitude." —Charles Swindoll

Hang in there, DesireWisdom. Keep reading MM's advice. He is excellent. My goal was always to be more of a Proverbs31 woman. I did submit to my husband, and ended up divorced. But the Lord isn't done with me yet.

okay, so did what MM said...planned a 'date' for Friday night. He replied saying that he never agreed to do the homework and retorted that he didn't like me planning stuff without asking him. I just said kinda said that the kids will be gone, I'll be at home waiting for him. I hope he doesn't stand me up. I said we could start the homework tonight and hopefully get most of it done so we can spend tomorrow having fun...not much of a response back...just reluctance. so....we'll see...

...this is oh so frustrating!!!! man oh man, i don't remember praying for patience...why does God seem so intent on having me practice it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />