Mel,


Just another way we differ, I guess. I always made it a point to ask my wife "how can I make it better for you?" I'm not about to say, "but forget about me trying anything you did with that jerk." There are limits naturally, but no need to discuss them here.

Artor,

Makes sense to me. There are definitely questions and answers that don't aid in recovery, and I think I've reiterated several times what kinds of questions I think those entail (they aren't questions about when, where, etc.)

I made it a point to tell my H to not ever, ever bring any sign of his filthy affair into my bed. If I had to emulate a filthy pig to "make it better" then I would pass. Good sex is a result of LOVE, not techniques learned rutting in a pig pen. That would be viewed as nothing but an insult for my H to ask me to do something the OW taught him in the pig pen.

Well I guess in your case that's covered by POJA.

Hi b3774608--

Enough advice for you??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As you can see, there are lots of opinions for you to digest, but underneath them all is one fact:

Truthfulness is vital between you and your husband for the recovery of your marriage.

Whatever questions are asked, whatever way you answer them:

Truthfulness is vital between you and your husband for the recovery of your marriage.

I don't know the details behind your affair. I don't know how your husband found out about it. But the importance of the truth can't be understated.

Does your husband know you are on this site, seeking advice? If not, tell him. It might mean a lot to him that you are seeking help of your own initiative -- a great gesture that I wish my wife had made / would make.

Sit down with your husband and discuss the process of answering questions. Assure him you will answer all the questions he asks with truth and love.

Share with him some of the opinions on here -- let him read them.

Suggest he list his questions and think through why he wants to know the answers. If you're in counseling, suggest he share them with the counselor. Encourage him to look at each question and your possible answers with the contribution they will make toward his personal healing and the recovery of your marriage.

Do this in love. Do this with tenderness. Do this with patience.

You both can get through this.

Here's what I would want to know;

Firstly, I know the OM and he can't carry my jockstrap as a father, friend, lover, provider, etc. I know this and just because my idiot, alien, EX WW chose to go insane and hook up with this loser does not my self esteem affect.

Now;

1. Is it over? yes then we can talk, no then get out of my sight
2. Will you have NC forever of any kind? yes, I want to see the letter you wrote him establishing NC forever, no then get out of my sight.
3. Do you have a STD? yes, get out of my sight, no, then prove it
4. Why did you do this? I don't know, then get out of my sight, I am finding out in counseling, I have been going for months now, okay I will try and help you as best I can
5. What your expectations if we try and recover? That you be the husband I need you to be, get out of my sight. I know most of the work will be on me and that I have to make you feel safe and be able to trust me. I have to show you that I love you and would never do this again.
6. Will you ever do this again? no, let's talk, I don't know, get out of my sight.
7. Have you learned what kind of person the OM really is? yes, then tell me about it, I don't know and don't want to talk about it, then get out of my sight.
8. Will you sign something legally establishing that I am the sole custodian of our son regardless if we reconcile or remarry? no, then get out of my sight, yes, then let's talk further.
9. Will you go and apologize in writing to everyone that you have hurt by your actions including OM's wife and family? no, get out of my sight, yes, then I will help you get through this.
10. Explain to me what you believe the depths of my hurt and pain to be? Good explanation, then let's talk, no understanding then come back to me when you better understand what you did and have caused.
11. Have you posted on MB board? yes, then let's discuss what you are learning, no, then call me after you have for 3 months.
12. Will you call and talk with other FWS and BS to understand both sides of what happened and the feelings each now have? yes, then I will help, no, then call me when you are ready.
13. Will you get into intense IC and find out what may be wrong with you (NPD, BPD, other)? yes, then I will help, no then call me when you are
14. Will you go and confess all before the Church with me at your side for support? yes, then I am there with you showing my forgiveness and love, no, then call me when you are.

I can think of more but my point is that I care far less about her sex life with some idiot I already know is a loser from his own mouth and actions than I do about whether she's gotten it: gotten what it means to be married, gotten what it means to make vows, gotten what it means to be committed, persevering, not quitting, communication of feelings, thoughts, honesty, trust, safety and more, gotten how much she hurt me and our children, etc

b3:

Come on back. This thread could use some info from its instigator.

Hiker45: Sorry it didn't work out for you. But you are wrong.

Whatever detail the BS wants, they get.

BS can't get the images out of thier mind? They can divorce our dirty stinking lying butts.

I have stated on other threads, that I told my BS everything she wanted to know. And I had 4.5 years of lies to own up to.

At one point, after many hours, I did tell her that we can get into some real nitty-gritty details and if she wanted to go there, I would continue to answer.

Even now, my BS will think of something and ask me about it. And I will ANSWER THAT QUESTION to my fullest ability. I make no allowance to protect her. She can tell me when to stop. I answer the question, and the spirit of the question. (I expand the answer)

Does my BS KNOW EVERYTHING about my A. No. Does she know everything that she WANTS TO KNOW? So far. But, I will tell her anything else she would like to know. She wants me honest. I had lied for so long, that's all she wanted....

Artor:

I know how much you would like to have this happen for you:
Truthfulness is vital between you and your husband (wife) for the recovery of your marriage.

And I hope one day it does happen for you.

HopeandPray:

Couldn't you just throw them into the river and see if they didn't float? Wouldn't that be quicker?

LG,

I know that I may be more stern than most but rest assured every marriage here was not betrayed because the BS was not the man or woman they needed to be, were not meeting needs, were not loving, admiring, appreciative, helping, caring, etc. Plan A is worthless to a WS who was already getting these things. It's just more of what they said was important to them but no longer want or need as they have traded you in for someone else. You will be surprised to know that I am no longer bitter towards EX WW, I actually feel pity for her.

My point was that I would be willing to help in any way possible just as I was when she still had the chance to come home and not destroy our children and M with her selfish, entitled behavior and attitude. But, most of the work would be on her (See Mortarman's thread). I would have to remain helpful but detached because you see, she's a liar and a manipulator and I would have to reach a point where I would feel comfortable that "she got it" before emotionally investing again.

Sorry, but for me this would be the only way she ever graces my door again, period!

Hiker you are right that there are hurtful things that it may not be helpful for the BS to know. But.... IF they DO want answers, the ws IS OBLIGED TO PROVIDE THEM.

Not quite sure why you decided to go off on me about this honestly. Dr Harleys views on honesty are well documented on this site. I don't need to go on his program to ask him what I already know, despite it being geographically impossible for me to do.

Awwww, c'mon BigK, why can't you go a couple nights with no sleep to ask Dr. Harley for his WELL DOCUMENTED stance on RADICAL HONESTY??? It'd be worth it (for me anyway-lol) just to hear him ask you if you'd EVER read ANY of his stuff!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The main point in all of this, of course, is that it is ENTIRELY up to the BS-PERIOD...Allowing a WS to decide-the SAME WS, btw, that acted to keep information from the BS in the first place is just LUNACY!!! I fear that the original poster will cling to Hiker's viewpoints here as a validation to keep things from her BS which would ultimately damage he and she MORE than has already occured...I sincerely hope that she does NOT do that, and decides to NOW respect her BS by giving him WHATEVER he asks for...

A word of advice to the original poster...If I were you, I would heed with greater weight the advice that is coming to you from people in RECOVERED marriages...That is presumably what you want in your own life after all...

Mrs. W

lousygolfer,


BigK,



For about the fifth time now, I am not advocating lying or withholding truth. I am saying there are ways of providing the truth that are less damaging than others, and there are things the betrayed spouse might be better off not asking. I am not the arbiter of those things, so I don't need to be told "Whatever detail the BS wants, they get."

When it comes to what Dr. Harley believes, eventually there will probably be about as many interpretations of him as there are about the Bible. Example: I have seen people on this forum advising others that six months is as long as you should do your Plan A, or that it should go at least that long. That isn't what Dr. Harley has said at all. He says one should set a time, and he used six months as a good example for men (because he believes it is easier for men). But I have heard him tell folks on his radio show, men who don't want to move out and risk losing custody of their children, to go as long as 2 years. He told this to Mickey51.

So for someone to imply that Dr. Harley's policy of radical honesty means always telling the truth in its purest form, no matter how brutal or emotionally damaging it might be, I say you better ask the man before you come to conclusions he may never intended.

I would advise you to consider your audience here...You are responding to a FWS asking if she should give details to her BS...You are NOT responding to the BS...I can tell you that WS/FWS with any fog left at all, would CLING like white on rice to your answers here as justification to keep their BS in the dark...THAT WOULD BE VERY DAMAGING!!!

Mrs. W

I think this is really quite simple.....

Anything the BS want to know is fair game and should be answered honestly and to the BS's expecations

The WS is in no position to determine what the BS needs or wants to know. It is their place to provide the information.

The BS needs to be careful about asking question as the images conceived in the process of doing this may have a long shelf life and impede future recovery (but regardless, this is the option of the BS, not the WS).

Hiker - no one is suggesting that a WS should deliberately hurt their BS any more than they already have.

But if the BS REALLY WANTS TO KNOW exactly which positions of the Karma Sutra were employed then the WS damn well better exactly and immediately come up with a truthful answer to that direct question.

You hiker ARE advocating dishonesty. You talk about deflecting questions with double speak. Or have you changed your position since your first post on this thread?

Charitable. There probably isn't any other factor that would prevent a marriage from recovering other than that the BS failed to follow MB to the letter, right?

BigK,

Doublespeak, eh? Well, I guess I am done trying to explain the nuance of my position.

Hiker, IMO, if there is one thing that will end a marriage in the wake of an affair, I think refusing to answer questions to the satisfaction of the BS would be it.

b3774608,

Figured this question out yet? There sure are a plethora of opinions. LOL.

How about a specific example of how this worked out in the real world?

In my sitch, FWW had a ten-year VLTA with multiple D-Days. A real mess.

She said during MC after the last D-Day, “There are many things between OM and I. Too many to explain. Too many to describe. Too many details that will hurt everyone involved more than they already hurt. Why can’t we just move on?”

Actually, I believed her – about the impossibility of revealing everything about the VLTA. How could she remember details that happened so long ago, for example? How could she explain things that evolved over a decade?

But I asked for details anyway. I could not sleep not knowing certain things. MC said it might not be helpful to the big picture, but she supported my need to know.

So FWW said, pretty much like Hiker quotes from that book, many things that did not pour oil on the water: OM was better in bed, better looking, more interesting in general, very wealthy, a better conversationalist and… well, you get the picture. I am Hiker’s example of an IQ of 70 compared to OM.

But it helped me anyway. I was so, so tired of lies and obfuscations and omissions and secrecy. I had way more than my fill of being manipulated and used. I wanted the whole unadulterated truth so I could make informed decisions about my life for once.

A very good analogy is a doctor telling a patient they have advanced cancer. There may be risky, painful, uncertain treatment with no guarantees. Informed consent lays out all the ugly side-effects and lack of certainty so the patent, and family, can decide what to do in the light of day. They have a well established right to know the whole truth.

If there are details so ugly and hurtful the BS will not be able to continue in the M then it is still the BS’s right to decide what they will do knowing the whole truth, don’t you think?

Anything less is even more selfish manipulation by the FWS. A continued desire to avoid consequences.

FWW could not tell me everything I wanted to know. Memory, shame, guilt, and self-interest all played a part. So, there are still huge areas of darkness in her VLTA. Many things I will never know.

These unknown details still eat at me on occasion, years later. As recovered as we are, there are gaps in our M that will forever prevent true intimacy. Sorry, but it’s true. I will never completely feel like we are as close as we could have been because of these secret information gaps - these bottomless holes scattered around in our marriage.

I am human, you know. I have feelings too. I often hurt more because of these secrets than I do over the details she did reveal about her adultery. I eventually worked through the truths I did learn. I am still stuck in the mire of the things I do not know.

Actually, that should be clarified. I am not stuck, I have moved around them. But the path around them is not the path through them. The two paths lead to different places.

We are not where we could have been. But, I am fine.

My recommendation is to be ethical. Carefully give him what he asks for. He is only asking for the truth, after all. He has an inalienable right to decide the future direction of his life. He finally has an opportunity to exercise that right which you denied him during your adultery.

IMO, the truth will always work out for the best, for both of you.

Informed consent: everyone's inalienable right.

With prayers,

BK,

I'm a little over a year out from d-day. My husband is reticent to talk, to open up, about the affair. He has "answered" my questions, yes. But here's the problem: I have to think of the "right" questions, and ask them, get those answers, think about them, then ask the next series of "right" questions, in order to figure out what happened, where, and why. This has been like torture for me.

You are SO right about refusing to answer questions being the one thing that will most likely end the marriage. I feel like I am some sort of a detective, and it's up to me to figure out what lies of omission I have overlooked.

It is driving me crazy, because with every little piece of information that comes out that is "new", I am put back to square one again.

My advice to b3: Sit down and tell your husband the story of what happened. The broad story - how you met the guy, how it led to the affair, and why you think it happened. Tell him what YOU did wrong, what YOU didn't do right in your marriage before the affair began, what YOU plan to right from now on, what YOU plan to do to help heal his pain. Ask your husband what he wants to know - and answer his questions. First, answer the question in the general sense, and then ask him if there are any details about your answer that he might need.

If my husband would take the lead like this just one freaking time, we just might make it. Right now, I am looking at the door with ever increasing thoughts that it might be better to run, because maybe he really doesn't want to fix this - that maybe his reluctance to talk about it is his way of saying, "leave, please, just leave".

He is not very verbally expressive, and it has been up to me to read between the lines. If you leave it up to him to read between the lines, he may end up reading what I am reading. What is the message he will read that you are sending?

I don't know what my husband's message is - I have to divine it. I am very tired of that.

I will tell you that each and every time he has to ask you, he is essentially starting over if you haven't told him the truth, the whole truth, before that.

Take the lead, and tell him your story. You will see great relief in his eyes, and feel it in your relationship.

Then, tell him to come here for support.

Schoolbus

I think Hiker is WAY off base here... but it is this type of [********************** Not everyone had a spouse that was willing to do things required to allow for recovery.... ************would have you believe that EVERYONE that follows the MB program will recover. This is simply not true. Many will... some, sadly, will not.

But Hiker... it is important to be honest with your spouse. As BS will decide for themselves what level of information they need to move forward... or perhaps decide to leave the M if certain lines in the sand were crossed. That should be their choice to make and it should NOT be influenced by lies and deciet

Aphelion and Schoolbus - wonderful posts and great advice.

Schoolbus - I'm presuming you have conveyed these thoughts to your husband?

I did in fact sit down with my wife when she came back home and she walked through this exactly as you described answering all questons. Answered questions for months. Walked through things over and over again. She hated doing it but it has lead to a pretty decent recovery IMO.

From Penalty Kill


Speaking as a FWW, good idea or not is beside the point. I think that if this is what your H wants you to do you should do it. Pretty straightforward - you have to go on the assumption that he knows what it will take for him to heal.

In my case, my H asked for the truth I gave it to him. He was one who wanted to know the minute details. Not everyone is like that, but he was.

It's like pulling off a bandaid by millimeters - wouldn't it be better just to rip it off? Either way it's going to hurt, don't kid yourself, so it's better to just have the pain out of the way.

But I must say that I object to the ridiculous notions that the 1) the original poster should give greater credence to those posters in recovered marriages, and 2) that a poster's difference of opinion is somehow "damaging".

Just my $.02