Hey sorry for the delay in posting. She apologized for her actions with finding comfort in another man and told me just can't possibly understand what I must feel. However she is only 2 months short of finishing her orientation and training for her job. She works in the OR at a hospital room where the OM is a resident surgeon. We really can't afford for her to quit. My W says she is going to talk to the head nurse to see if she can be scheduled to not work any cases or try not to work any of the same days as him. My sister also works in the same OR, and she has lots of allies so I guess I could find out if anything is going on at work. Through the grapevine my sister found out the the OM has been talking to my W's good friend at work telling her that he hopes my W chooses him. I just wish I could meet this guy in a back alley. He was recently divorced while his wife was pregnant because he was having and A with another nurse in the hospital. It broke up both marriages and now I am afraid it might be a third.

My wife is living at our home now while I stay at my parents. She says she really needs some time by herself because she lost who she was in our marriage. She tried to become a person that only tried to please me. I did not like that person because she acted 80 years old. She would put aside all of her needs and keep them secret and I'm not a mind reader so they went unmet. And when hers went unmet, mine were unmet.

I guess the plan is for me to try to get a transfer to Arkansas for 6 months so I can get out of our house which we both don't like. She wants to get a 3 to 6 month apartment and really work on herself. My fear is I will be out of site out of mine. I won't be able to show her the person I want to be and the husband I need to be for me to be happy.

I tried to make the excuse to myself I wanted a divorce because of the affair. Telling her that the scars she put in the marriage were too deep and could never be forgiven. That is a lie because I just don't know that. But the sexual satisfaction and affection is the thing I have been missing the most and going out 2 times she was sleeping with him? That will be one hard pill to swallow. Especially because I had to snoop to find out and it was after I had told her how I wanted to change because I was unhappy. What I do know is I am going to have a hard time working on our marriage with her in apartment working in the same building as the OM and me being a 1000 miles away in another state with her working on herself and not letting me in on it. Should I file for divorce?


Fred

Sadly when they want "space", time for themselves, or want to work on themselves, it usually means they want to be able to continue their affair unhindered.

It is a mistake to not live together. It is a mistake for her to keep working there.

I agree, I can't continue working on our marriage with those factors. I want her to be open and honest and tell me if she does contact him, but I can't trust her to do that and I am sick of snooping around. I need to be able to focus on other aspects of my life as well. I don't know how to get out of this pickle.

Thanks
Fred

Fred:

I'm back 2 where I was before: I'd get out, if it was me under those circumstances.

You don't even live in the same house or state? It will be impossible for her 2 convince you she's not continuing her A or contact with her 1000 miles away and no agreement 2 quit her job.

If she isn't willing 2 quit, or he isn't, then you know that she ranks your marriage below her job. And it isn't your requirement of NC that's costing her this job, it's her choice 2 have an A.

I'd get out.

-ol' 2long

HERE is a email she sent to her good friends and then gave me a copy.

"This is a hard thing for me to do and say but I am on a mission to be a happier healthier person and I am starting today. I have not been honest with myself and therefore a lot of things in my life have been built on lies, but not on purpose. It started when I changed myself into someone that I was not. This started when I began seeing Freddie four years ago. I really liked him and it was like I was instantly in love with him. So I made all the things I didn't like about him ok and I changed myself to be who he wanted me to be and let him control me. Of course I didn't see this at the time, which has gotten me into the mess that my life has become. I really wanted to be married and have a family and have children so I was so sure that I had found someone who I could make that dream come true with. So I continued rationalizing things keeping my mind on this main goal. Thinking everything would be ok in the end. This was a big huge mistake. I realize it now. Not the whole time we have been together, but for a long time now we have had problems. The part of the problem that I contributed to was not being honest with my self because I was not allowed to be myself. It may have appeared that I was myself but I wasn't. Not the real complete me. I was in a relationship with someone who deep down inside of me I didn't really like at all, keep reading and I will explain why. This manifested itself in different ways in our relationship. But I was not being honest with myself so I did not allow myself to see what the problem was. One problem is that in Freddie's family each person has a lot of influence over the other. And in my opinion they are very dependant on each other in ways that I don't agree with. I just told myself it would be ok- rationalization number one. Well I am not ok with it no matter how much I like these people. Number two-1 absolutely did not and never do want a marriage like the one that Freddie's parents have. I do not at all like the way that his dad treats his mom or the way he treats his family when he is super nice to everyone else including me. So this is exactly what I did not want but let me tell you it is exactly what I got. But I have a lot of pride and I did not want to admit that to anyone especially not myself. I do so many things because of my pride like I have to be this certain way in other peoples eyes because I care too much about what other people think. I think that Freddie's dad has been emotionally abusive to his family and I hate it. But you know that's exactly what Freddie did to me. That's exactly how he treated me. Of course Freddie is a nice guy so is his dad but they are horrible to the one person they should love the most, their wife. But my pride would not let me admit it. So I had to hide it. I wouldn't tell anyone that that's how it really was because of my pride. I was in a relationship where I could not be true to myself I was being emotionally abused by a person who was supposed to love me maybe he really does love me but no way ever ever do I deserve to be treated with such disrespect or abusive badgering blame and belittling. I became a person who was being controlled by someone else out of fear for what I might have to deal with if I didn't just be passive and go along with everything. I was allowing myself to be manipulated, and I am so mad at myself for letting it happen. So I have felt really trapped in something that I did not ever want but I just told myself it would be ok because I wanted to be married and have a family and now I am not ok. I have lost my true self and lived with someone who represented something that I actually despised so of course this is going to manifest in the relationship. But you know, I never ever saw it that way. Now I have to stand up for myself and be who I am and make my own decisions and be honest with myself. This is going to be a long journey but I am going to counseling and I am going to have a much happier and better life because of this. So I started to realize all of this, this past
November. I began realizing I was very unhappy and so was Freddie. I told him I thought we should get a divorce but of course he did not agree so this made a big problem because I do not Like to cause conflict and of course I care way too much about what other people think so I let everyone start taking over my thinking and talked me out of my decision. So we were going to see a counselor for help, help I desperately needed but really wasn't aware of it. The reason I was made to believe was because other people thought I had a deeply rooted problem with intimacy or problem with men in general. Not the case in my opinion. My problem is not caring enough about myself to be true to myself and let other people's opinions dictate my life. But during this time I made another mistake. After I told Freddie I didn't think we should be together I was finding comfort in talking to another man. Someone who I could be myself with and accepted me for who I was. I know this was wrong so I lied about it. But I thought well me and Freddie are going to be divorced anyway so it will be ok. This fact does not make it right. I know that if I really wanted to do the right thing I should have waited until I was not married. But it gets worse. I made the mistake of sleeping with him, two times. But I also lied about it thinking it would be ok because when I made this decision I had made my decision that I could no longer continue with Freddie. So I told myself again that it would be ok. But I know its not. And if I am going to change my life and be able to be honest with myself then I have to be honest all the time. I know I'm only human and I'm not perfect but I have so much pride that I just couldn't bear to admit it. Well here it is for everyone to see. No more hiding... of anything. This is not something I ever wanted to do but you do crazy things when you feel empty inside. This does not excuse my behavior. So I am apologizing to everyone I love and who has ever loved me. I made several mistakes and now I am going to correct them. Honesty is the first step. So did Freddie deserve to be hurt this way, no I don't care how bad he made me feel no one deserves this. And my intent is never to hurt anyone. But I do not deserve to be treated the way that I have been by a person who is supposed to love me. And a lot of things were going wrong between us because I couldn't admit to myself that he is like is dad and I despise that. So why did I ever settle for something I knew I never wanted? Well my best guess is because I chose to ignore it and tell myself it wasn't there, thus not being true to myself, a basis of lies. I cannot say to Freddie that I love him for who he is. I tried loving hime hoping he would be something else, but he is not. You also cannot change for another person. I am a case in point that when you try to do it failure is always the outcome because it is called not being true to yourself. Thus everything is built on lies. Now I am asking God for forgiveness for all of these mistakes, and I am taking the steps to never repeat them. I hope the people who love me can forgive me, knowing I am really trying to do the best with my life. That means being honest with myself and not settling for less than what I want. I don't want to be with someone who is emotionally abusive and who is a replica of what I despise. I'm sorry if the things I have said in this letter are hurtful in any way. But I am being honest now. I couldn't live the way I was living. I would die inside. I also know that what I have learned and the lessons that I take from this situation will help me in every relationship that I have or will ever have in my life. I know this type of honestly may make people think differently of me but this is how it is. God is the one who will judge me, everyone else on this earth are human and all make mistakes too, yet people will judge and I know that. But if I am true to myself and I am happy, other people's opinions don't matter because I am the only one who has to live my life. My life is not perfect, no matter what you think you may have seen before, it was based on me not being true to myself and I was very unhappy. I believe that people who love you want you to be happy. Well everyone, I am getting there and now I am taking the right steps. Please accept me for who I am."

Fred

Wow...that's got to be one of the longest run-on FOG sessions I've ever read...ever.

Personally, there isn't much you can say or do about it at the moment, other than talk with those that matter and make sure that they know the truth (read, more exposure).

But it's nothing more than classic fogspeak...I'd almost suggest someone copy that down as a great example of what WS's say...that's pretty much text book.

Fred:

That letter was chock full of rationalizations, blame-shifts, and revisionist history.

I doubt that her memory of the past 4 and a half years is believable, even. If she didn't love you, she wouldn't have married you.

Regardless, it's pretty obvious she's got a lot of growing up 2 do. Sure, she needs 2 figure out who she is and wants 2 be, but that must include how she recognizes and defines right and wrong, what her integrity means 2 her and her choice-making abilities.

Nowhere in there did I hear her say anything about reconciling with you, going NC on her OM, or divorce for that matter? If it's there, it's not clearly stated.

What do you want 2 do, first? You obviously can't control her (you really don't want 2, after all, you want her 2 recognize that she's the sole source of her own control - always has been).

You are still very young. You have no children. The simplest thing 2 do still would be 2 cut your losses, by all means wish her well in her efforts 2 find herself and be honest with herself (and others). But she's even younger, and most people would likely tell you that she's not "marriage material" - at least not yet.

If she doesn't want a DV (and I really can't tell for sure she does from the foggy nonsense she barfed out in her letter), then there are some BIG STEPS she must take in order 2 convince you that she doesn't. First and foremost, she MUST sever all ties with the OM.

I just don't see it happening.

best,
-ol' 2long

Been there, tried that, didn't work out very well. It caused me more grief than anything else and more resentment, fighting and withdrawl.

If you have family that will help you out in either staying with them while your in the hump, i presume financially, then see if they can. That is what we ended up doing, moved to a new area and got back on our feet.

That letter can be summed up in one word "justification".

Never ever mistake this for acceptance of responsibility for her own choices.

She has attempted to make it appear that this is what she is doing..but it takes a severe left turn right at the critical moment and every time she ..well..she balks.

Drifts off into vague accusations of emotional abuse and "not being herself" and various other piles of horsepuckey.

I always wonder who they were being while not themselves...don't they know identity theft is a crime?

Wow does this one hit close to home,, errr I mean the Hospital. Same situation, serial cheating, old Doc (one affair just 6 months before the one with my WW) broke up two marriages, cost my EX WW her son, and will soon be broke, that I can promise all for a new piece of tail. Awfully expensive.

I would out him at the hospital and write a letter insisting the two not work together and I would have it come from my attorney if WW will not agree to make sure the two cannot see one another at work. My Ex WW would not quit working either (nurse too). Well she's paying for it now from what I here and hasn't seen anything yet while OMW is lining up her divorce settlement with him (he will be a broke, tired old Doc handing out prescriptions until he's 80).

Fred,


Sorry to see how this is going. I don't see her working on anything except the A. She is not, NOT, working on getting herself straightened out as she says. She needs time for herself so she can decide if the A can become more.

You moving away will only allow this to continue unimpeded. You are being your own worst enemy by giving her her space IMHO.

If you want the M moving away will not make that happen. You will need to stay at HOME and fight for the M. Get busy, expose, kill the A.

Plan A your tail off. Prove to her you are the one she should be with.


You need to make a decision. Do you want to fight for her or do you want to walk away.

From what I am seeing I am afraid the later may still be the option you will end up in.

It's up to you.

Think long and hard about what you want. If you want the marriage to work, the tools and support structure are here for you, but, like others have said, you may well be better off leaving.

Very sorry for you.

"This is a hard thing for me to do and say but I am on a mission to be a happier healthier person and I am starting today. I have not been honest with myself and therefore a lot of things in my life have been built on lies, but not on purpose. It started when I changed myself into someone that I was not. This started when I began seeing Freddie four years ago. I really liked him and it was like I was instantly in love with him. So I made all the things I didn't like about him ok and I changed myself to be who he wanted me to be and let him control me. Of course I didn't see this at the time, which has gotten me into the mess that my life has become. I really wanted to be married and have a family and have children so I was so sure that I had found someone who I could make that dream come true with. So I continued rationalizing things keeping my mind on this main goal. Thinking everything would be ok in the end. This was a big huge mistake. I realize it now. Not the whole time we have been together, but for a long time now we have had problems. The part of the problem that I contributed to was not being honest with my self because I was not allowed to be myself. It may have appeared that I was myself but I wasn't. Not the real complete me. I was in a relationship with someone who deep down inside of me I didn't really like at all, keep reading and I will explain why. This manifested itself in different ways in our relationship. But I was not being honest with myself so I did not allow myself to see what the problem was. One problem is that in Freddie's family each person has a lot of influence over the other. And in my opinion they are very dependant on each other in ways that I don't agree with. I just told myself it would be ok- rationalization number one. Well I am not ok with it no matter how much I like these people. Number two-Iabsolutely did not and never do want a marriage like the one that Freddie's parents have. I do not at all like the way that his dad treats his mom or the way he treats his family when he is super nice to everyone else including me. So this is exactly what I did not want but let me tell you it is exactly what I got. But I have a lot of pride and I did not want to admit that to anyone especially not myself. I do so many things because of my pride like I have to be this certain way in other peoples eyes because I care too much about what other people think. I think that Freddie's dad has been emotionally abusive to his family and I hate it. But you know that's exactly what Freddie did to me. That's exactly how he treated me. Of course Freddie is a nice guy so is his dad but they are horrible to the one person they should love the most, their wife. But my pride would not let me admit it. So I had to hide it. I wouldn't tell anyone that that's how it really was because of my pride. I was in a relationship where I could not be true to myself I was being emotionally abused by a person who was supposed to love me maybe he really does love me but no way ever ever do I deserve to be treated with such disrespect or abusive badgering blame and belittling. I became a person who was being controlled by someone else out of fear for what I might have to deal with if I didn't just be passive and go along with everything. I was allowing myself to be manipulated, and I am so mad at myself for letting it happen. So I have felt really trapped in something that I did not ever want but I just told myself it would be ok because I wanted to be married and have a family and now I am not ok. I have lost my true self and lived with someone who represented something that I actually despised so of course this is going to manifest in the relationship. But you know, I never ever saw it that way. Now I have to stand up for myself and be who I am and make my own decisions and be honest with myself. This is going to be a long journey but I am going to counseling and I am going to have a much happier and better life because of this. So I started to realize all of this, this past
November. I began realizing I was very unhappy and so was Freddie. I told him I thought we should get a divorce but of course he did not agree so this made a big problem because I do not Like to cause conflict and of course I care way too much about what other people think so I let everyone start taking over my thinking and talked me out of my decision. So we were going to see a counselor for help, help I desperately needed but really wasn't aware of it. The reason I was made to believe was because other people thought I had a deeply rooted problem with intimacy or problem with men in general. Not the case in my opinion. My problem is not caring enough about myself to be true to myself and let other people's opinions dictate my life. But during this time I made another mistake. After I told Freddie I didn't think we should be together I was finding comfort in talking to another man. Someone who I could be myself with and accepted me for who I was. I know this was wrong so I lied about it. But I thought well me and Freddie are going to be divorced anyway so it will be ok. This fact does not make it right. I know that if I really wanted to do the right thing I should have waited until I was not married. But it gets worse. I made the mistake of sleeping with him, two times. But I also lied about it thinking it would be ok because when I made this decision I had made my decision that I could no longer continue with Freddie. So I told myself again that it would be ok. But I know its not. And if I am going to change my life and be able to be honest with myself then I have to be honest all the time. I know I'm only human and I'm not perfect but I have so much pride that I just couldn't bear to admit it. Well here it is for everyone to see. No more hiding... of anything. This is not something I ever wanted to do but you do crazy things when you feel empty inside. This does not excuse my behavior. So I am apologizing to everyone I love and who has ever loved me. I made several mistakes and now I am going to correct them. Honesty is the first step. So did Freddie deserve to be hurt this way, no I don't care how bad he made me feel no one deserves this. And my intent is never to hurt anyone. But I do not deserve to be treated the way that I have been by a person who is supposed to love me. And a lot of things were going wrong between us because I couldn't admit to myself that he is like is dad and I despise that. So why did I ever settle for something I knew I never wanted? Well my best guess is because I chose to ignore it and tell myself it wasn't there, thus not being true to myself, a basis of lies. I cannot say to Freddie that I love him for who he is. I tried loving hime hoping he would be something else, but he is not. You also cannot change for another person. I am a case in point that when you try to do it failure is always the outcome because it is called not being true to yourself. Thus everything is built on lies. Now I am asking God for forgiveness for all of these mistakes, and I am taking the steps to never repeat them. I hope the people who love me can forgive me, knowing I am really trying to do the best with my life. That means being honest with myself and not settling for less than what I want. I don't want to be with someone who is emotionally abusive and who is a replica of what I despise. I'm sorry if the things I have said in this letter are hurtful in any way. But I am being honest now. I couldn't live the way I was living. I would die inside. I also know that what I have learned and the lessons that I take from this situation will help me in every relationship that I have or will ever have in my life. I know this type of honestly may make people think differently of me but this is how it is. God is the one who will judge me, everyone else on this earth are human and all make mistakes too, yet people will judge and I know that. But if I am true to myself and I am happy, other people's opinions don't matter because I am the only one who has to live my life. My life is not perfect, no matter what you think you may have seen before, it was based on me not being true to myself and I was very unhappy. I believe that people who love you want you to be happy. Well everyone, I am getting there and now I am taking the right steps. Please accept me for who I am."

.
.
.
.
.
.

how many was it?

Pep

this is a very very immature young lady

....

I say cut her loose

she is just not mature enough to be anyone's wife

sorry

Pep

I love her with all my heart and can't just leave. It doesn't feel right in my heart. But what feels worse is knowing that he is going to be in the same room with her and that is just not fair to me. She says working with the counsler is really helping her understand what she became and why. I understand from reading HNHN and LB why I became the husband I was. I am ready to work on myself as a husband and individual person, but she says she can't work on being a wife yet. I think what really scares the sh$t out of me is she is finally going to be that person I hope she is going to be, and if the situation stays the same I won't be able to let her back in. I am sick of snooping, it is driving me crazy, although I have gotten pretty good at it. I know I am going to be a much better husband by controlling the taker in me and communicating and negotiating and using all of Dr Harleys methods because I really believe in them. She thinks me making her quit her job is me just controlling her and she can't allow me to do that anymore. I understand the "fog", but people in it don't....everyone keeps telling me I deserve better, and I do, but she did too. I can't get a D based on the A, I can get a D if I couldn't meet her needs and vice versus and I want that oppurtunity.

Thanks
Fred

ok Fred

I sincerely I wish you good luck

write out your plan in detail
and then implement your plan

remember
"hope" is not a method

but hope + implementing your plan is a method

good luck

Pep

Hmm....that came out weird...I wonder why everyhting is bold.

Fred... youa re getting great advice here. The thing is... what seems impossible right now could change. But it will require you toughening up and not being walked on.
I read the statement that you made...
"I love her with all my heart and can't just leave."
You deserve better than this. You say you know that... but you don't. Bottom line is NOTHING here will change without YOU taking a stand.
Please pay attention to Pep and Noodle.... two of the brightest stars on these boards. They will not steer you wrong.
Good luck

Fred, aside from all the typical rationalizations in her email that could be written by almost any WS, she mentioned God toward the end of the "justification letter."

So I am curious is this is just another "off hand" reference to God that many make, or if you and your wife have been born again?

A relationship or lack of a relationship with God will have a direct bearing on your marriage.