There's been a lot of talk on the boards lately about the Emotional Need of Admiration, especially as given to men by women. I have a few thoughts on that since my WH's #1 EN (outstripping all the others combined) is Admiration.

"Walt's marriage to Lilly was one of mutual give-and-take. He discovered early that he had married no meek, acquiescent wife. Lilly listened to his dreams but she did not respond with unquestinoing support. When she thought he was wrong, she said so. "Lilly," he said admiringly, "you're the one person I can count on never to 'yes' me."
- from *Walt Disney: An American Original*, page 194

Walt Disney was one of the most successful entrepeneurs and businessmen on the planet and made more money that God, but he sure knew the value of having at least one person around whom you could count on to tell you the truth no matter what.

I tried to do the same for my WH, but once he got to be success at the corporate office he shot it down cold and did not want to hear it anymore. We used to discuss things like this, but he put a cold stop to it once he was the Big Boss.

And I am NOT talking about tearing him down, or anything like that. I worked at the same place and was giving him a different perspective on what it was like to be an hourly employee instead of a manager like he was. We had always freely talked about anything and everything before and found it fun and stimulating - but once he found he could get bottomless strokes and Yessing from the office tramps, he was no longer interested in anything I thought or anything I had to say.

I know that his #1 Emotional Need is Admiration. That's fine - but he never understood that someone who will tell you the truth about things even when it's tough is giving you the highest form of Admiration (and respect).

But, no, he didn't want to hear it. It was far easier and far more fun to lap up the bottomless Admiration and endless "yessing" that was coming from the office tramps than it was to get honest respect from somebody like me, so he ignored me and cut me out and allowed them to heap on all the "admiration" he could get.

He suffers from the same curse that every Ruler has but does not seem to realize it. No Ruler can ever know for sure when somebody's Admiration is genuine and when it's just being done to Get What They Want From the Boss. He honestly seems to think that when these women fawn over him, it's because they really mean it.

Aside from the fact they women who fawn over married men in the first place are anything but decent people, does he really not see that they are using him just as much as he's using them? Well, maybe he does see that and just don't care. Lots of men don't.

He gets heaps of Admiration and fawning, and Office Tramp #1 gets a boyfriend.

He gets loads of Admiration and flirting and butts in his face, and Office Tramp #2 gets her promotions and public strokes.

He gets Honesty and Truth (the highest forms of Admiration) from his wife, but his wife gets ignored and lied to and cut out of his life so other women can "yes" him instead.

Admiration became an end in itself. I've said that it's a drug to him and so it is, especially when it's coming from some female. Even when it's fake and trashy and fawning and sickening and coming from the office tramps, it clearly tastes better to him than the real Admiration his wife tried to give him by Respecting him enough to tell him the truth.

I have CNN on at the moment. Nancy Pelosi has just been elected Speaker of the House. She is standing on the House floor waving to the crowds and she is standing with her HUSBAND, her children and several grandchildren.

What are these people thinking by publicly sharing their success with their families??? Don't they know that it will ruin their careers?

And just think - Walt Disney always had Lilly at his side whenever he was being honored or celebrated for one thing or another (and that was often.) He sure didn't go and share the occasion with some woman from his office and order his wife to stay out of sight.

It's too bad he didn't have my WH to advise him about things this like this and tell him to keep his work life totally cut off and separate from his home life. But, no - Walt and Lilly shared many, many events together and remained married for 41 years until the day he died.

It's too bad. Maybe ol' Walt would have been a bigger success and made more money (and gotten more butts in his face) if he'd been smart enough to cut wife out of his life the way my WH has. What a shame that Walt didn't know to do that.

ain't nobody got nothin' on Fake Admiration vs. Real Admiration?
Mulan

Well, Mulan, one of the first thoughts that came to mind in respect to your WH's actions is WHAT A CROCK OF [censored]!!!! But you have to know that my state of mind is not good right now..

I think you said it when you asked about Fake vs. Real; Real admiration involves DESERVING it, EARNING RESPECT; Fake admiration is really just A$$ kissing at it's highest and most regal...

So what do we do with WS whose top EN is Admiration, but who do not know and/or do not care that there is a difference between genuine, heart-felt, respect-driven Admiration and fake, trashy, puke-inducing [censored]-kissing?

Are BS expected to provide the fake kind just so the WS "can get their needs met" from the BS, or should the BS refuse to sink to this level? After all, the OP sure don't hesitate to [censored]-kiss and suck up all day long . . . but as God is my witness, I just cannot bring myself to behave like they do. I just can't. He absolutely ADORES it, cannot get enough of it, and is willing to sell his own family down the river to get it, but I just cannot behave like they do. I just can't.

I have tried giving him the Real kind, and he likes that all right, but it doesn't even register with him when the fake gushy crap that the flirty trashy girls dish out at work is forthcoming.

I am completely at a loss here. And I only posted this because I have seen several other posters here talk about how their WH has a huge need for Admiration and is more than happy to eat out of a garbage can to get it.

What do you do then? How do you compete with a garbage can? Even worse, why would someone who is happy eating out of a garbage can care anything at all about dining at a fine restaurant? The garbage can is so much easier!
Mulan

Before coming to MB alot of this stuff was unknown to me... LB ed all over the place.

My H is not in a position of power - he is a truck driver. So, it is sometimes almost a chore to find things admirable about him - but, I do.. it does not have to be big, huge things - I can usually find a way to work some admiration into what he is talking about, big or little. Probably does the same trick. Actually, I have gotten quite good at it and find myself doing the very same things with other people I know.

I believe most everyone wants/needs to be admired for something - be it big or little.

Hope I have not gotten too far off the track you were on, Mulan. ((( Mulan )))

Carnation

Ah, well, I am very similar to you in that I don't just give admiration to anybody, or in ANY WAY.

Since you are dealing with P/A behavior, I would have to say that your WH gets no resistance from these others, so it's easy for HIM, for now. HE doesn't even have to lift a finger to get this attention. Are you sure it's not the ATTENTION?

My question for you is, are you enforcing your boundaries regarding inappropriate behavior or R's with OW? Are YOUR EN's being met? What are the consequences for your WH's behavior?

If your WH enjoys 'slumming' for his need for admiration, what is so admirable about HIM?

This sounds like a truly SORE spot for you, and I'm so sorry that you have to deal with this, as I am sorry that any of us have to go through this purgatory...

I'm with SL, Mulan.

You know better than we do but I'm not sure it's ADMIRATION that your H is seeking.

As you may have heard me say, ADMIRATION is one of my H's primary needs but he WORKS HARD to gain this by his DEEDS. He almost resents any sense of phoniness about the ADMIRATION received. He craves ADMIRATION in the form of RESPECT and APPRECIATION.

Prior to his A, he used to do A LOT for me and I failed to say thank you, taking him for granted.

I have to apologize, Mulan, if I seem a bit, I don't know, maybe angry. I have to try to stop FORGETTING to take my Lexapro before bed...I'm a little agitated today... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

(Pssst, Mimi...I'm finally catching on to the art of letting go, and it's helping me, since that idiotic break in Plan B, thanks for all your help; I'll probably be needing more, but I now BELEVE that I'm going to be okay) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No worries, SL. I'm about due for my evening dose of Mother's Little Helper myself.

And Mimi, seriously, if it's not Admiration, then what is it?? Plain old "attention" is not on the EN list. I figured that one came under Admiration and Affection.

??
Mulan

What about RECREATION? I forgot to say this. It's what I was thinking.

Well, most of this did not involve Recreation - Conversation would be a big part of it and we used to enjoy loads of good lively Conversation on ANY subject since I like it, too. But I'm telling you, he is a bottomless pit for female attention and sucking up. He behaves exactly like an addict for it.
Mulan

Mulan -

There is a commercial on TV right now that I just love. It shows an older, bald man, with a pot belly, wading in the surf. He is watching 3 young gorgeous babes running toward him. The next shot, the 4 of them are hugging and walking, arm in arm, smiling and laughing.

Then the camera pans out to a yacht anchored out in the surf - and the announcement "Everyone loves a boat".

I'm with you, I don't think some men care WHY they are admired, just that they are.

I used to ask my ex if he ever wondered why a woman 18 years younger than he would be interested in him. He thought it was his great body (6 ft, 280 lbs), or his wonderful personality. But it didn't trouble him at all until the two of them went through all of our money, and then she dumped him.

believer, that commercial reminds me of a recent interview with Hugh Hefner. He thinks every man wants to be like him and that all men look up to him and envy (Admire) him, but the reality is that he's a pathetic old man stoked on Viagra and surrounded by prostitutes. Those girls are only there because he pays them to be there and the minute his money is gone, they're gone, too.

But he doesn't care. It doesn't matter that the Admiration is 100% fake. He doesn't see that and he just doesn't care. WH is the same way.

The trouble is, that garbage can stays FULL all the time. FULL TO OVERFLOWING. It doesn't matter that it's garbage. What matters is that there so darn much of it. The fine restaurant takes care with what it prepares and though it certainly wants to satisfy, it will not sacrifice quality for quantity.

Again: How do you compete with that? How do you deal with someone who would rather have an overflowing dumpster full of garbage rather than "settle" for a mere plateful of fine and genuine food?
Mulan

I have a different question about admiration.

My H doesn't think he needs Admiration as a top EN, but that was a huge issue in his As, so far as I can tell. And he gets tons of admiration/attention from his job.

And I used to have a huge amount of admiration for him.

How do you give *real* admiration when the respect and admiration you used to have has been killed by As, lying, and all the associated disrespect and bad behavior that went with them? To me, it has to be earned again.

The closest I can get to wrapping my brain around this is to think about Orchid's "what have you done with my real H? " line. My real H, I admire(d) greatly. Fortunately, he seems to be on his way back. Not completely here yet, but on the road.

The alien? If he goes on a quest for outside "admiration" again, he will not be welcome in my home.

Im with you Mulan... if you ever do figure this one out..write a book and make a million $$$... I guess it's all just part of the "brain damage" thing... funny thing is..that when real H was still around stuff like this would make him gag if someone he knew was doing it... go figure
(I cant). SAS

I think there is a BIG difference between admiration vs egotism.

Admiration is given, egotism is demanded.

Anyone who has to make the lives of others ugly in the quest for admiration isn't really looking for admiration. Those are often very needy and selfish people who thrive on the hurt of others. It is a selfish quest.

I would not lower the standards I set for those I truly admire and who truly deserve by putting them on the same plateau as those who are egotisical.

JMHO,
L.

HI Mulan

What you describe can be identified as" narcissistic supply" if you Google this term you will find a great deal of information-- a lot of it rather hard to follow

However if you go to Amazon and search NARCISSISM then you will find a large number of books on the subject. There is one that I found very helpful. I can't remember the exact title but the author's name is Eleanor Payson, She tells in simple terms how it all works ......my eyes popped out on stalks and my jaw dropped to the ground when i read it. My h ticked every box it was a perfect description of all his techniques.

In some ways it was a great relief to find an identifiable pattern to his unpredictable behaviour,

I was thinking the same thing..that your H sounds narcissistic...my H is not narcissistic but others close to me are...there are also websites that have lots of valuable information regarding how difficult it is to be in a relationship with such a person....

This site has some interesting information:

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/personality_disorders/narcissism/about_me.html

In the definition, this is one of the features described:

It always circles right back to narcissism. Every time. I just wonder why I saw no signs of it for the first ten years we were together/married. He simply was not like that. A little arrogant, loved attention, sure, but not a liar and not a player and not cruel and cold.

I thought narcs were born, not made, and that there is *nothing* to be done for it. You can battle P/A and maybe have a chance, but a narc is a narc and that's it.

How did I miss that?
Mulan