BK... you are becoming an expert at twisting words around. He does not advocate deceit. You just don't get it. I don't agree with his position... but you are doing nothing more than twisting this around. He may be advocating not telling certain details... he is not advocating lying. What he is saying is it is his belief that certain information is harmful and not necessary to be discussed. Again, even ML when she thought Dr. H had said it saw the harm in discussing certain information.

And I would disagree with your assessment of Dr. P. You are entitled to your opinion.... even when you are wrong. And using your own words here... just because you think Dr. Phil gives stupid advice... doesn't mean he does. YOU maybe just don't get it.

And the funny thing is... I agree that a BS has a right to know. I can just see the other side of this and know first hand how damaging some of that information is. If I ever go through this again... I will choose to not know certain details.

agreed

MEDC - I never even mentioned Dr Phil - I have no opinion on him whatsoever and was making NO comment about him or his advice.

sorry, that was ML.

And what we are saying is that this is BAD ADVICE that impedes recovery. The BS is the only one qualified to decide what is and isn't "harmful" to his recovery. No one else. Honesty is the solution to infidelity, not more deceit, not more secrecy.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm...what about this thought?

The BS should be the one to make the choice on what he NEEDS to know to make the choices to continue his marriage and work on recovery.

But a good MC would likely caution that BS to think about the questions that they WANT to know the answers to vs. the ones that they NEED to know. And to inform them that they need to think about the long term plan of their recovery...that some of the 'visuals' that may result of some of their more graphic questions may be VERY difficult for them to deal with during their recovery.

A FWS might GENTLY provide that same caution...

But...the FWS SHOULD STILL answer ANY questions that the BS asks...primarily because that's a key way that the foundation for future trust between them will be built. Any hedging or lying at this point does FAR more harm than good towards recovery.

Thoughts?

I think that is the general thrust Owl and the consensus of this thread.

Exactly, Owl. Exactly.

I agree with you on that owl. the BS should really weigh what they really need to know to what they think they need to know. but as to this case from the poster we really don't know what the BS wants to ask, so we can just only assume and form our own opinions. never the less, if the BS decides to get into details the WS/FWS should answer the questions. The trust needs to be rebuilt and the lies to stop. I'm wondering if the BS is having questions of their own. I know I would, but I'm still working on that process. If it was myself asking questions, details are not of the importances as to the facts and to put my mind at rest. If that was me ofcourse.

sounds good for me Owl.

One more question. You see, some of you are recovered BSs, but does any one of you know for certain that you really got the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? How could you know this?

You couldn't.

You can only compare against what CAN be verified and historical intimacy.

You never really know.

Any liar worth their weight also knows this and could answer to that end.

You can never know 100% for sure.

I do however think that for most "moral" people the guilt would get to them.

I would not / did not believe my wife until we were well into recovery. Consistency is the key. Builds trust.

Also in my case the OM told the same story. I have enough verifiable stuff.

Wrong. It is NOT bad advice. Not telling all details does not impede recovery. I have seen MANY,MANY marriages fully and happily recovered without all details told.I have seen many marriages IMPEDED because the BS kept going round in circles with endless questions that do nothing but stall recovery. (Now THAT is what I call impeding)It works both ways. This is not just a recovery for the BS. This is a recovery of a MARRIAGE.The WS DOES have a say in the recovery and quite frankly is usually the one setting the rules on when and if recovery actually starts. The BS in most cases that I have observed on this site and many others usually is the one doing all of the work and the MOST negotiating to save the marriage.

The WS has as much right to decide the WISDOM of what details to go into the BS as the BS does to say what details they need to know. It is stupid to suggest that all details must be told and the BS gets to have the right to decide.(Sounds good though) There is no reason in the world that any BS with any self respect and self esteem just HAS to know all the details of an affair to recover. That IS NOT TRUE. IT is only an OPINION and can be very misleading when trying to help a BS recover. I can not remember ONE BS on this site that decided to end the recovery because there was some details left out. As long as the WS shows remorse and ends the affair and will acknowledge the hurt caused, is USUALLY the most important factor into how fast the relationship moves forward. Many can live quite happily with less than full details if those things are shown with action and word.

As a matter of fact, it is only ONES PERCEPTION of the truth that we are speaking of. One can PERCEIVE a person is being honest, when in fact they are lying to you. Happens all the time. So it is NOT the truth that help recovers a marriage, but YOUR PERCEPTION that you are being told the truth.

It is YOUR PERCEPTION that the only way to have a successful recovery is by having every thought that goes through your head about the affair be answered to what you perceive to be the truth. It is entirely possible that they STILL lied to you in some little detail and you feel happily recovered and not know you were "lied" to.

As long as you believe that you HAVE to know all the details to recover, then THAT will be your self fulling prophecy. It isn't a fact. One does NOT need to know all details and one does NOT need to know all details to have a perfectly happy and successful recovery. To say otherwise is irresponsible and a LIE.

Oh, I see...truthiness works.

Hear that MB...Radical Honesty has been replaced by Keep's theory of Radical Truthiness.

W

ah now I get it. Truthiness. Of course.

Bwhahahahaha

Sorry, keepmovnfrwd, but your complete and utter lack of knowledge of what it takes to recover from adultery is breathtaking. And completely contradictory to what Dr. Harley, an experienced expert advocates. Your post sounds like the bitter screed of a very fogged out WS, to be quite frank. It takes complete and total honesty to restore trust. Or at least the WILLINGNESS to be completely honest to the level that BS requires.

However, the BS determines that LEVEL as they are the ONLY one qualified to do so. It is not my "perception" that radical honesty is required for full recovery, but the educated, experienced opinion of Dr. Harley, the one who HAS helped untold # of betrayed spouses recover. How many have you helped recover? Do you have the same credentials? I thought not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyone who has been the victim of an affair and has been through recovery will tell you he is right. Honesty is the solution to adultery, not more secrecy, not more lies.


What nonsense; the rapist does not get to decide what it will take for the victim to recover. Only the victim gets to decide that. The rapist caused the damage and therefore, isn't qualified. The notion that the victimizer has a say in what his victim needs is nonsense.

Perhaps you would benefit from reading some of Dr. Harley's words about honesty, it seems to be his "perception" too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />:

1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

From:

Four Rules to Guide
Marital Recovery After an Affair
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Is dat a new Arkansas word?? **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now now Mel. You are letting the truth get in the way of a trolling