Actually, you included the citation to support your point and never said - UNTIL NOW - that you didn't advocate it. In fact, it seemed to only serve to support your own advice to the poster to "dodge these questions." If you didn't agree with it, wouldn't common sense dictate that you might not post it in the first place? Call me a silly ho, but when I post a quotation, it is not because I DON'T agree with it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> [or if I DO, I believe I would say so to make my point]

But alas, after all this time you admit you DON'T agree with it so there is nothing to disagree about, is there?

In that case, your dramatic lecture about "religious fanatacism" and "intolerance" is a little out of place, isn't it? [and overwrought, IMO] But it sure sounded cute, so maybe you could save it for more appropriate circumstances? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

p.s. You do understand that "tolerance" is needed for OPPOSING VIEWS? "Tolerance" does not mean everyone has to agree with you. Just an FYI on the nature of tolerance.

Well, i happen to be in the camp of those that wanted to know and feel the BS has a right to know. But Dr. Phil is NOT advocating dishonesty... what he is trying to convince people is that no good comes out of knowing those details and that they will not be discussed because they will only harm the marriage. I do not agree with this mentality... but I can see that his motives are good.

ML... it does seem to matter to you who says it. Earlier in this thread when you believed it was something Dr. H said... you saw the point in not discussing "comparatives." It just seems that if Dr. H says it... it must be true.... if someone else says it.... can't be true because it isn't the MB way. I like to read and absorb a lot of information from different sources and judge those things based on their merits and intentions.



and then this....which seems to contradict the first post

No, its because of a long history of listening to Dr. Harley and understanding how he thinks and how he comes to his conclusions. He carefully and methodically supports his every opinion. I have nothing but the greatest respect for his opinions because of his track record.

That being said, I was WRONG in agreeing with something just because I thought he said it, and immediately thought better of it. Shame on me! After I thought about it a second, I came back and asked Hiker the PAGE # so I could look up his reasoning myself.

But, the point isn't really WHO says it at all, the issue is: IS IT A GOOD PRACTICE? That is what counts.

It doesn't matter what Dr. Phil's "motivations" are or aren't [the road the he11 is paved with good intentions], what matters is what is best for the marriage. All opinions are not EQUAL, in other words, some opinions are downright stupid. And withholding facts, aka lying by ommission, is STUPID, no matter WHO says it is and no matter WHAT the "motivations." It is a BAD practice that only causes more harm than good.

And I am sure that Dr. H learns new things every day too.... some things that he thought best for a marriage 10 years ago, he may find problematic today. We evolve and therefore it is important to be open to learning new ways of doing things and not being myopic to one persons view points... no matter his track record today.

I am not sure what all this has to do with the subject at hand, but would point out that we are here to learn and discuss MARRIAGE BUILDERS principles. The sign on the door is Marriage Builders, in case you didn't notice. Folks don't come here to learn about Dr. Phil or Aunt Sally, but MARRIAGE BUILDERS. If folks wanted to discuss Dr. Phil, I imagine they would go there, don't you?

Oh, okay ML... that is a ridiculous statement. Imagine me in counseling with SH... I bring up a question that I heard this on the Dr. Phil show and wanted to hear your opinion on it.... I can just hear him saying... Well, WE are Marriage Builders and if you want to talk about Dr. Phil's point... go to his show. We ONLY discuss MB here. Ridiculous.

Hello everyone-

Rather than argue about "what's best for the marriage" in general, perhaps it's possible that "what's best" may change depending on the individuals involved.

Some people don't want details. They just want the affair to be over, so the marriage can move on.

Some people need to know the details in order to move on.

People are different and respond many ways to stress. I don't think it's possible to find the one best way to deal with an affair. Thus both Dr. Phil and Dr. Harley are very successful despite opposite views.

So- I think this question should be left to the betrayed spouse. Whatever they need to heal, the formerly wayward spouse should supply. Otherwise the marriage will not survive.

Just my opinion-
~Saturn

I agree 100%.

MEDC, what is ridiculous is coming to the MB forum expecting to learn about a principle that CONTRADICTS MB principles. If someone wants to learn about Dr. Phil, wouldn't common sense dictate they go to his website? I don't know about you, but I don't go to the Baptist Church to hear about Catholicism and vice versa, do you?

This is the prevailing opinion on this forum, ie: radical honesty that is dictated by the BS.

ML... a person comes here to learn about MB... no doubt. That does not mean that they cannot hear about other methods... even those that may differ in points with the Harley's. Knowledge can only be a benefit everyone. Understanding all sides is strength.... at least outside of Texas. Sorry, Mel... but on this point, you are fumbling the snap... just like your fellow Texan Romo.

MEDC, no one has said they "cannot hear of other methods," as you have seen on this thread, they HAVE. And that "other method" has been soundly shot down. But if folks thought those other programs were more applicable, I betcha a smart fella would just mosey on over there and learn all about it, don't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The focus here is not "ALL METHODS," but MB methods. That is the point of this forum.

Let me put it this way, MEDC, when you come on a forum whose focus is MB principles, don't be too surprised when those principles are defended from contradicting, stupid philosophies. The folks come here to learn about Marriage Builders, after all, because they know of MB's successful track record.

So, if someone wants to bring forth a contradicting principle, they should not cry like a gurly man if someone challenges their opinion. They should try and substantiate their opinion. Unfortunately, no one has been able to support the opposing position of dishonesty and that is what counts.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

you are most certainly a "unique" personality Mel.

"i also thought i needed to know everything about my H's affair

and bless his heart, he answered me

now i wish that i had only known the facts that didn't involve every sexual act and word and thought

i still close my eyes and see it in such detail because it was told to me in such detail

i can't seem to erase the pictures

maybe knowing this would help your H to better choose what he wants to know

tell him, yes, but tell it as you would want to hear it....not as it would be painted

if that makes sense "

Eav, I thought you did a great job describing it. Yes, it does make sense to me.

Hiker, I read your example and I can see your point and I agree with you, but then I am not in recovery so my opinion must not be worth much. Some folks seemed determined to turn this into a black and white issue. I'm one of those that believes like MEDC that its a good thing to hear other reasonable opinions without having someone twist your words and tell you that you are flat wrong.

Honesty vs. Dishonesty IS a black and white issue!!!

Oh and MEDC, about Dr. Phil...


If true, it would certainly explain Dr. Phil's rationale about not telling all the details, now wouldn't it? I'm not sure what it would take to check with the Texas State Board of Examiners of Psychologists to confirm this if you are interested...Here is the link to the article talking about the published book...


Mrs. W

not interested... I've heard this all before. I don't think it impacts his credibilty today. Heck, there are a lot of people on this site that have had affairs that are now strong advocates to telling everything... people grow. I take his rationale at face value. It can be very harmful to some to know the details. His view is pretty widely held and even though I do not agree with it... I can understand the thought behind it.
We can dig up dirt on anyone. Heck, there are people out there that think Dr. H is a quack and that he skews statistics for his own benefit. I prefer to think the best of people until I have a reason to doubt their motivations.

Oh please, Dr. Phil is not a "quack" because someone thinks so, but because he gives out stupid advice. The advice that deceit is the solution to infidelity is bad advice that can't be supported rationally. It is "harmful" to have an affair, it is not "harmful" to know the truth. That advice is what ruins his credibility.

A persons credibility is determined by the validity of their opinion. Just because someone THINKS Dr. Harley is a quack, doesn't mean he IS.

The thing is that no one except the BS is in any position to decide what the BS needs to know. It can undoubtedly be damaging to some BS's knowing all the gruesome details. But that is STILL for the BS and no one else to decide here.

And quite frankly, if you are not a BS and have never been in a position of trying to recover your marriage you have no idea apart from fruitless speculation of how YOU would feel if you were in that position and what YOU would need to know. The view is somewhat different looking from the outside in.

really the original question from the poster was if it was a good idea to answer the questions that the BS had. We all agree on that. Weather the BS wants details or not is going to up to that person. Either way the information recieved is going to be painful and that is something they both will have to work through. In either case, honesty is the only way to go, after all it was lies that put them there in the first place so why go back down that road.

agreed