OK...more to the story & the plot thickens...
We had MC yesterday & WH was late. He called as I was walking into MC & said he was running about 20 minutes late; it was actually "ok" & gave the MC & I a chance to catch up on the last 6 weeks.

The 3 most important EN for me in that last session were:
#1 "I Love Yous"
#2 Daily phone calls, not "just" informational!
#3 To come back & sleep in "our" bed

The ONLY EN that WH has met was #2. In an entire 4 weeks he did not udder the words, "I love you". I was being pretty stubborn too & wanted him to say it on his own, not to say it "just" b/c I did. After 4 weeks of waiting & WH didn't come up to bat, I bit the bullet & figured that DARN IT, I love him so I will tell him. Since I began that he says "I love you" each time; well, except for one time! When he didn't say it I questioned it. WH said he isn't going to "do" & "say" things just b/c someone asks him to, he needs to "feel" it.

Ok, so MC says to me..."How do you feel when WH says I Love You after you say it", I say "ok", but I would rather that he says it on his own & not b/c he is prompted to. MC says "so it's like saying...thank you & your welcome! Absolutely! So, do I say it now or do I just let WH come out with at some point? WH says he feels it but isn't "in love" with me & that is what makes it difficult for him to say it.

I also tell MC that I think that WH needs to do 2 things. #1 go on AD & #2 get himself into IC. MC agreed completely! Also, stated that he thought that WH didn't really want to be in MC & I totally agreed. MC said that he is there to "please" me & that is a good thing. MC said he really needs to dig deeper into WH, he is unsure what is going on in his head. He is a tough nut to crack! I agreed completely & reminded MC of our first conversation we had when I was interviewing him, I reminded him of my comment about HE (MC) being "up to" the challenge of US, he remembered & said he was ready for the challenge!

So we had a few more minutes to talk b/f WH came & MC asked me how I have come this far, no intimacy in over 13 months & WH "not" sleeping with me for the last 3 months. I told him "darn good drugs"! he/he Not really & not too sure what is holding me together anymore. I love WH, not "giddy in love" but I love him & care very deeply for him! Not sure how much longer I can hold out though.

WH came in & we began our session. MC asked how he was feeling lately about our situation. WH said he felt a little better but not great! MC said what was a little better & WH said that we were getting along much better & spending more time together and that things were ok. MC asked WH if he was still involved in IC. WH said, "it is funny that you ask that question" b/c he was just thinking that morning that it was probably necessary for him to get back into IC. WH said he wasn't too pleased with his other IC & thought that he should begin speaking with our MC on an individual basis. MC loved this idea (ha/ha) & told WH that it was great! I also piped in & said the same thing. So we all finally sat there & agreed on a very big milestone.

MC asked if we should put MC on hold & begin with WH in IC or should we continue & just offset the appt. I said I would rather continue with MC so we did not loose our focus & we should alternate, WH & MC both agreed that it would be ok to do that. So WH begins his IC next week & then we are scheduled back for MC the following week.

Marsh,
I know that you were only kidding about the bedroom. I think it will take a lot more than changing the decor to get him back there! he/he I hope that our MC can figure out how to get WH to feel it.

It's funny how you were thinking about us the other night; thanks for that! Yes, OW needed him. Funny thing is, I told him the other day that I didn't need him anymore but I would like him. Back in Aug. as he was deciding whether or not to come home, I told him that I needed him. I wanted to make sure that he understood that now I don't need him but I would like him there instead. I am tired of everytime he came back, he came back out of guilt, I don't want to be blamed for that anymore. I wanted to lift that off of his shoulders. I want him to be here now b/c he wants to be there & wants to make things work, certainly not b/c his frail W needs him!

I can't agree with you more about planning a weekend getaway. I really don't think that we are ready for any of that "stuff", not yet anyhow.

Thanks Marsh.

Hi Karen!

You did an excellent job recaqpping everything on this new thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First let me say that I LOVE LOVE LOVE your MC!!!



THIS IS FREAKING FANTASTIC!!!!!

I'm doing the happy dance here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Smiles all around! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

THIS is a turning point for you guys.



Good.



LOL

Yes, I think of you often. And pray for you too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



That makes sense.

You BOTH need to know that he is choosing to be w/ you b/c he WANTS to.

But, try to look for ways to admire him....his abilities or accomplishments. I have a feeling these are high on his EN list.

Obviously, SF is not number one on his EN list. LOL



Let me know how it goes. If you need a sitter, I'm available. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh

Hey karen, hey Marsh!

Just piping in to say karen, I haven't been keeping up on your sitch quite as much lately, but sounds like you are making slow but steady progress. Kinda like all of us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Marsh ~ how're things going over in your camp? You and H doing ok? Things getting better? I hope the best for you...

Ok, going back to my cave now ~ I mean, back to the Recovery board:) This board moves too fast for me! Pop on over and say hi once in a while....

~MF

Hi there, MF!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My DH and I are doing very well.

We're making plans to celebrate our anniversary next month.

The kids made us this gift for Christmas using lots of pictures of our family over the years and when I opened it, I cried.

On a funnier note, we bought our sons a Play Station for Christmas, and when our 14 year old son opened it, he cried!!! LOL I guess he was happy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How are YOU doing? How were your holidays?

Thanks for stopping by.

((((MF))))

~ Marsh

Hiya Marsh!!

So glad to hear that you and DH are doing well...

What a neat present from your kids. We always give our parents a framed pic of our family for Christmas. It was kind of a hard year for me to do it, but I got it all together and we did it anyways. My mom cried when she opened hers, she knows this has been a hard year for us.

That is too funny about the PS. He must have been pretty excited!

We're doing ok ~ still riding this freaking emotional roller coaster. Man, am I tired of it. I wish there was some sort of a pill or something to make me just forget that this ever happened. I'm struggling with those "nice" images again lately, don't know why.

For the most part, H has seemed to come around in a lot of ways. He gave me some really nice, thoughtful presents for Christmas, that was a first (the "thoughtful" part anyways!). I couldn't wait for the holidays to be over this year. It was a hard year for me. I couldn't listen to any Christmas music, usually I start playing it the day after Thanksgiving. I'm glad they're over.

I've been meaning to ask you: what do you think has helped you and your H so much in your recovery? It seems like you "got it" from the very beginning. So many FWSs don't ~ mine sure didn't. He still doesn't really want to know how bad I hurt from all of this, doesn't want to know how much it just kills me inside that he had sex with someone else. And if I ever do really start to share that with him, he says it makes him feel like I am just rubbing the affair in his face. That he KNOWS he had an A, that he screwed up, and why do I have to keep bringing it up? I don't really question him on the A much anymore because I know he hates it, but now it seems like just telling him how badly I still hurt makes him feel like that too. I don't know what to do. Do you have any words of wisdom???

Sorrky to threadjack, karen! Hope you don't mind too much... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

~MF

I can only imagine how painful those images are for you.

Adultery really sucks.



This Christmas probably meant even more to him b/c of all you went through. He probably appreciates you more than he ever has and tried to show you that through his gifts.

I'm sorry the holidays were so painful for you this year. Were there alot of triggers for you? The music?


I don't know. It's amazing how the amount of time it takes to become a FWW varies among WS.

All I can say, is the A made me nutz. I was in severe emotional agony. I was motivated by PAIN to get through this as quickly as I could. I knew w/o a doubt that it was the A that was hurting me and my M. I NEVER blamed my BH for anything. I owed it all. And when I found this site, I agreed w/ everything I read here. And I took the advice I was given.



I'm really sorry for what you're suffering through.

I believe that if BS can learn to listen to the hurtful things the WS spoke during their foggiest...including listening to them say how much they miss the OP while going through NC, then it is possible for the WS to learn to listen to the feelings of their dear spouses.

WS, should learn mirroring techniques and use them whenever their BS wants to talk about their pain. I just can't believe how much that techniques helps.

Here's a post about how it works that I found on here somewhere...

COMMUNICATION
Frozen1229's Guide to the MIRRORING/VALIDATING/EMPATHIZING Technique:


This communication technique is comprised of three elements -

mirroring/validating/empathizing

The net effect is that it offers an opportunity for both people to have the experience of being accurately heard, validated as worthwhile human beings, and bonded in empathy.

Mirroring - I am listening so carefully that I can mirror back to you what you've just said.

Validating - I affirm you and your right to have these feelings and hold these opinions.

Empathizing - I can enter into your world and feel what you are feeling.

Mirroring

1.) You recognize that you have something you want to share with your partner (it's best to start with something positive until the process begins to feel more natural, at which time you can use the technique to talk about concerns or frustrations).

2.) Begin by thanking your partner for his/her willingness to talk with you.

3.) State the essence of your message. Make it an "I" message and focus on what you see, think, hear, feel, or desire and then STOP.

4.) Your partner mirrors your message back. Mirroring, in this sense, means responding with an accurate paraphrase. If you find that difficult, you can start by mirroring the exact words. The goal is for your partner to repeat your communication without adding or subtracting anything else. When you are finished, your partner asks if the mirror was accurate.

5.) You say, "Yes, you got it" or "No, not quite." If the mirror was not accurate, you repeat your message once again. Your partner then attempts to mirror you again. Repeat Steps 3-5 until your partner mirrors you accurately.

6.) After confirmation that the mirror is accurate, your partner asks, "Is there more about that?" If so, you say it, and your partner mirrors your additional communication accurately. When the mirror is accurate and you have no more you want to say, your partner then says: "Let me see if I got all of that," and then he offers a summary of all he has heard. The summary reflects the substance of what you said, and avoids the tendency to simply respond to the last words we heard.

Validating

This part can be a little tricky. Most people think of validating as synonymous with agreeing. Whether you agree with what has been said or not doesn't matter. You are supporting the notion that "truth" is subjective, that every person is entitled to his or her own feelings and point of view, and that your perspective doesn't issue forth from the center of the universe.

Your partner has valid reasons for seeing the world as he or she does. It's not for you or anyone else to dismiss or demean these views or even try to change them.

Examples of validating statements:

- I get what you are saying, and you make sense.
- I can see how you would think about it that way.
- I absolutely see what you are saying and why.
It makes sense that you...
- I can see that you have given this plenty
of thought, and I can see what you are saying.
- I didn't know you thought about it like that,
but now that you tell me, I can see how that
makes sense.
- I want to understand you better and what you've
just said helps me enormously.

Empathizing

The empathetic message is:

You are not alone. Although I recognize that we are separate individuals, I can feel at least some of what you are feeling.

To get a sense of how important empathy is, imagine an interchange where your partner accurately mirrors you, and states your right to have your feelings, but is dead to any empathetic understanding of what your experience has been. This encounter would make you feel alien and alone.

Impairment of this capacity causes a bigger gulf between two people than an impairment of language. Two people who speak different languages can still connect through their ability to put themselves in each other's place.

There is no need to be defended or ready for battle. Instead, the sender thinks, "Oh! My partner understands and is sympathetic. I guess I don't need to brace myself for the onslaught or push harder to get my point across. I am being seen and heard. I'm not alone."

Specific ways to express empathy to your partner:

- After listening to you, I am feeling
your (sadness, anger, happiness) and I
am feeling (sad, angry, happy) , too.
- I can imagine that what you've told me makes
you feel (sad, angry, happy). I'm so
glad you told me about it.
- I really feel like I can feel where you're
coming from now. Thank you for sharing this
with me.

This would then involve switching places.

Thanks so much to Frozen for creating this valuable and wonderful guide!

Maybe you could print it out and ask your H to do it w/ you?

~ Marsh

Marsh,
Thanks for the feedback. I told my MC that you thought he was great! He says he needs to come up here for a bit & check everything out.

I do try to admire him, lots! He said he got a very nice compliment on the job that he is doing right now (from the owner of the house) & I told him that I would have not expected anything less. He is a perfectionist, big time!

Obviously, SF is not number one on his EN list. LOL - WE KNOW THAT! ME ESPECIALLY! YIKES!

WH came home last night in a "really" good mood; that really scares me sometimes! I hesitated to ask if there was still NC, so I refrained from it & decided it best to take his word for it & if there was he would tell me.

In MC I made a mention that I thought that he was only here sometimes just to prove to everyone else that he "really" did try & the wall that is up to protect that! So that when everything was said & done, he would still hold onto the feelings that he has for OW & the feelings that he believes are "true", this justifies & validates everything that he has done. He spoke up & said that it wasn't the case & that if he didn't want to be here, he would have left like he did every other time; he is right! It is just hard sometimes for me to figure out his head!

I am thankful AGAIN, that he is home, he is MC & now that he has taken the step to begin IC too!

Marsh, do you think it was just a "little" easier for you b/c you are a women? Men sometimes are not as strong as women & I think especially in this circumstance?!, they can be truly weak individuals! As I read through MF notes in here it almost felt like my situation at times. I don't know if my WH will ever really "come clean" with things. I think that when this is over, it's over; not to be discussed anymore, moving on with our new life! Don't get me wrong, I did read Joseph's letter & made a copy of it so that someday I could give it to him...but I just don't see him helping me out on that one!

I feel as if my WH will come to grips, fall back "in love" with his wife ((which, I have to note, he is not "in love" with me right now) that is what he told both MC & myself on Wed)), make things "right" & figure out some "old stuff" that needs to be fixed in his childhood etc., but I just don't see him letting me in anymore than what I am right now. Just like the SF, the wall around him, etc. he is a very "closed" person.

One of the comments that he made a few weeks ago, just before the holidays when we were in crisis mode, he told me that he believed that "I" would never get over this! He felt that I will always bring this up in "his face" so to speak. I told him that I believed that he was very wrong in that conclusion. That I am not the type of person to do that & he shouldn't set us up for failure b/f we even begin! I told him that I think he is "dead wrong" & that he will be surprised when we do get to that point! I was very upset over that!

MF, Thanks for stopping by & by all means, threadjack whenever you want! Are you on AD's? & are you still in MC? I can see my WH acting the same way that your is about the A & I'm not sure how I would handle that either! Things are slow, too slow some days! I am thankful that they are progressing though, makes it feel like we are not wasting time here & that something is getting accomplished! I think of you often & don't make it over to the recovery board much, but I will stop by! Thanks again for stopping in.

K

Hi again Marsh ~ and karen!


Yeah, those images are pretty much torture. If I could describe torture, those images would be it. They just haunt me, I don't know how else to explain it. They're so painful. Sometimes they attack worse than other times, sometimes there's a trigger that brings them on and sometimes they just come, no rhyme or reason. I finally figured out that if I fight it too much, they're actually worse. I have to just go with it for a minute, and then distract myself. Guess I haven't been doing that lately, maybe I'm fighting them too hard, I dunno....

Yep, adultery really sucks. Way worse than I ever imagined.


Thanks for saying this, I think you might be right. I HOPE you're right. He just sent me an email saying he is so glad I'm his wife and he wants to make me happy, but that he knows he has a lot of making up to do. I got tears in my eyes. It's been so long since I've heard anything like that; years, actually. I believe he's starting to come around....finally!

I tried explaining to my H why the holidays were so hard this year, and the best I could come up with was that at this time last year my life was totally great; OUR lives were totally great ~ I loved him and he loved me, it was just a good, happy time. I guess I was sad that so much had changed in a year. Not sure why I couldn't listen to Christmas music ~ just wanted to get through the holidays without thinking too much about them. H and the kids even did all the decorating, I couldn't even do that. I did take it all down though because I was so glad they were over I guess.

What do you mean the affair made you nuts? You were in severe emotional agony over what? That you were hurting your H, or that you couldn't be with OM? I'm only asking so that I can maybe get a glimpse into the WSs mind. It helps me so much to try to know what was going on. I know it can be slightly different for everyone, but a lot of it is very similar I think.

Unlike you, my H was in denial that the A was what was killing our M. We were actually IN MC while he was having the A!!! He knew da** well what the problem was. What kind of whacked out thinking was going through his mind? According to our cell phone bill, he would talk to her the whole way from his work to our house to pick me up to go to MC!! WTF was he thinking? That just totally blows my mind.

And again, unlike you, my H has done plenty of blaming me for the A. Maybe not so much anymore, but man, while he was all fogged out, he sure did that alot. I handled it alot better then than I do now. I freak out now if he starts in on that. I can't help it. He continually said and still says that I was "too hard to talk to", that we had "communication issues". Well I felt that too, believe me, I did ~ he was not easy to talk to about certain things either. In fact, he was downright impossible to talk to about a lot of things. That doesn't excuse his A though.

He's gotten better about trying to connect these two things though. The best thing he is doing now is opening up and making it easy for me to talk to him, and not pointing the finger at me. A few days ago he started saying things like "You were so hard to talk to, you know. Can you see that? Do you see the validity in that? I couldn't talk to you about things!" I just shut down when he says that now. It's just so hurtful to hear that, as if having an A and having sex with another woman didn't tell me that I suck and am a piece of sh** wife, now he's going to start pointing out all the other ways I suck too? I couldn't take it and he saw that and tried his best to fix it. It works so much better if he can just LEAD BY EXAMPLE, and THANK ME for being honest, and being easy to talk to. He was a pain in the a** to talk to as well. I mean, really hard. I don't bring that up though, instead I just try to work on myself now, by doing the MVE technique that you mentioned.

And when we do that, things are so much better, by leaps and bounds. We're still working on not reverting back to past behaviors, though; it's a long learning process. We screw up a lot.


Yeah, I listened to a ton of hurtful things while he was all fogged out. He never did complain about missing OW though. He also said he was never in love with her, whatever that means. I asked him a few times and he said no. I'm not sure he woulda told the truth even if he did, however. He's like that.

When he is able to empathize with me and how badly I hurt, things are so much better. I mean, SO MUCH BETTER!!! He's still working on doing that consistently, though. I never really know how he's going to be, empathetic or frustrated and irritated. I just have to take my chances. It's getting better though...baby steps, right?

karen ~

Yes, I'm on ADs, don't know where I'd be without them! No, we are not in MC anymore, H wanted to stop shortly after dday, said the counselor and I just "ganged up" on him, that all those sessions did was remind him of his Big Mistake, and that he thought we would accomplish more on our own. I totally disagreed, but it also wasn't working for him to be there when he didn't want to be ~ of course it isn't going to work when you're NOT doing what the Counselor is suggesting!!! But a couple of months ago he agreed to go back, and we're working on getting back into it now. There's a chance we may be moving pretty soon, though, and at first I thought we'd just wait but now I'm thinking why? We may as well get started now, getting babysitters is gonna be a lot harder if we move.

~MF

Hi Karen!


LOL

You ought to give me his name and number, and I'll drum up business for him...for sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In fact, you ought to consider recommending him on the "How to Find a Good Marriage Counselor" board. That way folks who live near you will go to him.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB14




Doesn't THAT suck?

When you see the man you love happy, you worry he broke NC.

Good for you for refraining, Karen, I don't know how you did it. But, it's probably a good thing you did.

Did your MC address the NC problem? Did he ask H to tell you once in a while that he's still maintaining it?



I'm glad you can laugh about this. Man, I don't know how you can hold on for this long.

I cannot WAIT for the day when you post on here that ROME was finally built!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> LOL



I'm glad you shared this fear w/ him.

And I'm glad he spoke up.

I believe him.



He has his own fears...

I'm very glad he shared them w/ you too.

I know it's tough to hear, but it's very good that you got them out in the open.

I see his telling you this as a good thing. And it is a common fear that many WS feel. I did.



I don't know. I was a pretty weak person to have even had an A to begin w/.

I see many WW that are just stuck stuck stuck in the fog.

I just found out a friend of mine is involved in an A. Trying to reason w/ her is like talking to a pine cone. I'm calling to tell her BH this weekend.



I think this MC is going to be able to help your H w/ many of his demons. I really do. I think he's ready to be helped. And this MC sounds like he CAN help him.

I think you will get a MUCH better H and M when this is all settled.




Karen, I believe that everyone wants to connect w/ someone. It is in our nature to want to.

I find these "closed off type people" to be the ones who LONG to be deeply connected to someone....but they are afraid too. I really believe your MC will help him w/ his fears.

I really do.

~ Marsh

Obviously you made up your mind & there was nothing that was going to change it; tough withdrawals or not! I think there are times that my WH is still fence sitting & still questions some of his decisions. Marsh, did you fall "in love" with the OM?

When our MC asked me how I have done this for so long & how we have not been intimate in 13 months, he actually brought tears to my eyes. It has been a long time since I have cried. I seem to suppress a lot of my feelings lately. It always seems to be "about WH" & his feelings, mine get swept aside.

Do you sometimes just say..."thanks" to your H for all of his support? Are you sometimes so grateful that words can't express? I hope that someday my WH will feel like that. I don't think that I could ever do this for someone else! I think this is the one & only "get out of jail free card" that I am capable of in my life.

Our MC decided that the NC problem was not the biggest problem for our session the other day. I think that he will probably address it in IC, rather than in our MC session. Hopefully he will introduce do it in MC later on.

It's funny that you refer to ROME. My WH always used to refer to it when we were building our house & making plans for all o the "extras", porches, etc.

I don't consider you weak at all, you are my idol. Someone to be strong enough to realize the wrong she was doing & "fix" it, that's very strong to me! Thank you.

Was your friend a supporter of you? Hopefully you can help her, we really should cut down on the amount of people that "have to" travel up here on MB! Good for you, expose, expose, expose!

I think you are on the $$, and I really think that my WH wants his help now! Thank God for this! I am so grateful for this! I am so grateful to have support as yourself.

Thanks again. K

Hi MF,



Gosh, I can't imagine how you get past that.

I guess you let them come, and embrace the pain.

Maybe they are meant to come so that you can feel the pain and heal from this.

I dunno.



I was the most miserable person when I was in my A. I was 'happy' only when I was getting my fix. The rest of the time, I was a dead woman walking.

I knew what I was doing was wrong. I was torn up about everything. My world had flipped over. Everything was upside down and wrong side up. It was horrible.

It wasn't about hurting my H, b/c at this point he didn't know. And it wasn't about being w/ OM. It was about wanting to feel like ME again. Happy, content, loving towards my H and family.

I was reading another thread here today and this jumped out to me...




This was what SH told a WW that she needed to do.

When I found this place, this is what I was looking for. A plan that could set in motion to get all my right feelings back.

I fought the A w/ my mind. It was what led me here. My heart wanted me to go in a crazy direction, but my mind wouldn't let my heart have its way. Thank God.

What Steve said about it feeling like an arranged marriage is true. What I did to try to get back my old feelings DID feel forced....but it worked.

My heart followed right behind my mind, and now they're both on the same page again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here's a link to that post, BTW, it's a great post about a WS finally "getting it". Thank God.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0&fpart=5



Ouch! Yes, I see what you mean. I really understand your POV.

But, MF, you know this isn't true...



Don't you?

The A had nothing to do w/ you.

He was trying to fix something inside himself.


That technique really works.

A bit ago, I was upset about something, and I was telling my DH about it, and proceeded to try to talk me out of my feelings. I asked him if he would please just say XYZ. He said it word for word. And I felt better. He laughed and asked was that it? And I said yes.

The hardest conversations to have are the ones when someone wants to complain about us. A couple of weeks ago, my DD had some things she needed to talk to me about.(Complain about) Normally, I would have gotten angry and shut down the conversation, but this time, I kept telling myself that my DD wanted to connect w/ me, not hurt me. So, I was able to push past my fear and LISTEN to what she said....using those techniques. I didn't agree w/ everything she said, but I was able to understand her feelings and that was REALLY all she wanted from me.



It sounds as though he's really trying to help you.

And yes, even baby steps are a step in the right direction.

Hang in there.

~ Marsh

Yes, my mind was made up, but my heart put up a he11 of a fight.

I had alot of help from a couple of dear women on this board that helped me to clear away the foggy thinking.

I thought I was crazy in love, Karen.

Over the top.

And the intense feelings were what really made me question how 'real' my love was for him. I remember telling him about my concerns that my feelings for him weren't normal. Isn't that funny? He told me that of course they were. And their intensity proved that we were meant to be together. BUT I never believed that. I'd been 'in love' before. And hadn't felt like I did w/ him. I knew my feelings weren't really real....so when I found MB, I was like aha I KNEW these feelings weren't REAL. They are fake. It took me a while to feel their fakeness. (Months after NC) But, my mind believed they were fake.



Awww, Karen, I'm so sorry. You were moved b/c someone understood how deeply you were hurt, right?

Maybe you should take MC on as your IC too. It sounds like he could at least help you talk about your pain.


I believe w/ all my heart that one day your H will thank you, Karen. I really do.

There is just so much stuff that has to be unraveled in his mind that he doesn't YET grasp what you've done for him OR what you have suffered.

But, he will. I believe that.



Thank you, but that really humbles me. YOU have suffered through the worst thing any human being could suffer through and YOU put your hurt and YOUR needs on a shelf so that you could save your H, M, and family. My eyes are filled up just thinking of what YOU have done. I wonder where THAT kind of strength comes from.



She didn't know about my A. In RL I don't talk about it, b/c I'm so ashamed.

I hoped I could talk her out of it, but she is lost in the fog. Talking to her has been so frustrating to me. I KNOW the path she's walking down, I KNOW where she's going to end up, but she can't hear me. And yes, I'm going to tell her H. I hate adultery so very much now.



I'm so happy for him. I know he's going to find the help he's always needed to heal whatever has been hurting him.

Someone said on here somewhere that choosing to have an A was an admission that the WS was unhappy w/ themselves. And it was their attempt to fix it. Once they upset everything in their lives by having the A, they are then forced into counseling to fix the mess they made, but once they get into counseling, they find the thing that has been nagging at them their whole lives. And they come out the other side a much better, happier person.

~ Marsh

Marsh,
I think that my WH really believes that this A "happened for a reason" & frankly I think that I am leaning towards that as well. What do you think that if after 20 years that the person that you always "had a "thing" for" was finally available to you & it all seemed to fall into place? That is what I think is happening here. I try to convince my WH & myself that it was the wrong place at the wrong time & he needs to chalk it up to that & realize the commitments that he made to me supersede the ones that he feels compelled to give to the OW.

I firmly believe that he only has the OW for as long as she needs him to regain her strength to move forward. I feel as if she has only been here for him b/c he fills a void that she feels in her world right now. I've told my WH this & told him this "as his friend", not as his W. Do you think that if it "were meant to be" that it would have happened way before now? Or/ do you think that the death of her H triggered this A to begin b/c it was destined to be at some point? I struggle with this & keep telling myself & my WH that this is all for the wrong reasons, the timing is wrong, therefore it "isn't meant to be".

I think that he truly loves this person. This isn't a person who just one day began to meet his EN, this is someone that he longed to have in his life & now he has been faced with a choice. A choice to leave his W & family for this "finally" "waited a life time for" OW to spend the rest of his life with???

My WH just went up to bed & I so longed for him to do more than just a peck "goodnight", but I wait patiently for my WH to come back to me.

My feeling is...even if this A was meant to be, that's tough! He made his commitments to me & that is where he needs to focus. Too bad for them if they waited 20 years, there was certainly time in between that where something could have happened, prior to us! Am I ok in thinking that way?

I told him in MC that I really was happy to hear that he wanted IC. I told him besides what has happened here, there are many things in our childhood that make us the person we are today & I felt as if there were things he needed to address. He has always felt anger towards his mother for her 4 marriages. One of which was a #3 and she was involved with him prior to her #2 husband's death (WH's father). He really despised his mother for her actions, how she jumped from one person to the next & guess who he has become? I hope that IC helps him with that one!

I like that quote about the WS finding happiness within themselves after all of this; I hope & pray that will be my WH. We will not have to refer to him as the "grump" any longer then!

Marsh, how long have you been around here? I hope that you hang out for awhile, for me! Thanks again. K

I knew that this was what you had thought had happened, but thought you had let go of this idea.



Of course it wasn't 'meant to be'. He married you. He was meant to be w/ you.

People get side tracked sometimes....step off the right path and wander foolishly around in the dark.

Just b/c they've known each other for 20 years doesn't mean they were meant to be together.

Please, don't do this to yourself, Karen.

The A was a FANTASY!



Why do you choose to believe this? B/c he knew her longer than you? So what?

He believed he loved her, like every WS does. But, the FWS all know that it wasn't love.

LovingAnyway suggested that I was attracted to my OM b/c I saw things in him that I had stuffed or cut off in myself. And THAT really resonated w/ me.

I saw qualities in him that I thought I was lacking. But, I've since come to realize that I have those qualities too, but I had cut them off from myself.

OM and I weren't 'meant to be'. 'We' should have never happened. And neither should your H and OW.



My heart cries w/ yours over your H's negligence of you.



If he had committed to her, their A would NOT have been a forever after love story.

It really wouldn't have.

It would have ended the same way all other A's end...in heart break and broken families.

Your H knew this.

That's why he left her.

He knew he belonged w/ you and to you.

And you should believe this.

He's staying w/ you even w/o SF b/c he knows he wouldn't be happy w/ her in the long run.

He knows you are the person he can count on and grow old w/.

He's not certain that he can fix the mess he created, but he's willing to go to MC. And NOW he's willing to go to IC.

Karen, that says SO much!


MY mother was married FOUR times too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />



Yup, I've read how sometimes people will repeat a painful behavior that one of their parents did in order to try to heal themselves.

But, LOOK at how he fought against giving in completely. He has a depth of strength there that he does not yet realize he has.

MC will help him through all this.



LOL

I think he's tired of hurting too. That's why he agreed to IC. And the fact that he has asked MC to do it is even better, b/c he has confidence in him that he will help him.

It's all good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



LOL

I've been here since the summer. And you just try to get rid of me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> We're friends. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


((((KAREN))))

~ Marsh

Oh and MF,



I understand this.

You weren't ready to celebrate.

You are still hurting too much for a celebration.

~ Marsh

Hey Marsh ~

Yeah, I dunno either. I'm not really getting past it, not yet anyways. They're still haunting me. Adultery does really sick things to your mind ~ REALLY sick. And since I (and most of us BSs!!) never ever imagined what we'd do in this sitch, I'm just kind of at a loss as to the best way to "control" them ~ so for now, it's trial and error. Sure sucks.



Sure, my head can say this all day long, till I can say it in my sleep. But my heart is just having a hard time understanding it, when it's been broken into a million pieces, AND he continues to try to point out all my failings ~ which all sound like justification. As in, if you hadn't done (fill in the blank), I wouldn't have felt the need to have an A.

See?

Now, to be honest, very recently he has gotten a lot better. He's been sending me really great emails from work, a ton of really nice, (with a lot of "ILY"s) text messages, etc. He is promising to be the husband I can be proud of again...but once in a while he'll say something not too smart (like what I said before about pointing out all my faults), and I am just so tired of feeling like I suck. HIS ACTIONS ALREADY "TOLD" ME I DO!!!! Whether it's true or not, that's still how I feel when I'm with him. It's lame, because I don't feel like that around anyone else. Other people really seem to like me, for the most part. I've been asked out on dates quite a few times since his A (I threw my wedding ring at him on dday, and we never found it...and men NOTICE this!!!). It was getting to be really hard to be turning people down when NONE of my needs were being met AND he was always reminding me of all my faults.

He's started "Plan Aing" me at just the right time. I'm just hoping it lasts...

And it would be SO helpful if he could figure out and let me know what it was inside of HIM that allowed him to do this. I think we're a looonnnggg ways from that though. We're not even in MC right now, and counseling is the only way I can ever see getting a lot of this cr** figured out.

Are you and your DH in MC?

Thanks for the feedback, Marsh, I really appreciate it. You're cool <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

~MF

Ooops, I think we were posting at the same time, MF.

~ Marsh

I'll be back in the AM to reply to your last post, MF.

I'll say a prayer for you and Karen tonight.

(((((HUGS)))))

~ Marsh

DING DING DING DING!!!!

You phrased that waaaaayyyy better than I did, and I've been trying for over a month now to do my best to explain WHY this Christmas was so lame.

I just didn't feel like celebrating. Simple as that.

~MF

P.S. And what in the heck are you still doing up, girl? Isn't it, like, after midnight for you?!?!?! And don't you have, I dunno, around a dozen kids to get up with and take care of tomorrow morning?!?! (heheheh, j/k ~ I know you don't have a dozen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)...I "only" have 4, and it's almost MY bedtime!! Geez, they wipe me out, those little ones...

LOL, we were posting at the same time again... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okey dokey, I'll look for ya in the morning...have a good sleep!

~MF