My spouse and I are trying to survive after my affair. I make no excuses and understand my wrong doings. In trying to rebuild our relationship, we have read a few of Dr. Harley's books and website (as well as others) and listened to some of the radio shows.

As recommended I have severed all ties and communication with the lover My spouse and I have moved to a new state and I have not seen or talked to that lover for nearly six months now. (Hopefully in doing this I'm taking the precaution of the affair happening again).

While my spouse and I still have a lot to work on, for the most part, I have seen a great improvement on both our parts. We're both trying to get past the affair but my spouse has said that he wants to have a sit down to ask me questions about all of the details of the affair. He said he wants to ask me questions and wants me to answer straight and knows some answers will hurt him to hear and some questions I would be reluctant to answer. But he wants to do this to "clear the air" (as he has put it).

My Question: Do you think this is a good idea?

My Opinion: This might hinder our progress, create in him more resentment, and become a tool by which he might try to use against me (or to hurt me), in the future.

Brief Background: Married 8 years. No engagement period. We eloped while still in college about 6-10 months after initially meeting. We're both 30. We have a daughter (6) together. I also have another child (14) that doesn't live with us (that was a result of a teen pregnancy). This is my 2nd marriage, where my 1st was to my 1st child's father and lasted less than a year. This is his first marriage. We have no family support in our lives either.

Sincerly,

Trying to work this out

I just bumped a thread called "Joseph's Letter" to the 1st page of this forum...read that and see if it helps you understand his need to know.

SD

It depends on the questions. Answers to very specific questions about what physical characteristics attracted you to the OP or descriptions about sexual performance can be very damaging. It would be best to dodge these questions because your husband can't really change his physical characteristics to please you. Comparing sexual performance can be even more damaging to one's ego in addition to creating images that he will never be able to erase.

Answering questions about details of meetings with the OP (time, place, etc.) are okay and go a long way toward restoring trust. Make sure you continually convey your regret for having engaged in this activity.

i also thought i needed to know everything about my H's affair

and bless his heart, he answered me

now i wish that i had only known the facts that didn't involve every sexual act and word and thought

i still close my eyes and see it in such detail because it was told to me in such detail

i can't seem to erase the pictures

maybe knowing this would help your H to better choose what he wants to know

tell him, yes, but tell it as you would want to hear it....not as it would be painted

if that makes sense

Any information about your affair that you withhold will not only greatly hinder his recovery, but will make it impossible for him to ever trust you again. You should have no secrets with your OP to which your husband is not privy. He needs to KNOW IT ALL in order to recover. He has to have ALL of his questions answered openly and HONESTLY in order to ever trust you again.

The level of detail to give your husband should be determined by HIM. Some need to know alot of detail, others just a general outline. But he should have access to whatever level he needs for recovery.

One of the first things I would do is STOP calling the OM your "LOVER". I certainly hope you're not using that term when talking with your husband.

Also, because there are quite a few BS on this site, I suggest you not use that term here either.

Jo

b3774608,
Part of recovery is being totally tranparent. Your H has questions that only you can answer. It is important to answer fully and honestly.

Will it hurt him? yes
Will it make you uncomfortable? yes

But you can't have secrets between your OM and yourself anymore. Your H has a right to know.

With that being said, as long as you two can handle the emotions that will come during this conversation, it will help him recover. Honesty will bring you closer. I know that doesn't make alot of sense to you, but it will.

Alot of BSs here, including myself, asked many many questions, but we had to be prepared for the answers. They are extremely difficult to hear.

So I suggest you two kinda set up a few rules. You could put a limit on the time frame for this conversation...it will be draining. Maybe have several conversations until your H has asked all the questions he needs to.

Also the two of you should agree to stop the questioning if your emotions cannot remain under control. Particularly him. He can't ask you to answer a "detailed" question if he starts to yell and scream at you when you answer.

It will be difficult. If it can be done calmly, it will help. Give him time afterwards to digest it. It may even take a couple of days, and it will probably take you back a few steps in recovery. That's normal. But if he is stuck with questions, your recovery is not moving forward as well as it could. Be prepared to give him space or a hug which ever is needed. Read his cues.

Good luck.

It would be conpletely dishonest, and destructive to any chance of recovery, of her to dodge or withhold any information.

This is all information to which he has a RIGHT to know. It may hurt him, but he is not an idiot and is a MUCH better judge of what he can and can't handle. HE should be the judge of what questions he wants answered or not. NO ONE ELSE IS QUALIFIED TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION FOR HIM. If those answers hurt him, then he can handle that, as he is an adult. But no one, EXCEPT HIM, is qualified to decide what he can or can't handle to hear. He is not a child, after all.

What WILL hurt him much more than that, and even prevent them from EVER rebuilding trust, is if she won't be honest with him. It is time for RADICAL HONESTY, not more withholding.

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

I respectfully disagree with this. Some things are better left unsaid. If an ugly person asks you if you think they are ugly, should you be honest and say, "Yes."? I think there are diplomatic ways of getting around this so that you can avoid damaging someone's ego.

Answers to questions about sexual performance and physical characteristics of the OP aren't likely to help recovery, and it's fallacious to believe that the BS always knows what is best for him or her to know about the affair.

But don't take my word for it. Let's poll some folks on here who have heard things they wish they hadn't heard and find out what they think.

Or for that matter, other counselors. I know Dr. Gunzberg says this is an area that you must tread cautiously.

From How to Survive An Affair:

"I caution against asking (and often recommend not answering)comparative questions, particularly about physical attributes, sexual prowess, and personality. Questions in this category include “Did your lover have (a) bigger or better _____ than I do?” or “Was your lover better or more creative in bed than I am?” These kinds of questions don’t serve any real purpose in terms of the healing process and usually just amplify the pain and jealousy the injured partner feels. If you are the cheater and your partner asks you a comparative question of this nature, you should simply remind them that the question isn’t a very healthy one and that you don’t intend to answer it. Reassure them that you are willing to be completely honest, but that you also feel responsible for not sharing illicit details of the affair that serve no function."

hiker, that paragraph from SAA is for the BS to read. It is not advice to the WS to withhold information. The WS has an obligation to answer each and EVERY question. The level of detail is not something for the WS to decide FOR the BS.

Each and every BS has to decide FOR HIMSELF what he can and can't handle. A poll cannot answer that for an individual.

I agree that the BS can be harmed by the answer, however, any REFUSAL, or dodging, to answer those questions will cause even GREATER HARM. Refusal to answer anything will cause distrust to grow and will cause the BS to imagine the WORSE.

So, while I agree the BS should tread cautiously as it says in SAA, it should always be up to HIM, and not EVER the WS, what level of detail he should hear. The BS is the ONLY ONE here who is qualified to make such a determination.

Well Hiker, I stand corrected. I just reread your post from SAA and clearly it does say NOT to answer questions surrounding physical comparisons. And on second thought, I can see how that information could serve no purpose, especially to most guys, who seem to be very sensitive about size.

So, I stand corrected and thank you for taking the time to point that out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hiker, do you have the page # on that? I am going to do some rereading.

It's How to Survive An Affair and also appears in an article called Surviving An Affair by Dr. Frank Gunzberg, page 150-151.

Hiker, did you see my last 2 posts?

This is not in Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard Harley?

For the record, I am a FWS and I can tell you that if I received this answer from my husband, Mr. W, about ANYTHING, it would ROYALLY tick me off...It is VERY condescending and disrespectful...ESPECIALLY to a BS...

The thing is, the ULTIMATE in disrespect and offensiveness has already happened...THE AFFAIR...The details are what they are...And it is MOST definitely NOT up to the WS to decide for the BS what they ought to know...The BS sets the rules there COMPLETELY...Common sense really should tell anyone that...

Mrs. W

Hiker it's totally up to the individual Betrayed Spouse to say what her needs to know. Regardless of how learned a psychologist may be. Put 5 psychs in a room you get 20 opinions.

My wife answered all my questions. It breaks the secrecy of the affair. There is nothing about the affair that has remained just between her and her OM. I know it all. I needed that.

I believe Dr Harley (this is his site after all) recommends answering all questions.

In that respect Melody Lane is correct along with others who take that view.

I'm glad to see so many folks tolerant of different views here.

I notice even Melody changed her mind when she thought the quote came from Dr. Harley.

Saying that 5 psychiatrists will come up with 20 different views is dissembling. The fact is that there are different views on this matter and they are undoubtedly supported by clinical experience; meaning, of course, that not all cases should be treated the same.


Instead of saying what you believe, why don't you find out for certain. Call the question into the radio show.

Too many people on this site front their opinions and back them up by saying the Harley's say this or the Harley's believe that. Then I see where someone has talked to SH (as I have many times) and heard something completely different.

Isn't this covered under Radical Honesty? I mean "Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know" seems pretty clear, to me.

Of course I haven't made a career out of lying...
QUOTE:
"Without honesty, the adjustments that are crucial to the creation of compatibility in your marriage cannot be made. Without honesty, your best efforts to resolve conflicts will be wasted because you will not understand each other well enough to find mutually acceptable solutions."

There may be those that want to know the specific details of the"what was done" but those people may have another issue to deal with. For my part, if I ask a question, it is because I think the answer will be of benefit...to me, her, us...

What a BS needs to know is up to the BS, but I would say don't ask questions you don't really want to know the answer to. Think about what the answer will give you that you don't already have, in the way of information, closure, etc.

If you ask a question and the answer is "X" and your course of action is "Z", but if the answer is "Y" and you course of action is still "Z"...Why ask the question?

Mark

Let's not make this quite so simplistic by saying we should be absolutely honest at all times. There are diplomatic ways of answering a question without causing further damage that don't involve lying.

If one of my mentally handicapped students asks me, "How come I'm not as smart as Billy?" I don't answer by saying, "According to your test results you have an IQ of 70 so your ability to learn is much less than Billy's." Instead I might say, "We all have different abilities. There are some things Billy can do better than you and there are some things you can do better than Billy." Then I would give an example. I'm not lying to him, but I'm also not feeding him the bald-faced truth that would be more harmful than helpful.

When someone says, "How do you like my new dress?" Do you tell them what you really think? Do you say, "It makes you look fat." No. You come up with some diplomatic way of answering the question that avoids offending them but isn't an outright lie.

You could probably try living your life being brutally honest at all times, but I'll bet you wouldn't have many friends.

But as I said, before you start quoting radical honesty, etc., find out what Dr. Harley will say on answering the specific questions Dr. Gunzburg mentions above.

I have found the Harley's to be much less inflexible on their views than some here would like you to believe.

Hiker, I misread and thought you were talking about Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley, which is why I wrongly corrected myself. Dr. Harley NEVER says anywhere, that I can find, that certain details should be withheld in the "best interest" of the BS. In all my years of being here, reading and listening to his radio show, I have never heard that. Rather, I have heard recommendations for complete and total RADICAL honesty.

As a BS, if my WS told me it was in my "best interest" to not be told something, there would be a HUGE problem because he is clearly NOT QUALIFIED to adjudge what is in my best interest or not. Refusing to be honest would be a great impediment to rebuilding trust and would stop me from getting what I NEED to recover. The only person QUALIFIED to determine what level of detail I can handle is ME.

No one BUT ME. BIG GIRL that I am.

And most certainly NOT a wayward spouse. If a BS makes a mistake and bites off more than he can chew, he is a big enough boy to handle that on his own.

I do agree very much with your suggestion that every BS should be very careful about what questions they do ask, because the answers might haunt them for years, as you suggested. No doubt that should be brought about.

Here is what Dr. Willard Harley says about honesty, and nowhere does he say to withhold details the WS feels are too damaging:
1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

From:

Four Rules to Guide
Marital Recovery After an Affair
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

I know as a FWW that I had huge fears in telling my H details, I mean how do you tell the person you love and hurt what you did with another man? I had exactly the fears you write about.
So you just be truthful and straight forward. I admit to trying to avoid it time after time, & that finally got to the point that my h basically gave me an ultimatium. That was potentially worse than the actual things he wanted to know in our recovery.
I was stupid with fear.

Tell him but perhaps think through the words you use. Many times his imagination may be worse than what ocurred. It actually was in my case to my H but funny enough not to me. I was just too ashamed and frightened of loosing him to tell him. He was insulted that I wouldn't.
But the gang here 4x2'd me and said well you are about to loose him but do you want him back? FEAR is the thing to get over.

Whatever you do DON'T insult him with half answers, if he asks specifics then take a deep breath and tell him. Will he get angry? I would expect it.
Will he get sad? I'd bet on it.
Will he be able to work through it? Most likely and if he can it will put some ghosts to rest finally. The what ifs must be so terrible for a BS to handle.
He may also ask the same questions over and over as my H did. Why? he lost trust in you and wants to be certain you told him the truth, so tell it the first time.
And yes it was a Sh*tty experience for both of us and I like you caused it. But its got to be done if he wants to know or recovery will not happen, that simple.

Time to be brave and risk it.

Mel,

I am not disagreeing with your contention that honesty is necessary for recovery or for the great marital relationship we all want.

What I am saying is this:

1. A betrayed spouse needs to be very cautious about what they ask because the answers could well be more damaging than not knowing, particularly when it involves things about him/herself that cannot be changed.

2. There are ways of answering very specific, sensitive questions honestly without inflicting more damage to the betrayed spouse's ego. Here is an example, and I dare say I'm being pretty tame even with the brutally honest answer because it could get much, much worse as far as ego damage goes.

Question: Was the sex better with her than with me?

Answer: In some ways.

Question: In what ways?

Brutally honest answer: Well, first off she is drop-dead gorgeous. You know she's a model, right? She has a flawless complexion -- there's just something about that perfectly smooth skin that turns me on. [This said while knowing full well the wife has acne scars from her youth.] She has a fabulous body and she knows how to use it.

Diplomatic but honest answer: It was just different. There were things about it that were very good, just as there are things about our lovemaking that are very good. Maybe I could show you some things that I found I like and we could explore a little more, if you want to.

Can anyone tell me how giving the brutally honest answer will benefit the betrayed spouse? Or does everyone just want to pat themselves on the back for their honesty, no matter what the cost to someone else's self-esteem?

Hiker, I agree with you that sensitivity should be used and have never argued otherwise. The biggest mistake a WS could make is to say something like: "I refuse to answer that because it will hurt you." They need to be honest in a sensitive, diplomatic manner and answer EVERYTHING the BS asks.


My husband would get a fist in the face if he ever suggested that he could show me some new techniques he learned in the pig pen in a filthy affair. But, I do get your point! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hiker, are you a WS or a BS? Are you in recovery?

If this had been my experience when asking questions about the affair, my H & I would both be single right now!

Of course tact would be a given for any answer but the need for TOTAL honesty is crucial.

Yes, I can imagine most folks would probably be irritated by such a comment.

But on a more serious note, I would not want to leave any stone unturned in an effort to please my wife sexually, even if it was something she discovered with someone else. I would not want her to think, "this is something about my affair partner that I miss."

Precisely. Well put.

The Betrayed Spouse's imagination is active and full of imaginged hurt.

Better to have the facts, as cold and hard as they may be, then imagined details.

I want my wife to tell me the full and true answer to everything I ask.

As a BS, and after looking at the MB principles in the days following d-day, I had lots of questions for my FWS. After a few honest answers were given I decided to call it a day as the images were becoming more intense. I was still in a very emotional state for some time, but have been reading several books on infidelity, and found that one thing mentioned was not to dwell on the details of the affair, but to concentrate on working on rebuilding the marriage. I decided then that I would not ask any more questions as it was doing me no good whatsoever. As soon as I think of something to ask, I then ask myself how is the answer going to help recovery. If it isn't then it isn't asked. I haven't asked anything for some time now.

Mel,

I am a betrayed spouse, not in recovery. Affair still going strong now for 1 1/2 years; discovery 9 months ago. Finally threw in the towel and recently filed for divorce.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Ummmm,,nahhhhhhhhh,,I don't think soooooo....... : <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Artor,

That's great. But not everyone feels the same way, and some think they want the answers but are sorry they got them.

I know I've read a case history or two in the past nine months where some BS dropped out of recovery because they couldn't shake certain images; images conjured up by details given to them by the WS. Seems like they were both men.

I fully agree that the wayward spouse has the obligation to answer any question asked if they want the betrayed spouse to heal.

Now, I don't advise the betrayed spouse to enter a question and answer session haphazardly or without preparation.

I think the solid way to go about it is to have you spouse list the questions -- all of them -- good and bad.

Then put them away for a day or two.

Then read them over. The betrayed spouse should be able to definitely identify what the answer to each question will add to their healing.


Good reasons:

• "It will help me understand the level of emotion attachment you felt."
• "It will help me cope with trigger X or Y better."
• "I will help me understand what in our marriage was lacking."

Bad reasons to ask a question:

• "I was just curious."
• "Because I want to know."

I am really surprised that you think it is a good idea to use a technique in your marriage that you learned in a filthy affair. That would be bringing filthiness in my marriage and would be a grievous insult to me. It would imply that the OW was a better lay than me. Doing something like this would cause enormous damage. I am really surprised you don't understand how damaging this is. This is why I asked you if you were a WS.

Look....I am a strong advocate for openess and honesty regarding disclosure....

in my own case....I found out about a PA as my EXwife and I tried to reconcile after a divorce....and after such proceedings one is naturally cautious so she was anything BUT open with me. By not being open with me she dang near lost me in the process. I needed to understand the entire process and each and every "d-day" was more horrible than the last...and is there a part of me that doesn't feel my questions were answered? Deep down, yes...

The questions I had revolved around timing, events, identity, places, etc. All the gory details...I could care less...cause reality is she did come back to me...

however as I tried to "resolve" the realities they would change and that I could not take...regardless of what a WS thinks the BS begins to think "HOW COULD I MISS THIS??"!!!

So....read my story...see how disclosure...and lack of it almost derailed everything...

Another special thanks to Mel for "getting up in my face" many times about what my boundaries are....

Hiker--

I've said in other posts that I have two lists of questions.

Ones I will ask and have definite reasons for asking.

Ones I won't ask because I don't believe they are healty questions to ask.

I move questions between lists as I review the list. I check off questions my wife has answered.

I will never show my wife the list of questions I won't ask.

The reason is that if she is only willing to answer some of them and not others, then I will obsess over "WHY" she didn't answer the others. "What was so bad about the truthful answer to THAT question?"

I have decided and determined to give some of the questions over to God. I will never ask them. But if I decided that some of them were important, I want my wife to be direct and truthful -- not make the decision for me as to my need to hear the answer.

She does not get that right.

Exactamundo!

b3,

I am a BS. I want to know the details because:

The fear that OW was a better lay than I am.
The fear that OW made him feel better about himself than I do.
The fear he liked her more than he likes me.
The fear that OW was sexier than I am.
I think he wanted out of our marriage.
I need to know what furniture to burn.
I need to know where it is safe to sleep and eat in my house.
I need to know what I am lacking in meeting his needs.
I need to know what I did to contribute to his desire to go outside the marriage.
I need to know what to do to improve myself.
I need to know why he never talked to me about the problems he perceived in the marriage.

There are lots more reasons for the questions. Those are just a few, off the top of my head. Here's the problem with his not answering - I am over a year past d-day. Yesterday, by accident, I found out that I need to burn a chair and a table. HE was not the source of the information........

The OW was.

Now, tell me - where do you want him to get his information? And how long is he expected to wait for it? Do I think he has a right to ask you whatever he wants? You bet your sweet a$$ I do. Come over for the bonfire.

My recovery? It started over yesterday.

Schoolbus

Mel,


Just another way we differ, I guess. I always made it a point to ask my wife "how can I make it better for you?" I'm not about to say, "but forget about me trying anything you did with that jerk." There are limits naturally, but no need to discuss them here.

Artor,

Makes sense to me. There are definitely questions and answers that don't aid in recovery, and I think I've reiterated several times what kinds of questions I think those entail (they aren't questions about when, where, etc.)

I made it a point to tell my H to not ever, ever bring any sign of his filthy affair into my bed. If I had to emulate a filthy pig to "make it better" then I would pass. Good sex is a result of LOVE, not techniques learned rutting in a pig pen. That would be viewed as nothing but an insult for my H to ask me to do something the OW taught him in the pig pen.

Well I guess in your case that's covered by POJA.

Hi b3774608--

Enough advice for you??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As you can see, there are lots of opinions for you to digest, but underneath them all is one fact:

Truthfulness is vital between you and your husband for the recovery of your marriage.

Whatever questions are asked, whatever way you answer them:

Truthfulness is vital between you and your husband for the recovery of your marriage.

I don't know the details behind your affair. I don't know how your husband found out about it. But the importance of the truth can't be understated.

Does your husband know you are on this site, seeking advice? If not, tell him. It might mean a lot to him that you are seeking help of your own initiative -- a great gesture that I wish my wife had made / would make.

Sit down with your husband and discuss the process of answering questions. Assure him you will answer all the questions he asks with truth and love.

Share with him some of the opinions on here -- let him read them.

Suggest he list his questions and think through why he wants to know the answers. If you're in counseling, suggest he share them with the counselor. Encourage him to look at each question and your possible answers with the contribution they will make toward his personal healing and the recovery of your marriage.

Do this in love. Do this with tenderness. Do this with patience.

You both can get through this.

Here's what I would want to know;

Firstly, I know the OM and he can't carry my jockstrap as a father, friend, lover, provider, etc. I know this and just because my idiot, alien, EX WW chose to go insane and hook up with this loser does not my self esteem affect.

Now;

1. Is it over? yes then we can talk, no then get out of my sight
2. Will you have NC forever of any kind? yes, I want to see the letter you wrote him establishing NC forever, no then get out of my sight.
3. Do you have a STD? yes, get out of my sight, no, then prove it
4. Why did you do this? I don't know, then get out of my sight, I am finding out in counseling, I have been going for months now, okay I will try and help you as best I can
5. What your expectations if we try and recover? That you be the husband I need you to be, get out of my sight. I know most of the work will be on me and that I have to make you feel safe and be able to trust me. I have to show you that I love you and would never do this again.
6. Will you ever do this again? no, let's talk, I don't know, get out of my sight.
7. Have you learned what kind of person the OM really is? yes, then tell me about it, I don't know and don't want to talk about it, then get out of my sight.
8. Will you sign something legally establishing that I am the sole custodian of our son regardless if we reconcile or remarry? no, then get out of my sight, yes, then let's talk further.
9. Will you go and apologize in writing to everyone that you have hurt by your actions including OM's wife and family? no, get out of my sight, yes, then I will help you get through this.
10. Explain to me what you believe the depths of my hurt and pain to be? Good explanation, then let's talk, no understanding then come back to me when you better understand what you did and have caused.
11. Have you posted on MB board? yes, then let's discuss what you are learning, no, then call me after you have for 3 months.
12. Will you call and talk with other FWS and BS to understand both sides of what happened and the feelings each now have? yes, then I will help, no, then call me when you are ready.
13. Will you get into intense IC and find out what may be wrong with you (NPD, BPD, other)? yes, then I will help, no then call me when you are
14. Will you go and confess all before the Church with me at your side for support? yes, then I am there with you showing my forgiveness and love, no, then call me when you are.

I can think of more but my point is that I care far less about her sex life with some idiot I already know is a loser from his own mouth and actions than I do about whether she's gotten it: gotten what it means to be married, gotten what it means to make vows, gotten what it means to be committed, persevering, not quitting, communication of feelings, thoughts, honesty, trust, safety and more, gotten how much she hurt me and our children, etc

b3:

Come on back. This thread could use some info from its instigator.

Hiker45: Sorry it didn't work out for you. But you are wrong.

Whatever detail the BS wants, they get.

BS can't get the images out of thier mind? They can divorce our dirty stinking lying butts.

I have stated on other threads, that I told my BS everything she wanted to know. And I had 4.5 years of lies to own up to.

At one point, after many hours, I did tell her that we can get into some real nitty-gritty details and if she wanted to go there, I would continue to answer.

Even now, my BS will think of something and ask me about it. And I will ANSWER THAT QUESTION to my fullest ability. I make no allowance to protect her. She can tell me when to stop. I answer the question, and the spirit of the question. (I expand the answer)

Does my BS KNOW EVERYTHING about my A. No. Does she know everything that she WANTS TO KNOW? So far. But, I will tell her anything else she would like to know. She wants me honest. I had lied for so long, that's all she wanted....

Artor:

I know how much you would like to have this happen for you:
Truthfulness is vital between you and your husband (wife) for the recovery of your marriage.

And I hope one day it does happen for you.

HopeandPray:

Couldn't you just throw them into the river and see if they didn't float? Wouldn't that be quicker?

LG,

I know that I may be more stern than most but rest assured every marriage here was not betrayed because the BS was not the man or woman they needed to be, were not meeting needs, were not loving, admiring, appreciative, helping, caring, etc. Plan A is worthless to a WS who was already getting these things. It's just more of what they said was important to them but no longer want or need as they have traded you in for someone else. You will be surprised to know that I am no longer bitter towards EX WW, I actually feel pity for her.

My point was that I would be willing to help in any way possible just as I was when she still had the chance to come home and not destroy our children and M with her selfish, entitled behavior and attitude. But, most of the work would be on her (See Mortarman's thread). I would have to remain helpful but detached because you see, she's a liar and a manipulator and I would have to reach a point where I would feel comfortable that "she got it" before emotionally investing again.

Sorry, but for me this would be the only way she ever graces my door again, period!

Hiker you are right that there are hurtful things that it may not be helpful for the BS to know. But.... IF they DO want answers, the ws IS OBLIGED TO PROVIDE THEM.

Not quite sure why you decided to go off on me about this honestly. Dr Harleys views on honesty are well documented on this site. I don't need to go on his program to ask him what I already know, despite it being geographically impossible for me to do.

Awwww, c'mon BigK, why can't you go a couple nights with no sleep to ask Dr. Harley for his WELL DOCUMENTED stance on RADICAL HONESTY??? It'd be worth it (for me anyway-lol) just to hear him ask you if you'd EVER read ANY of his stuff!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The main point in all of this, of course, is that it is ENTIRELY up to the BS-PERIOD...Allowing a WS to decide-the SAME WS, btw, that acted to keep information from the BS in the first place is just LUNACY!!! I fear that the original poster will cling to Hiker's viewpoints here as a validation to keep things from her BS which would ultimately damage he and she MORE than has already occured...I sincerely hope that she does NOT do that, and decides to NOW respect her BS by giving him WHATEVER he asks for...

A word of advice to the original poster...If I were you, I would heed with greater weight the advice that is coming to you from people in RECOVERED marriages...That is presumably what you want in your own life after all...

Mrs. W

lousygolfer,


BigK,



For about the fifth time now, I am not advocating lying or withholding truth. I am saying there are ways of providing the truth that are less damaging than others, and there are things the betrayed spouse might be better off not asking. I am not the arbiter of those things, so I don't need to be told "Whatever detail the BS wants, they get."

When it comes to what Dr. Harley believes, eventually there will probably be about as many interpretations of him as there are about the Bible. Example: I have seen people on this forum advising others that six months is as long as you should do your Plan A, or that it should go at least that long. That isn't what Dr. Harley has said at all. He says one should set a time, and he used six months as a good example for men (because he believes it is easier for men). But I have heard him tell folks on his radio show, men who don't want to move out and risk losing custody of their children, to go as long as 2 years. He told this to Mickey51.

So for someone to imply that Dr. Harley's policy of radical honesty means always telling the truth in its purest form, no matter how brutal or emotionally damaging it might be, I say you better ask the man before you come to conclusions he may never intended.

I would advise you to consider your audience here...You are responding to a FWS asking if she should give details to her BS...You are NOT responding to the BS...I can tell you that WS/FWS with any fog left at all, would CLING like white on rice to your answers here as justification to keep their BS in the dark...THAT WOULD BE VERY DAMAGING!!!

Mrs. W

I think this is really quite simple.....

Anything the BS want to know is fair game and should be answered honestly and to the BS's expecations

The WS is in no position to determine what the BS needs or wants to know. It is their place to provide the information.

The BS needs to be careful about asking question as the images conceived in the process of doing this may have a long shelf life and impede future recovery (but regardless, this is the option of the BS, not the WS).

Hiker - no one is suggesting that a WS should deliberately hurt their BS any more than they already have.

But if the BS REALLY WANTS TO KNOW exactly which positions of the Karma Sutra were employed then the WS damn well better exactly and immediately come up with a truthful answer to that direct question.

You hiker ARE advocating dishonesty. You talk about deflecting questions with double speak. Or have you changed your position since your first post on this thread?

Charitable. There probably isn't any other factor that would prevent a marriage from recovering other than that the BS failed to follow MB to the letter, right?

BigK,

Doublespeak, eh? Well, I guess I am done trying to explain the nuance of my position.

Hiker, IMO, if there is one thing that will end a marriage in the wake of an affair, I think refusing to answer questions to the satisfaction of the BS would be it.

b3774608,

Figured this question out yet? There sure are a plethora of opinions. LOL.

How about a specific example of how this worked out in the real world?

In my sitch, FWW had a ten-year VLTA with multiple D-Days. A real mess.

She said during MC after the last D-Day, “There are many things between OM and I. Too many to explain. Too many to describe. Too many details that will hurt everyone involved more than they already hurt. Why can’t we just move on?”

Actually, I believed her – about the impossibility of revealing everything about the VLTA. How could she remember details that happened so long ago, for example? How could she explain things that evolved over a decade?

But I asked for details anyway. I could not sleep not knowing certain things. MC said it might not be helpful to the big picture, but she supported my need to know.

So FWW said, pretty much like Hiker quotes from that book, many things that did not pour oil on the water: OM was better in bed, better looking, more interesting in general, very wealthy, a better conversationalist and… well, you get the picture. I am Hiker’s example of an IQ of 70 compared to OM.

But it helped me anyway. I was so, so tired of lies and obfuscations and omissions and secrecy. I had way more than my fill of being manipulated and used. I wanted the whole unadulterated truth so I could make informed decisions about my life for once.

A very good analogy is a doctor telling a patient they have advanced cancer. There may be risky, painful, uncertain treatment with no guarantees. Informed consent lays out all the ugly side-effects and lack of certainty so the patent, and family, can decide what to do in the light of day. They have a well established right to know the whole truth.

If there are details so ugly and hurtful the BS will not be able to continue in the M then it is still the BS’s right to decide what they will do knowing the whole truth, don’t you think?

Anything less is even more selfish manipulation by the FWS. A continued desire to avoid consequences.

FWW could not tell me everything I wanted to know. Memory, shame, guilt, and self-interest all played a part. So, there are still huge areas of darkness in her VLTA. Many things I will never know.

These unknown details still eat at me on occasion, years later. As recovered as we are, there are gaps in our M that will forever prevent true intimacy. Sorry, but it’s true. I will never completely feel like we are as close as we could have been because of these secret information gaps - these bottomless holes scattered around in our marriage.

I am human, you know. I have feelings too. I often hurt more because of these secrets than I do over the details she did reveal about her adultery. I eventually worked through the truths I did learn. I am still stuck in the mire of the things I do not know.

Actually, that should be clarified. I am not stuck, I have moved around them. But the path around them is not the path through them. The two paths lead to different places.

We are not where we could have been. But, I am fine.

My recommendation is to be ethical. Carefully give him what he asks for. He is only asking for the truth, after all. He has an inalienable right to decide the future direction of his life. He finally has an opportunity to exercise that right which you denied him during your adultery.

IMO, the truth will always work out for the best, for both of you.

Informed consent: everyone's inalienable right.

With prayers,

BK,

I'm a little over a year out from d-day. My husband is reticent to talk, to open up, about the affair. He has "answered" my questions, yes. But here's the problem: I have to think of the "right" questions, and ask them, get those answers, think about them, then ask the next series of "right" questions, in order to figure out what happened, where, and why. This has been like torture for me.

You are SO right about refusing to answer questions being the one thing that will most likely end the marriage. I feel like I am some sort of a detective, and it's up to me to figure out what lies of omission I have overlooked.

It is driving me crazy, because with every little piece of information that comes out that is "new", I am put back to square one again.

My advice to b3: Sit down and tell your husband the story of what happened. The broad story - how you met the guy, how it led to the affair, and why you think it happened. Tell him what YOU did wrong, what YOU didn't do right in your marriage before the affair began, what YOU plan to right from now on, what YOU plan to do to help heal his pain. Ask your husband what he wants to know - and answer his questions. First, answer the question in the general sense, and then ask him if there are any details about your answer that he might need.

If my husband would take the lead like this just one freaking time, we just might make it. Right now, I am looking at the door with ever increasing thoughts that it might be better to run, because maybe he really doesn't want to fix this - that maybe his reluctance to talk about it is his way of saying, "leave, please, just leave".

He is not very verbally expressive, and it has been up to me to read between the lines. If you leave it up to him to read between the lines, he may end up reading what I am reading. What is the message he will read that you are sending?

I don't know what my husband's message is - I have to divine it. I am very tired of that.

I will tell you that each and every time he has to ask you, he is essentially starting over if you haven't told him the truth, the whole truth, before that.

Take the lead, and tell him your story. You will see great relief in his eyes, and feel it in your relationship.

Then, tell him to come here for support.

Schoolbus

I think Hiker is WAY off base here... but it is this type of [********************** Not everyone had a spouse that was willing to do things required to allow for recovery.... ************would have you believe that EVERYONE that follows the MB program will recover. This is simply not true. Many will... some, sadly, will not.

But Hiker... it is important to be honest with your spouse. As BS will decide for themselves what level of information they need to move forward... or perhaps decide to leave the M if certain lines in the sand were crossed. That should be their choice to make and it should NOT be influenced by lies and deciet

Aphelion and Schoolbus - wonderful posts and great advice.

Schoolbus - I'm presuming you have conveyed these thoughts to your husband?

I did in fact sit down with my wife when she came back home and she walked through this exactly as you described answering all questons. Answered questions for months. Walked through things over and over again. She hated doing it but it has lead to a pretty decent recovery IMO.

From Penalty Kill


Speaking as a FWW, good idea or not is beside the point. I think that if this is what your H wants you to do you should do it. Pretty straightforward - you have to go on the assumption that he knows what it will take for him to heal.

In my case, my H asked for the truth I gave it to him. He was one who wanted to know the minute details. Not everyone is like that, but he was.

It's like pulling off a bandaid by millimeters - wouldn't it be better just to rip it off? Either way it's going to hurt, don't kid yourself, so it's better to just have the pain out of the way.

But I must say that I object to the ridiculous notions that the 1) the original poster should give greater credence to those posters in recovered marriages, and 2) that a poster's difference of opinion is somehow "damaging".

Just my $.02

I could not agree more. Well said.

I knew of some sexual things that OW did for my then-H. I found out thru snooping efforts, not by asking him.

I can say with all honesty I found those things were indeed filthy and not for the faint of heart to read about. I don't consider myself a prude, but if eliminating on someone during sex (and we're not talking only liquid) is whats consider un-filthy, then call me PRUDE to infinity.

(I apologize for the graphic detail, folks)

Thats just a taste of what was going on between the two of them.

Jo

I've read the whole thread here, and what I see Hiker saying is that you need to be sensitive about your partners feelings when you tell them what they want to know. I don't see where he is telling anybody to lie or deceive them. I don't see that he is telling the BS they can't ask certain questions. I think he has been saying the BS needs to be careful that they might hear something they wish they didn't. He didn't say don't ever ask. And isn't he saying that there are ways of telling the truth that might be less hurtful than others.

Just my take.

Mickey, scroll back to page 1 and reread. This is what Hiker posted:

From How to Survive An Affair:

"I caution against asking (and often recommend not answering)comparative questions, particularly about physical attributes, sexual prowess, and personality. Questions in this category include “Did your lover have (a) bigger or better _____ than I do?” or “Was your lover better or more creative in bed than I am?” These kinds of questions don’t serve any real purpose in terms of the healing process and usually just amplify the pain and jealousy the injured partner feels. If you are the cheater and your partner asks you a comparative question of this nature, you should simply remind them that the question isn’t a very healthy one and that you don’t intend to answer it. Reassure them that you are willing to be completely honest, but that you also feel responsible for not sharing illicit details of the affair that serve no function."

There is no cult following here MEDC. Not everyone likes the Harley Koolaid. Not anyone claims that drinking such Koolaid will ALWYS result in a saved marriage.

It just makes sense to back the fastest horse because the chances of being successful are increased that way.

Big K,

I have told him this more times than I can count.

I'm still waiting for the story.

Yesterday, I found out, from OW, that I needed to "get rid of" some furniture. I had asked repeatedly for my husband to tell me the story, so I could rid my house of what I needed to get rid of. He just isn't willing to open up to me.

This has set me back to square one. ALL THE WAY BACK. I told him yesterday, that his lies of omission are worse than anything - and now I don't even know what questions to ask, so I suppose I must ask EVERYTHING.

That, I am afraid, will be VERY painful. For the both of us.

((((Schoolbus))))

I totally understand.

b3....,

I would like to make a suggestion. I fall in the camp of telling your H everything he wants to know. I also think there is a difference between "radical' honesty, and 'brutal' honesty.

If I could make a suggestion to you and your H, I would suggest to your H that he write down his questions or at least the major ones and then write down WHY he needs to know, and how this knowledge will help HIM. If he does this and then goes back a few days later and decides HE MUST know the answer to a particular question he should ask it.

Do you see my point??? Perhaps not. IT is NOT your call as to what he needs to know, but having been on this site for many years, it behoves him to think about what, and why he needs to know something. Offer him the chance to really think about it with the assurances that you will answer anything he asks.

He really may need to know. I would also encourage you to think about what YOU know of the affair, and some of the facts that may be asked. Know in your mind how to answer them truthfully but with care.

Want an example, most of us guys do worry to some extent about physical details "was he bigger than me". If the answer is yes, then say yes. "Was he better in bed?" If the answer is yes, then before you say yes, ask him for the opportunity to explain IF there is an explanation.

What do I mean? Was he better because of the excitement of an illicit affair? Did he do some things that your H could do if he so chose to do? Was it the "feelings" you had? If so could you have those "feelings" for your H.

I am of the opinion that some questions have Yes/No answers while others require discussion, and considerably more thought.

So consider asking your H to write them down, and consider why he wants to know them. You already know some of the answers will hurt him...he knows it as well. The affair hurt worse than about anything. But, the point is to NOT paint him into a corner nor to help him paint himself into a corner.

"Yes he was bigger, however, you do some thing much better."

No lies, but ways out if they are possible.

The truth is there is no way this won't be painful and you both know it. It will pain you because you know you are hurting him. It will pain him because he already knows the worst thing...you chose another man. He is looking for hope that YOU could be happy with him.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I stick by what I said. You don't know who the fastest horse is just because there was a spouse willing to work on things. Two of the people I respect most on this site... Believer and MM have not been as LUCKY as you when it comes to their spouse working on things. Their opinion means every bit as much as your fast horse.

MEDC - I never said otherwise. I also suggest that you would find both of those people offering MB advice. I made NO comment about the state of the marriage or recovery. NONE. It was not my quote.

Listen Hiker45, I am happily married and happily recovered. Had my FWH not answered every specific minute question I asked I would be divorced. I know what positions, what she looked like naked, (unfortunately I had the opportunity to see her nude and I know for a fact he told the truth) I know where they "did it", I know what they talked about, I know how it first began and I know how it ended. I know that he looked forward to seeing her and great details about how he was feeling while pursuing the affair. In short, I know everything that filthy slut knows about him and their disgusting relationship.

Yes I still view the infidelity in such terms. But I as I type that I'm also completely calm and happy to know that my true loving husband is here with me, and he respected me enough, and trusted me enough to reveal all that filth to me. He is a great man, my husband. An incredible man, in fact.

I don't ever have "movies" or suffer from visions of rubbish. My husband's adultery is in the past and does not intrude upon our happy life together at all.

If he had taken your advice I would not have ever been able to "get over it".

Word to the wise.

Its my understanding, from sessions with Steve H., that not all marriages should be saved at any/all cost. There are severe cases, such as mine, where the marriage was too far gone and toxic.

To the point, I don't think there is a cult-following here fostering the belief stated above. In my years here I have seen several very severe stories where MB members suggested alternatives to restoring the marriage, but still supported that individual in recoverying their sanity through their divorce.

Jo

To Resilient's point, sometimes the definition of success IS divorce. Not every marriage can and should be saved. However, using these principles can certainly help if there is a chance.

In all the years I have been here I have NEVER EVER seen anyone claim that "everyone who follows the MB program will recover." So this must be a very, very secret "cult" that no one seems to know about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Sitting here pondering the fact this thread is 3 pages long, has now 72 responses, and the original poster has not responded to the original post.

wtf?

It's 5 pages in Texas, hunny! **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

funny how when I was a member of a certain group here, it would be exceptionally rare to be edited. Now the edits are flying. Cute. yep, she does like you guys.

MEDC Dr Harley IS the fastest horse on this site. And if advice on these forums contradicts HIS advice then I will follow him if that's OK with you. His advice also enables the BS to move on even if marriage recovery is unsuccessful.

I am not sure why you are even beating this horse here.

That is what happens when WS doesn't like the answers...off to somewhere else..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

as far as the other comments flying around....you're all missing many valid points while trying to get yours accross...listen....and pay attention and have some mutual respect...

this is one reason you all don't hear from me that often... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

your tinfoil cap is a little crooked tonight, friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

yep. that's what it must be.

Pages must be larger here in Kansas? I thought everything was bigger in Texas? Can't you get Aquanet in 5 gallon buckets?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hunny, I have a KEGGER of Aquanet!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now I know why Texas has so many tornados.... y'all let go of an Aquanet kegger, and the wind starts swirlin' and the clouds start getting dark and next thing ya know a trailer park comes up missing!

LMAO! Good one, SD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mel's turn.

everyone knows DOROTHY and TOTO live in Kansas, silly!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, but that lady with the house on her was from Texas. <ducks>

I think that silly gal was a flatheadedyankeegal, Resilient. Anyhoo, she shore looked like a flatheaded yankeegal after that house flattened her silly [censored]! bwhahahahaa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Methinks Mel IS a Texas tornado! Anyways...Toto has long passed and Dorothy is living in Gov. Asst. Housing downtown, and is rumor to smoke a little weed every now and then. The flat-headed lady's daughter is now the Governor of the State. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MelodyLane,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you thought Hiker's quote made some sense when you thought it was from Dr. Harley.

And since I last posted at least a half dozen folks have come on and said things like "our marriage would have been finished if my spouse had not told me everything I wanted to know."

Hiker isn't saying withhold anything or lie about it. And to me its like he is saying be careful about what you ask and be sensitive about how you tell the truth and he is talking about certain kinds of questions. . . the kind we can't even write here.

But maybe I don't get the fuss over this. Is it just because Dr. Harley didn't say it?

That's a direct quote from hikers first post.

Melody Lane never thought it made sense - she was surprised to read he "said" it and then found out he didn't.

Yes, he most certainly is as I showed you in the quote he posted:


I did think that if Dr. Harley said that, to my great shock, that there might be some sound reasoning behind it because I trust his judgment. However, he didn't say it and the view that one should withhold information cannot be supported.

All the "fuss" is because anyone with even a modicum of experience who has been through recovery knows that refusing information is a very bad idea. VERY BAD. Very few betrayed spouses would tolerate it.

Dr. Phil is a strong advocate to not tell the details... the very intimate ones. In fact, he advised a woman on his show to NOT tell the details beyond a general outline.
I happen to agree with Dr. H on this... but there is a school of thought that advocates not telling even when asked. That is not advocating lying... it is merely saying it is not healthy to discuss certain things.
I disagree... but certainly can see their point.

MEDC it is most certainly advocating lying by omission and refusal to answer.

MEDC, in reality it is very unhealthy to withhold details about an affair because trust cannot be restored. I frankly don't care if Santa Claus advocates it, withholding vital information about an affair is stupid and counterproductive. The solution to adultery is HONESTY, not more secrets. And many BS' would never tolerate that sort of disrespectful treatment. I sure would not.

Radical honesty is one of the reasons why Dr. Harley is so successful and others are such dismal failures.

The elephant in the living room HAS to go!

b3774608--

You haven't posted any thoughts regarding all the advice here, so I thought I'd bump it up for you to find.

I, personally, categorized my questions around five main questions/intents underlying my need to know the answer to any question.

• Understand the relationship between you and OM (other man)
• Understand the attraction between you and OM
• Understand the state of our relationship during your affairs
• Understand the current state of our recovery
• Help manage triggers and “mental monkeys”

By "mental monkeys" I'm referring to those nagging, loose threads as a result of the affair that plague me. For example, "What hotels did you have sex at with your OM?" I need to know this not to avoid the hotels or get angry when I pass them, but to ensure that if I have friends or relatives stay in a hotel in our town, I don't have to worry about the "mental monkey" on my back wondering, "Was this one of the hotels they used?".

I believe they are fairly broad categories of questions but summarize the things that are important for me to know.

Blessings to you. Let us know how you are doing and how your husband is doing. Encourage him to read the Marriage Builders materials.

BigK,

I guess you didn't read anything I wrote beyond my first post as I clarified my position several times, including the use of an example.

Mel,

You are quoting Dr. Gunzburg, not me. I included that citation merely to demonstrate that not everyone agrees that every last detail needs to be revealed for recovery to occur. You are putting emphasis on one line of Dr. Gunzburg's citation and seem to be trying to make it my philosophy even though I have explained how I think such a situation is best handled. There is a difference.

Overall, I could probably get the same kind of responses if I suggested that maybe we shouldn't take the Bible literally when it says that the earth was created in six days.

That tells me that MB has become like a religion to some people, with its own brand of fanatics who are intolerant of any other view. Fortunately I think Dr. Harley is more flexible than many of his so-called philosophic adherents.

I have seen my posts mis-characterized at least a dozen times so I'm done trying to make my point here.

About the "details"... I think the WS should answer any questions about the A that are posed by the BS, even if they address the most intimate details.

I've asked my FWW many questions about the SF she enjoyed with the OM, and I think she's answered most of them honestly. I believe that this has helped our recovery.

Early on I asked questions about what in particular she enjoyed. That was basically "showstopper" time - if there were any particular acts that she enjoyed that I was not capable of doing or preferred not to do, then would it make sense to continue the recovery? Would she remain unfulfilled during our SF? Would she thinking about those things she did with the OM that I'm not willing or able to do with her?

Thankfully I did not come across any such "showstoppers" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I disagree with MelodyLane on one thing - if my FWW had enjoyed doing something in particular with the OM, I think I'd likely be open to trying it - not only to meet her need for SF, but also to associate that act with us, not the OM. Unless it was something degrading or disgusting of course. In that case, the OM is welcome to that memory.

Funny to read that people wonder where the original poster is. There are many reasons as to why they have not replied. From my own experience, I have taken a few days before getting back because of work, going out of town, etc. Sometimes things just happen and I lose track of checking.

All said on that. Here are my opinions. You wanted to know if this was a good idea. I see two reasons why you could be reluctant to answer these questions. Either your afraid that your spouse will leave you or your afraid that he is going to learn more about the A than what they already knows.

If they was to decide to leave, that is their choice and has every right to do so since the marriage vows have been broken. I think though you may be more afraid to the questions and them finding more out they you want them to.

You had said that the both of you are working things out and have been seeing improvements. That is good. This makes me feel that your spouse may not leave you, but don't quote me on that. Your spouse has obviously told you that they know the answers may hurt them and you may not like the questions. This makes me feel like they have given it alot of thought into what they need to know in order to heal.

So my advice is, don't play your spouse for a fool. Don't try to mask anything on the questions he asks. If they are open ended and you need clarification, then ask. Don't try to lie. One thing a BS is good at after exposing an A is investigating and becoming a human lie detector. If they keep repeating questions or sounds like a broken record, it's because they are not feeling your being open. You have to earn their trust back.

You had indicated that you had read Dr. Harley's books. I would get them out and reread them again. It's good information. And if your spouse decides to not leave and you both continue to work things out, I strongly suggest following Dr. Harley's methods, since you said you don't want to let this happen again. A's happen because of leading an independent life or secret life. You both will need to be transparent to each other. The both of you will know each other inside out. Follow the policy of joint agreement and keep the min 15 hours of undivided attention each week.

This part may raise debate but, if you ever find yourself thinking of the OP, then let your spouse know. Replace that negative thoughts and feelings with positive about your spouse and family. I don't recall where I read this at but I think it was on this site. So if that means calling them at work, email, cellphone, text message, whatever. I would let them know. This i think will help in dealing with what caused the thoughts to happen and how to prevent them or lessen them from triggering.

Although you had not indicated if the A was an EA or PA nor how long it was. But I wish you luck and think everything will work out in the end.

Lost.

It's funny how different people deal with posting and checking.

Form me, I think some of the wondering about the original poster was to encourage them to repost to establish the dialog. It can be daunting to see all these responses and different opinions. Since it was their first post, I was worried we scared them off.

I remember my first "real" post.

I typed it, edited it, re-edited it and clicked "Continue" only to find out I had to "Preview" it and then post it.

I clicked "OK, submit" and then went back to the forum, and read the post I just wrote/edited/re-edited/Previewed/Posted.

I went back to the listing to see, to my delight, that 1 person had read my post. Then I realized that I was that one person. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Then I clicked "refresh" and wondered why no one had responed to my two page post yet.

Oh, well, I've learned how things work here and just don't want to frighten a new poster away, especially when they came here for such important help.

Blessings

Actually, you included the citation to support your point and never said - UNTIL NOW - that you didn't advocate it. In fact, it seemed to only serve to support your own advice to the poster to "dodge these questions." If you didn't agree with it, wouldn't common sense dictate that you might not post it in the first place? Call me a silly ho, but when I post a quotation, it is not because I DON'T agree with it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> [or if I DO, I believe I would say so to make my point]

But alas, after all this time you admit you DON'T agree with it so there is nothing to disagree about, is there?

In that case, your dramatic lecture about "religious fanatacism" and "intolerance" is a little out of place, isn't it? [and overwrought, IMO] But it sure sounded cute, so maybe you could save it for more appropriate circumstances? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

p.s. You do understand that "tolerance" is needed for OPPOSING VIEWS? "Tolerance" does not mean everyone has to agree with you. Just an FYI on the nature of tolerance.

Well, i happen to be in the camp of those that wanted to know and feel the BS has a right to know. But Dr. Phil is NOT advocating dishonesty... what he is trying to convince people is that no good comes out of knowing those details and that they will not be discussed because they will only harm the marriage. I do not agree with this mentality... but I can see that his motives are good.

ML... it does seem to matter to you who says it. Earlier in this thread when you believed it was something Dr. H said... you saw the point in not discussing "comparatives." It just seems that if Dr. H says it... it must be true.... if someone else says it.... can't be true because it isn't the MB way. I like to read and absorb a lot of information from different sources and judge those things based on their merits and intentions.



and then this....which seems to contradict the first post

No, its because of a long history of listening to Dr. Harley and understanding how he thinks and how he comes to his conclusions. He carefully and methodically supports his every opinion. I have nothing but the greatest respect for his opinions because of his track record.

That being said, I was WRONG in agreeing with something just because I thought he said it, and immediately thought better of it. Shame on me! After I thought about it a second, I came back and asked Hiker the PAGE # so I could look up his reasoning myself.

But, the point isn't really WHO says it at all, the issue is: IS IT A GOOD PRACTICE? That is what counts.

It doesn't matter what Dr. Phil's "motivations" are or aren't [the road the he11 is paved with good intentions], what matters is what is best for the marriage. All opinions are not EQUAL, in other words, some opinions are downright stupid. And withholding facts, aka lying by ommission, is STUPID, no matter WHO says it is and no matter WHAT the "motivations." It is a BAD practice that only causes more harm than good.

And I am sure that Dr. H learns new things every day too.... some things that he thought best for a marriage 10 years ago, he may find problematic today. We evolve and therefore it is important to be open to learning new ways of doing things and not being myopic to one persons view points... no matter his track record today.

I am not sure what all this has to do with the subject at hand, but would point out that we are here to learn and discuss MARRIAGE BUILDERS principles. The sign on the door is Marriage Builders, in case you didn't notice. Folks don't come here to learn about Dr. Phil or Aunt Sally, but MARRIAGE BUILDERS. If folks wanted to discuss Dr. Phil, I imagine they would go there, don't you?

Oh, okay ML... that is a ridiculous statement. Imagine me in counseling with SH... I bring up a question that I heard this on the Dr. Phil show and wanted to hear your opinion on it.... I can just hear him saying... Well, WE are Marriage Builders and if you want to talk about Dr. Phil's point... go to his show. We ONLY discuss MB here. Ridiculous.

Hello everyone-

Rather than argue about "what's best for the marriage" in general, perhaps it's possible that "what's best" may change depending on the individuals involved.

Some people don't want details. They just want the affair to be over, so the marriage can move on.

Some people need to know the details in order to move on.

People are different and respond many ways to stress. I don't think it's possible to find the one best way to deal with an affair. Thus both Dr. Phil and Dr. Harley are very successful despite opposite views.

So- I think this question should be left to the betrayed spouse. Whatever they need to heal, the formerly wayward spouse should supply. Otherwise the marriage will not survive.

Just my opinion-
~Saturn

I agree 100%.

MEDC, what is ridiculous is coming to the MB forum expecting to learn about a principle that CONTRADICTS MB principles. If someone wants to learn about Dr. Phil, wouldn't common sense dictate they go to his website? I don't know about you, but I don't go to the Baptist Church to hear about Catholicism and vice versa, do you?

This is the prevailing opinion on this forum, ie: radical honesty that is dictated by the BS.

ML... a person comes here to learn about MB... no doubt. That does not mean that they cannot hear about other methods... even those that may differ in points with the Harley's. Knowledge can only be a benefit everyone. Understanding all sides is strength.... at least outside of Texas. Sorry, Mel... but on this point, you are fumbling the snap... just like your fellow Texan Romo.

MEDC, no one has said they "cannot hear of other methods," as you have seen on this thread, they HAVE. And that "other method" has been soundly shot down. But if folks thought those other programs were more applicable, I betcha a smart fella would just mosey on over there and learn all about it, don't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The focus here is not "ALL METHODS," but MB methods. That is the point of this forum.

Let me put it this way, MEDC, when you come on a forum whose focus is MB principles, don't be too surprised when those principles are defended from contradicting, stupid philosophies. The folks come here to learn about Marriage Builders, after all, because they know of MB's successful track record.

So, if someone wants to bring forth a contradicting principle, they should not cry like a gurly man if someone challenges their opinion. They should try and substantiate their opinion. Unfortunately, no one has been able to support the opposing position of dishonesty and that is what counts.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

you are most certainly a "unique" personality Mel.

"i also thought i needed to know everything about my H's affair

and bless his heart, he answered me

now i wish that i had only known the facts that didn't involve every sexual act and word and thought

i still close my eyes and see it in such detail because it was told to me in such detail

i can't seem to erase the pictures

maybe knowing this would help your H to better choose what he wants to know

tell him, yes, but tell it as you would want to hear it....not as it would be painted

if that makes sense "

Eav, I thought you did a great job describing it. Yes, it does make sense to me.

Hiker, I read your example and I can see your point and I agree with you, but then I am not in recovery so my opinion must not be worth much. Some folks seemed determined to turn this into a black and white issue. I'm one of those that believes like MEDC that its a good thing to hear other reasonable opinions without having someone twist your words and tell you that you are flat wrong.

Honesty vs. Dishonesty IS a black and white issue!!!

Oh and MEDC, about Dr. Phil...


If true, it would certainly explain Dr. Phil's rationale about not telling all the details, now wouldn't it? I'm not sure what it would take to check with the Texas State Board of Examiners of Psychologists to confirm this if you are interested...Here is the link to the article talking about the published book...


Mrs. W

not interested... I've heard this all before. I don't think it impacts his credibilty today. Heck, there are a lot of people on this site that have had affairs that are now strong advocates to telling everything... people grow. I take his rationale at face value. It can be very harmful to some to know the details. His view is pretty widely held and even though I do not agree with it... I can understand the thought behind it.
We can dig up dirt on anyone. Heck, there are people out there that think Dr. H is a quack and that he skews statistics for his own benefit. I prefer to think the best of people until I have a reason to doubt their motivations.

Oh please, Dr. Phil is not a "quack" because someone thinks so, but because he gives out stupid advice. The advice that deceit is the solution to infidelity is bad advice that can't be supported rationally. It is "harmful" to have an affair, it is not "harmful" to know the truth. That advice is what ruins his credibility.

A persons credibility is determined by the validity of their opinion. Just because someone THINKS Dr. Harley is a quack, doesn't mean he IS.

The thing is that no one except the BS is in any position to decide what the BS needs to know. It can undoubtedly be damaging to some BS's knowing all the gruesome details. But that is STILL for the BS and no one else to decide here.

And quite frankly, if you are not a BS and have never been in a position of trying to recover your marriage you have no idea apart from fruitless speculation of how YOU would feel if you were in that position and what YOU would need to know. The view is somewhat different looking from the outside in.

really the original question from the poster was if it was a good idea to answer the questions that the BS had. We all agree on that. Weather the BS wants details or not is going to up to that person. Either way the information recieved is going to be painful and that is something they both will have to work through. In either case, honesty is the only way to go, after all it was lies that put them there in the first place so why go back down that road.

agreed

BK... you are becoming an expert at twisting words around. He does not advocate deceit. You just don't get it. I don't agree with his position... but you are doing nothing more than twisting this around. He may be advocating not telling certain details... he is not advocating lying. What he is saying is it is his belief that certain information is harmful and not necessary to be discussed. Again, even ML when she thought Dr. H had said it saw the harm in discussing certain information.

And I would disagree with your assessment of Dr. P. You are entitled to your opinion.... even when you are wrong. And using your own words here... just because you think Dr. Phil gives stupid advice... doesn't mean he does. YOU maybe just don't get it.

And the funny thing is... I agree that a BS has a right to know. I can just see the other side of this and know first hand how damaging some of that information is. If I ever go through this again... I will choose to not know certain details.

agreed

MEDC - I never even mentioned Dr Phil - I have no opinion on him whatsoever and was making NO comment about him or his advice.

sorry, that was ML.

And what we are saying is that this is BAD ADVICE that impedes recovery. The BS is the only one qualified to decide what is and isn't "harmful" to his recovery. No one else. Honesty is the solution to infidelity, not more deceit, not more secrecy.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm...what about this thought?

The BS should be the one to make the choice on what he NEEDS to know to make the choices to continue his marriage and work on recovery.

But a good MC would likely caution that BS to think about the questions that they WANT to know the answers to vs. the ones that they NEED to know. And to inform them that they need to think about the long term plan of their recovery...that some of the 'visuals' that may result of some of their more graphic questions may be VERY difficult for them to deal with during their recovery.

A FWS might GENTLY provide that same caution...

But...the FWS SHOULD STILL answer ANY questions that the BS asks...primarily because that's a key way that the foundation for future trust between them will be built. Any hedging or lying at this point does FAR more harm than good towards recovery.

Thoughts?

I think that is the general thrust Owl and the consensus of this thread.

Exactly, Owl. Exactly.

I agree with you on that owl. the BS should really weigh what they really need to know to what they think they need to know. but as to this case from the poster we really don't know what the BS wants to ask, so we can just only assume and form our own opinions. never the less, if the BS decides to get into details the WS/FWS should answer the questions. The trust needs to be rebuilt and the lies to stop. I'm wondering if the BS is having questions of their own. I know I would, but I'm still working on that process. If it was myself asking questions, details are not of the importances as to the facts and to put my mind at rest. If that was me ofcourse.

sounds good for me Owl.

One more question. You see, some of you are recovered BSs, but does any one of you know for certain that you really got the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? How could you know this?

You couldn't.

You can only compare against what CAN be verified and historical intimacy.

You never really know.

Any liar worth their weight also knows this and could answer to that end.

You can never know 100% for sure.

I do however think that for most "moral" people the guilt would get to them.

I would not / did not believe my wife until we were well into recovery. Consistency is the key. Builds trust.

Also in my case the OM told the same story. I have enough verifiable stuff.

Wrong. It is NOT bad advice. Not telling all details does not impede recovery. I have seen MANY,MANY marriages fully and happily recovered without all details told.I have seen many marriages IMPEDED because the BS kept going round in circles with endless questions that do nothing but stall recovery. (Now THAT is what I call impeding)It works both ways. This is not just a recovery for the BS. This is a recovery of a MARRIAGE.The WS DOES have a say in the recovery and quite frankly is usually the one setting the rules on when and if recovery actually starts. The BS in most cases that I have observed on this site and many others usually is the one doing all of the work and the MOST negotiating to save the marriage.

The WS has as much right to decide the WISDOM of what details to go into the BS as the BS does to say what details they need to know. It is stupid to suggest that all details must be told and the BS gets to have the right to decide.(Sounds good though) There is no reason in the world that any BS with any self respect and self esteem just HAS to know all the details of an affair to recover. That IS NOT TRUE. IT is only an OPINION and can be very misleading when trying to help a BS recover. I can not remember ONE BS on this site that decided to end the recovery because there was some details left out. As long as the WS shows remorse and ends the affair and will acknowledge the hurt caused, is USUALLY the most important factor into how fast the relationship moves forward. Many can live quite happily with less than full details if those things are shown with action and word.

As a matter of fact, it is only ONES PERCEPTION of the truth that we are speaking of. One can PERCEIVE a person is being honest, when in fact they are lying to you. Happens all the time. So it is NOT the truth that help recovers a marriage, but YOUR PERCEPTION that you are being told the truth.

It is YOUR PERCEPTION that the only way to have a successful recovery is by having every thought that goes through your head about the affair be answered to what you perceive to be the truth. It is entirely possible that they STILL lied to you in some little detail and you feel happily recovered and not know you were "lied" to.

As long as you believe that you HAVE to know all the details to recover, then THAT will be your self fulling prophecy. It isn't a fact. One does NOT need to know all details and one does NOT need to know all details to have a perfectly happy and successful recovery. To say otherwise is irresponsible and a LIE.

Oh, I see...truthiness works.

Hear that MB...Radical Honesty has been replaced by Keep's theory of Radical Truthiness.

W

ah now I get it. Truthiness. Of course.

Bwhahahahaha

Sorry, keepmovnfrwd, but your complete and utter lack of knowledge of what it takes to recover from adultery is breathtaking. And completely contradictory to what Dr. Harley, an experienced expert advocates. Your post sounds like the bitter screed of a very fogged out WS, to be quite frank. It takes complete and total honesty to restore trust. Or at least the WILLINGNESS to be completely honest to the level that BS requires.

However, the BS determines that LEVEL as they are the ONLY one qualified to do so. It is not my "perception" that radical honesty is required for full recovery, but the educated, experienced opinion of Dr. Harley, the one who HAS helped untold # of betrayed spouses recover. How many have you helped recover? Do you have the same credentials? I thought not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyone who has been the victim of an affair and has been through recovery will tell you he is right. Honesty is the solution to adultery, not more secrecy, not more lies.


What nonsense; the rapist does not get to decide what it will take for the victim to recover. Only the victim gets to decide that. The rapist caused the damage and therefore, isn't qualified. The notion that the victimizer has a say in what his victim needs is nonsense.

Perhaps you would benefit from reading some of Dr. Harley's words about honesty, it seems to be his "perception" too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />:

1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

From:

Four Rules to Guide
Marital Recovery After an Affair
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Is dat a new Arkansas word?? **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now now Mel. You are letting the truth get in the way of a trolling

Keep Movin.... your post goes way too far. Just like it is not ridiculous for Dr. P to say that certain details are harmful and should be avoided as to prevent further injury (his opinion)... it is also not ridiculous for Dr. H to suggest that the BS has a right to have all their questions answered. They are in different camps on this to be sure... but both have merit. But you put the WS and the BS on an even playing field and frankly, they are not. The WS is the one that needs to make amends as they are the one that put the M in the [email]cr@pper.[/email] The WS is the one that needs to eventually bend to the needs of the BS... because frankly, the WS has created a situation where their needs come in a distant second in this phase of recovery.
I don't think deatils are NEEDED for everyone to heal. I think they are needed for some and not for others. The amount of detail can be debated here... Dr. Phil suggests a more general approach (leaving out certain things like penis size, positions, etc), Dr. H suggests a more open approach. Most on this site go with Dr. H, (and then change their mind when they find out he thought otherwise... as if having an independant thought would kill them) and rightfully so... he has a track record. But there are other approaches. We really believe Dr. H to be more successful than others (of course that is not based on objectively reported evidence... just what is reported on this site by a man that previously taught statistics) but that does not mean that other approaches are to be dismissed with prejudice. Dr. H has proven he can get results in some marriages and few doubt his success.

People need to use common sense as well as a plan that they are comfortable with. The MB plan is not for everyone. It requires a lot of a BS at a time when they MAY be least able to give anything. But the results can be great as evidenced by some couples represented on these boards.

Infidelity is a difficult topic. Emotions run high...outcomes are iffy at best (even here). Any and all information that can be useful to help a marriage or even a person recover from this assault should be considered.

And I have to say that in all my time at MB... this ranks int he top 5 for the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

Uh oh. I think I just caught a waft of aquanet...


Who would that be pray tell...

I think I'll take my chances with Dr Harley rather than Dr Phil - possibly in an affair marriage and had an affair in 1998. UM yep. I'll stick with Dr Harley who is still married and in love with his first wife.

OK always like a point of agreement. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MEDC, keepmovnfrwd is an angry, embittered troll that only comes on this board to spread his hate and anger and condemn other board members. He doesn't come to help, but to harm. He has a particular hatred, for some bizarre reason, against Mortarman, and was actually edited and LOCKED last month for his screeds against him. Just click on his name and go back and read his hatefilled diatribes. He is just a troll.

yep, me too... as I have said numerous times. I just don't dismiss others so readily.

Also appears that you have some info on Dr. Phil that no one else has regarding his current marriage.

As far as the Aquanet... it's not one person here... there are quite a few that think that just because Dr. H might say something it is Gospel. It reminds me of a discussion here with Suzet and the reply she was awaiting and eventually got from Dr. H. As I said all along back then... if he comes back and says her actions were okay (as Suzet reported) I would tell him right to his face he was dead wrong. Everyone can learn and everyone can make mistakes. It's human nature.

I see that and hence my comment about his post. It really was quite out there.

You do a web search and you can find dirt on anyone. Doesn't make it true. Heck, there could be people out there reporting that Dr. H has had an affair... or illegitimate children. Doesn't make it true. One thing I learned as a cop was to be skeptical of information in the press and to use my eyes and ears to make assessments.

Oh no, not necessarily "gospel," but very high respect after hearing him support and substantiate his opinions with facts, evidence and reason in an intelligent manner for years. When you watch someone who is consistently intelligent, insightful and usually right, you develop a confidence. Not a "gospel," but a firm respect based on long history.

MrsW posted the link and article above MEDC. I have no special knowledge. I also said his second marriage is Possibly the result of an affair given the timings.

Actually I quite like Dr Phil as it happens. But I have no idea what his approach is for marital recovery. In fact there are so many experts on adultery but precious few with any credible plan of recovery from it. That is what I like about Marriage Builders. Anyone can do an autopsy but Dr Harley seems to be the only one I have found who can do a resurection.

MEDC, that is very, very profound. I've always respected you because, even though you gave me a hard time you were gracious and honest with me, never twisted what I said, you judged on the facts. I'm like Believer, I sometimes agree with you, sometimes I don't. But your integrity is faultless, absolutely faultess.

BK, I got your possibly the first time. My point is... do you think that by tomorrow there could be a link posted here to discredit Dr. H.... sure there could be. It doesn't make it true... that is my point. Throwing it out there is your way to discredit the man. Dr. H stands tall without knocking down someone else. That's what both you and ML have missed here. Dr. H has shown himself to be knowledgeable in dealing with infidelity. Just because someone else has another approach does not take away from Dr. H's expertise. He is far from perfect and we really don't know what % of marriages benefit from his program... but he definitely helps some people. Dr. Phil... like him or not helps some people. I just like to take in the best that everyone has to offer and use my brain to decide what fits into my life and my moral code.... so that I do not become so enamoured with any person... but the ideals that they express today. So that if the person falls tomorrow... as many do... I am not left wondering what my house is built on. JMHO.

That is the greatest compliment I can be paid. Thank you.

OK MEDC - you know you're in trouble when KiwiJ agrees with you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Also, FWIW, as an FWW, Dr Phil's Relationship Rescue book was one of the first I turned to, along with HNHN, to recover my marriage. I knew if I could meet all the requirements and the extremely good "recovery" processes (exercises to do with your spouse which are EXCEPTIONALLY good ie the 2 minute kiss and sitting opposite one another and answering and asking the questions set out which are VERY hard and intimate) I would be able to move forward.

When I found MB I printed out EVERY article and bound them in a folder (which made a lot of people here laugh). You know, real sprial binding. I still have them all. I printed out the letters from WS's and substituted X for the OM, where Dr Harley said "OM".

No I don't.


Exactly what is his approach? Where can I find his program?


I very much agree with this.

As I said I do like Dr Phil MEDC.

MEDC, what you seem to have missed is that this not about
"another approach" but about a FAILED APPROACH. Two contradictory opinions cannot both be right. That would be silly. I am sure Dr. Phil is really cute and really nice. I could not care less. What I care about is his philosophy about adultery as it relates to this issue. He doesn't just have an "alternative" view, he has a STUPID VIEW. It is a STUPID VIEW that the WS should selectively impart facts about the affair to his victim. This view DOES NOT WORK.

Dr. Harley is right about radical honesty and Dr. Phil is WRONG. They can't both be right with opposing views. The fact of the matter is that I have seen MORE DAMAGE caused from lying, withholding, dodging the truth than I have from anything on this forum barring the actual affair. It is destructive and never fails to impede recovery. Just ask any BS who has been through it. So, don't mistake this as an objection to an "alternative" view, it is an objection to a STUPID approach that does not work.

BK... I could have a link discrediting YOU here tomorrow. The interent is a crazy place with lots of [email]cr@ppy[/email], untrue information that can be CREATED in a moment to sut anyones needs.

I Googled my name once and found one of my papers (on Horace Mann) being sold on a web site. I was named as an educational analyst(I'm no such thing). The info out there can be created in a moment.... without your knowledge or consent.

DEAD WRONG. We are not talking lab science here. We are talking people. Different people respond to different things. It is not one size fits all. Some people respond to Plan A... Plan B... some respond to Plan FU..... some NEVER respond. To suggest that two plans that are not identical (and BTW, there are A LOT of similarities between their views) can not work with such a divrse group as human beings shows a complete lack of understanding the human being.
There were times as a cop where I could be nice and talk someone out of doing soemthing horrible. Other times it required an absolutely fierce response on my part. People are not lab rats ML... they react differently to different stimuli.

And again, ML... I will say that you are twisting words to suit your point here... no one has argued that dishonesty is the right thing to do... not me, not Dr. P... no one. You continue to throw that out there as though it has merit... it does not.

Wrongo, we are talking about the difference between being honest and being DISHONEST. Dishonesty works for NO ONE. Dishonesty doesn't "work" for some and not work for others. HONESTY is the solution to adultery, not "some" truth, not "selective" truth, but HONESTY, as dictated by the recovery needs of the BS. Dishonesty is good for NO MARRIAGE.

from Dr. Phil.com


Moving Forward After InfidelityWhether you're the one who has strayed from your relationship or you're the partner who feels betrayed, Dr. Phil can help you move forward.

Were you cheated on?


It is absolutely vital for you to move forward with life and love. Being willing to trust again is key. Take things one step at a time.


Don't try to make sense out of nonsense. Rationalizing your cheating spouse's behavior or sympathizing with him/her is pointless. It is never OK to go outside of your relationship to solve problems within a relationship. It's not your fault.


Time heals nothing. It is what you do with the time that matters.


Remember that it is better to be healthy alone than sick with someone else.


If your partner wants back in, he/she will have to earn his/her way back into the relationship. Renegotiate the relationship in a way that works for both of you.


There comes a point in time where you may have to draw a line and say, "That's it, I'm done. I'm not mad at you. I withdraw my feelings, I withdraw my emotions. You just go do whatever you're going to do because I'm not going to live like this anymore." Don't stay together for the children. Remember, kids would rather be from a broken home than live in one. They're much better off with one well-adjusted, happy, thriving parent, than they are with two who are cheating, lying, fighting, and living with stress and pressure.


If there was a child born of the infidelity, understand that your spouse will forever have a relationship with that child's other parent. You have to make the decision about whether you can resolve to be part of that or not.


Did you have an affair?



Own the problems that you created by having an affair. You cannot change what you don't acknowledge.


It is unfair to compare a new, exciting, taboo fantasy relationship to one you've been in for years where there are kids, bills to pay, a house to run and noses to wipe. That is a ridiculous comparison.


In order to resolve your relationship, contact with "the other person" must be cut off 100 percent. You can't work on dealing with the consequences of the affair while you're still having it.


Don't rely on your heart to tell you what to do; rely on your intellect. Do what logic tells you is the right thing to do.


Make the hard decisions. Either leave the marriage to free your partner, or commit to stay. Remember, checking out of one relationship before you finish it appropriately doesn't work.


Ask yourself: What are you doing to help your partner get past the affair?


Be mature enough to recognize that life is not always all about you and what feels good for you in the moment. If you are married and have children, you have an obligation and a commitment that far transcends what feels good.


Help the partner who did not have the affair find emotional closure. You must do whatever it takes until your partner finds it. If it requires you to check in with your spouse multiple times a day, then do it. It'll require you being where you're supposed to be, when you're supposed to be, 24 hours-a-day, seven days-a-week, so your spouse can trust you again. And you do it until.


If a child was born of the infidelity, you will have to have contact with the other person in order to be co-parents. And you do this the right way by not having any contact without your spouse's involvement. If you want to talk with the other person, then you do it with your spouse present.


Want to know if something is cheating? If you wouldn't do it with your spouse standing there, it's cheating.


If your marriage is over and you have children, understand that your relationship with your ex will never end. You will always at least be co-parents of your children. Build a new relationship as their allies.


Do you know what a healthy relationship is? Figure out what you want and behave your way to success.

You still have libel laws there don't you? It's not like action could not be taken against that site quoted.

Nope, that is the issue at hand. Dr Phil advocates dishonesty and you call this just "another approach." Let's stay clear on what we are talking about here. The issue is telling truth to the adultery victim.

You call it dishonesty... I say your statements are knowingly dishonest and misleading. And again. ML... YOU advocated and understood this appraoch when YOU thought it came from Dr. H. You are beginning to sound a bit hypocritical here.

Sounds like Dr. P and Dr. H agree on everything except the need to discuss the details.


1. Your relationship must be based on a solid, underlying friendship. Friends talk, laugh, share, and do things they're interested in together. Don't stop being friends just because you're each other's spouse.

2. Your relationship has to meet the needs of the two people involved. Understand what your partner's needs are so you can meet them. Figure out what your own needs are and communicate them. If your needs are not being met, communicate and negotiate. Don't let resentment build.

That is not a Plan MEDC

Sorry, mkeverydaycnt, here is what you wrote in case you forgot:



That, my friend, is called DISHONESTY.

Mel, did you ever sort out that little "dishonest" approach you had to family money.

Because me and my H are "family". We don't have secrets about money or anything else.

It is not dishonest to say to your spouse, those details will not be discussed. Again, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS APPRoaCH.... but you are not denying anything... you are saying that it is not healthy to get into that stuff. That is not a lie... it is a difference of opinion on how to handle things.

You have intentionally labeled it as lies to give your perspective more credibility... when it needed none. Dr. H's perspective is credible on its own.

Now, denying things would be lying... flat out lies. Saying that those details would only harm us more and therefore I am not getting into them is a different approach... nothing more, nothing less.

MEDC, why are you on here advocating Dr. Phil? You do realize this is Marriage Builders, right? And this forum is paid for by the Harleys. What is the point of all this Dr.Phil advocacy?

http://drphil.com/articles/category/5/21

But you did have a little secret, didn't you? Quite a few, in fact. I had to call your husband about it, I believe. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are clueless about this ML. It wasn't dishonesty when you thought Dr H said it. That, my friend is situational ethics and hypocritical.

I am not just advocating Dr. P... I am in fact saying I agree with Dr. H....I think there are schools of thought that were dismissed and my advocacy is one of knowledge ... not restricted to Dr. P's.

Funny how you avoided Kiwi's question Mel. You are really losing credibility in my eyes.

MEDC, this isn't even good spin. The opposite of honesty is DISHONESTY. Refusing to be honest about one's affair is dishonest and deceitful. Maintaining secrecy about one's affair is a LACK of honesty.

Not only is it dishonest, it is manipulative and disrespectful; destroying trust.

Mel... very sad to see you resort to such a low road in your communications. You are much smarter than you are coming across here. You know he is not advocating lies... yet to save face since you were ont he other side of the fence just this morning, you are running spin of your own. Sad, very sad indeed.

Of course this "school of thought" was dismissed. Dishonesty should be always be dismissed. There is nothing smart or clever about advocating stupid approaches, MEDC.

MEDC, this pissing match is getting you nowhere. You know very well what Dr Phil said and you cant' back peddle frm it. Any approach that advocates DISHONESTY is a losing proposition and cant be supported.

G' night, MEDC, get some better spin, dude. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Very sad Mel. You sound like a politician. Sad indeed.

Word

Yes, Mel, you did call my H and opened the door to more honesty in our M than had ever been. Never underestimate how grateful I am for that. I mean that. I was paralysed with fear at the time, although that is not how everyone saw it.

However, it works both ways. When I read your post on how dishonest you are about your family money, I wondered how your H would react to a similar phone call.

Don't be an [censored] Jen.

I presume you don't think the situations are in ANY way similar or as damaging?

In fact I don't think I have ever read something so low in my time on this site. WOW I'm stunned.

Adultery=Money issues. I guess that's the WW perspective.

Seriously Kiwi...You thank ML in one breath and then threaten her in the next...over ENTIRELY different situations-How would that call go? Hello, um yes, Mr. Melody Lane? Your wife spent $110 on face cream <gasp> How would he ever recover from such a revelation? Please make sure you have the name of a counselor that they can use handy!!! Or maybe even call 911 so that he could be resussitated! lol

Interesting to see just what the perspective is from the bottom of a liquor bottle though...thanks for that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

LOL MrsW

LOL I am completely sober. (Cheap shot BTW Mrs W). I just recognise hypocrisy and dishonesty when I see it.

To me "family" means joint accounts, accountability on all spending etc etc. A joint account and trusting each other with money is what family is all about. "Family" is about not hiding things. When I spend $240 on a haircut and colour my H says "you spent WHAT" and then when he spends the same on some stereo equipment I say "you spent WHAT". It's companionable, it's silly, it's what makes a marriage work.

Never mind.

Of course I wouldn't make a phone call like that. It's none of my business. I was just making a point.

The Policy of RADICAL HONESTY is all inclusive. It takes balls to own up to your spending with your hubby, especially when he sometimes disapproves. That's what Negotiating and POJA are for--helping come to a mutually satisfying, safe, and protective compromise so that both people can feel good about how the money is spent.

That's not to say or imply that Mel doesn't know this already or has not already addressed it with her hubby. I would assume she has, and only bring this up because it is the appropriate thing to know for people who are new to MB and learning MB Concepts.

This thread really went downhill.

The reason that MEDC's approach wouldn't have worked with me as the BS, is because I find it horrifically disrespectful for the FWS to decide what is or is not appropriate to my Recovery. FWSs have a track record of bad judgement (sorry!) and I would not be comfortable with mine telling me that something is not appropriate for me to know!! Excuse Me?? Why didn't you realize that it was inappropriate for you to do?

No. I will make the decisions for a while in early recovery. I'm not the one who ran the marriage into the ditch with my faulty judgement in the first place.

From Penalty Kill

This thread *has* run way downhill, and at this point I suspect the original poster is long gone.

I have to ask, why the personal attacks and alcoholic insinuations? Because of a difference of opinion? What's wrong with saying, "This was right for ME", and leaving it at that?

I don't see that MEDC is advocating dishonesty *anywhere*. Frankly, that is SO unlike MEDC, a straight-shooting poster whose 2x4s hit home to me in the early stages of recovery. I can still remember saying to my H, "Isn't this poster kind of harsh?" and his reply: "But that's how I FEEL!". Me: "Oooh".

And a small 25 watt lightbulb went on in my head.

And MEDC and 10Swords may not always agree, but I always look for their posts because I know they will have something valuable to say. One is in a recovered marriage, one not. That's just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

Wow, this has really went off the deep end. I see where penaltybox is coming from and same with 10Swords. Myself as a BS, even though I have not got to the point to talking about the A, I don't need all the little details. Myself I am looking for just to close out the information and the whatifs in my head. Details for me are just going to cause me more pain and those details is something that will never be undone. I may change on this when I get to that point in discussing the A. Of course if my suspicions are of the sexual nature, I am going to ask if my WS had any sexual relations. I would have a right to know. I don't care how they did it, but where I do. Because if it was in my bed or on my couch or what ever, I want to get rid of that stuff quickly.

So what works for one person may not work for the next. The concept of honesty is what works for all of us.

I do think that we scared away the poster, but only time will tell. :-)

Oh please, Kiwi, this is just a shoddy, low attempt to change the subject. Why not have another drink?

This thread has collapsed into complete, catty, vicious chaos and has sadly, become a waste of time.

10Swords, this is being brought up in an attempt to change the subject and has nothing to do with the subject at hand. MEEEOOOWW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> This will certainly teach me to never bring up any of my own marital issues here because someone with a resentment will only use it as a baseball bat in the future, not to help, but to punish. Very catty, 10Swords.

Everyone here knows I would not advocate dishonesty. Twisting Dr. Harley's appraoch around as Mel as done with Dr. Phils would go something like this. He advocates perpetuating another cruelty on the BS by allowing hurtful details that really serve no purpose to be discussed. The opposite of kindness is cruelty.
That is every bit as ridiculous as what Mel has said regarding this.
The fact is honesty is the cornerstone of both approaches.
These personal attacks on Jen only because she stood up against Mel... (and yes... being dishonest about money when being so preachy about honesty is hypocritical) just shows the mentality of these boards.
Perhaps discussing differing opinions are not welcome on your personal board Mel...but here they are. And your appraoch on this thread has not at all been reflective of the straight shooting, brash but caring person I have come to know on these boards.
This is all sad indeed.

10S... good morning. Just want to let you know... it is not my approach. This whole topic was brought up in an innocuous way and since then has been kept alive by those that have felt that there is but one way to do things. I have chosen to understand where others are coming from.
I do believe that a BS should be able to ask certain questions. But I can understand how soemone with pure motives and honesty would not agree that is the best way to handle things.
Basically that is what this entire argument comes down to for me. Dr. harley happens to be the biggest tree in the field...but his is not the only one that casts shade. And although more people can find comfort under this tree than some of the others... look closely and you will notice that there are others perched under some other trees enjoying the shade. So, my point is, knowledge is a good thing. It helps to understand where others are coming from and not always assign sinister motives to their ideas.

MEDC, no one twisted your words, only posted your quotes from Dr. Phil where he DOES advocate dishonesty. You offered this as "another approach." It was challenged and soundly demolished, which has you reduced to making personal attacks since you can't defend the "alternative approach" that you posted.

You cannot expect to offer "alternative approaches" and not have them challenged. Sorry, not even Dr. Harley is above reproach.

Unfortunately, you have tried to turn any challenge, or even honest discussion, of your beloved Dr. Phil into a personal attack on any who questioned his wisdom. That says more about you than it does the challenger.

This thread has degenerated into malicious personal attacks because you can't just stick to the facts, MEDC; you have to turn everything into a personal atttack to divert from the issue at hand. That is a cheap debate tactic that is utilized that those that can't defend their case. THAT is what is disappointing......and obvious.

Mel... I see a good night s sleep has done nothing for your mood. In fact it is your words that have been shown to be false and hypocritical. Your position has in fact been demolished. And Dr. Phil is not beloved to me... but I am also not a groupie for Dr. H that thinks that just because he says something that it is true... the truth stands no matter who says it... but your own words show that you do not believe it to be true. That the person speaking and not the truth is what counts most. You have become so enamoured with your bully tactics that you can't stand anyone questioning you or challenging your views. I have not in anyway challenged Dr. H here and have repeatedly said I agree with his approach. All I have said is that I understand other approaches and that does not fit into your 2 gallon hat.

I rest my case.