So I made it another day. My H is going to write a NC letter or so he says. He starts therapy on Friday, he got a new number, started looking for a new job. I haven't spoken to him but we've been emailing me. I'm afraid to see him. I'm afraid that the strength I have mustered will just break under the pain I'm sure I'll feel in his presence. I just keep hearing all the times he lied to me point blank. Looked me in the eyes, saw the pain, and did it anyway. He says he didn't want to talk to her but why didn't he take all the outs I gave him. All the times I asked him for a NC letter and he told me I shut that door a long time ago. I can't believe how isolated I feel. I am so confused as to what to do. He seems to be taking steps to fix things but his word now means nothing. He tells me he loves me, misses me but thats all so empty. Supposedly he loved me before while he was sneaking around telling me to trust him. When I ask him what he was thinking he says honestly I was thinking you're going to leave me if you ever find out. He says he was afraid if he stopped talking to her she'd tell me. I just don't get that impression from the OW who now seems to want to be my friend as she emails to say hi now.

Any words of wisdom?

Mel

Melly,

Why read her emails. She certainly is NOT a friend of yours. She may actually be attempting to be friends with you in order to stay close to him. You don't need to go off on her, but it might be the case and she might not even realize it.

Secondly, if he is writing the NC letter, be sure he brings it to you and lets you read it and that you mail it together. Have you communicated to him how you would like to see the letter worded? Remember that Dr Harley has pretty specific requirements for a NC letter. The WS must never admit any feelings for OP, say they will miss them, or try to say they can still be "friends." Since your H is not the one reading and posting here, you are the one that must tell him what you want to see in the letter. Don't get hung up on phrases or specific wording, only worry about meaning of what he is saying.

If, he brings the letter to you for approval and it does not meet your requirements, don't go off on him. Gently communicate to him what you want changed without making him feel like a total moron.

As for the feelings you are having about his lies; I don't know if the pain ever completely goes away or not. Maybe somebody that has been doing this a lot longer than me can answer that. In my experience, you must learn to get past those feelings and look at what he is doing RIGHT NOW, as opposed to dwelling on what he DID THEN. His actions are what will rebuild trust.

You have lost trust, comfortableness (is that a word?), and respect for him. I think all three can be rebuilt, but they return in reverse order. First you will begin to respect him, then you will start to get comfortable around him and finally, you will begin to trust him once more. Right now you feel as if you must follow him around to be sure he is being a good boy, but you must make it his job to make you feel at ease when you are apart. It must be his job to reassure you by being open, honest and totally transparent in his every day life.

Do you have copies of SAA and HN/HN? If so, let your H read them. If not, get copies or check the library for them. If you don't make them available to him, you will have to train your H in what he needs to do. The drawback in that is that if you tell him to do "X" and he smiles and does "X" you will feel that he has to be told what to do all the time. He must learn what your ENs are and how to meet them. He must learn to communicate his needs to you in a way that you understand. He must also learn enough terminology so that you two are using the same words to mean the same things.

BTW, the less threatening HN/HN may be the better first book for him. Let him make a little progress and then experience the full remorse of what he has done. If you try to get him to accept his wrong doing and all the pain and shame first, he may be unable to cope and might "break" deciding that he has just done so much damage that he can't fix it. Let him know that it's OK that he not fix it all at once.

Biggest thing for you to remember is that this all takes time. Make that TIME...In days it may be bearable. In weeks it may feel doable. In months it may seem hopeful, but it will be years before it seems like it is over.

Mark

I feel like I'm on a huge recon mission. Like I have entered high school all over again.

I guess I keep reading her emails because I need the truth and my H has been very vague and I am just not the kind of person who can deal with that. I keep thinking that if this had been dday #1 I could move on with much more ease but he didn't just keep secrets he looked me in the eye and lied point blank to my face while ackowledging how much pain he saw in those same eyes as a result of their relationship. I just want the truth and he won't give it to me even when confronted with the truth. The only time he tels me the truth is when I can confront him with what shes said ans so far she hasn't lied. Which is scarry. I know her truth is spun to hurt me and his is spun to protect himself.

Everything I've read says to hang onto what we were before all of this but I can't see those things the same way anymore. It just seems that the lies are never ending. He says he never had "romantic" feelings for her and yet he didn't deny it when she asked him if he did. I just keep thinking about what he said when asked what were you thinking. The I was thinking I was gonna lose you if you found out. He knew how hurt I'd be and did it anyway. He knew he would likely lose his family and again did it anyway.

You are so right when you say I don't respect him. My children don't anymore either. I hate him for hurting them this way. My oldest is just relieved and my second child watches out her window every night asking why daddy chose her. My son hasn't even noticed he's gone as he's so used to him not being here.

i can see a life without him and that doesn't seem bad. But I can also see one with him but that one is terrifying. I can't figure out if I'm so okay with walking away because it's safer or if it's because it's what I want. Right now I can't even bring myself to hear his voice. Let alone see him. He's been threatening to leave for so long and has without ever even batting an eyelash. Why is he crying now? Why is it now that he can't live without us? He's chosen to leave a few times since she left their store and followed through so why all of a sudden does he act as if it's the end of the world?

I still don't have the whole truth. I mean I still have no idea how often they were talking. December was when I would bet they talked the most as that's when he left us and went to her. I just know I can not go forward with the knowledge that there is more to come. I need it all before I can move forward.

Mel

Sweetheart...

I've got to tell you to quit reading her emails and BLOCK her.

She may be telling you she wants you to know everything...but what she REALLY wants is to usurp your marriage.

Know what?

By reading and re reading those emails, you are ALLOWING it.

Yes. He lied....and as for the whole truth, I'm 99% certain even HE doesn't know it...and wouldn't know it if it bit him in the butt right now.

And another teeny bug for your ear...Honey, she slept with a married man...do you honestly thing that she is above lying to you in order to lever the rift between the two of you into an all out chasm?

Further...his crying and desperation is HIS to own right now. Because of how you feel about seeing him (at this point in time), it's HIS to deal with. HE has the proving and the footwork to do if he wants his family back. He either will man up or he won't...but don't hold your breath for either.

I will tell you the only things you need to worry over right now are you and the younglings. Get yourself (and them) to a place of calm and rightness in your world.

If wh mans up, and after you've regained your footing, THEN you can decide what you want.

Right now it's too raw...too hurtful...too much.

Do for you and your littles...let him mop up the fallout from his choices.

- Kimmy

I'm trying-I really am. I just want so badly to wake up from this nightmare he's created. For the first time in a long time I feel like I can trust myself. After months of being told I was crazy I now know my instincts were right on. I know I will be okay one way or the other. I'm just soo hurt. And you're right its very fresh.

My H probably doesn't have any idea as to what the truth is. He didn't deny feelings but I don't think he believes he has them either. To the best of my knowledge they were never physical but again lies for as far as the eye can see. Nonetheless they are both saying no. Everyone keeps saying atleast he didn't sleep with her but our vows were not based on sex why should this be? Nobody ever says well you slept with'em now you gotta marry him/her. Most are saying EA just as bad if not worse than one night stand. I don't know m/b its from growing up in a very detached household. I have struggled long and hard to be able to form an emotional bond and to be betrayed is bone crushing. But atleast I know it will eventually pan out.

He started his NC letter. Hes doing pretty well, I think. I'm worried theres a little too much emotion though. I'm gonna try to get him to post it for some help so m/b that'll help.

Mel

Okay so heres the start to his NC letter. Let me know what you all think.

Dear Liz, I meant to write you sooner but i've been busy and had some stuff on my plate lately. anyway the reason for this letter is to tell you what you and i have done to a happy family, is to tell you how you and i crushed four kids and their mother. There was a time in which i reguared my self as a husband and father first then everything else, friend to others, worker, everything was secondary to them. unfortunatly somewhere along the way i lost sight of what was truely important and defending you was my number one priority, that was wrong. it was wrong for you to feed into it, and egg it on. whether you admit fault is of no consequnce to me as i know you are at fault too. this was a joint venture between us, and now the fall out is 4 kids who are depressed that their family isnt what it once was, i keep saying this because i want you to understand fully what we have done. one of my children asks her mommy all day everyday howcome daddy had to choose liz? one of my children goes to school and tells everyone that my daddy cheats, one of my children has to see his mom cry and no matter how many hugs he gives her she doesnt stop. My wife, the beatiful woman she is, she used to adore me, she loved me crazy and i was too wrapped up in my friendship with you to nuture her love, i was too wrapped up in being your superman that i neglected my family, these are things i have done, with you help. it was your responsibility to say no dave your married, i will figure it out, it was your job to say dont call me dave and i wont call you, your married you have four kids, they need you. You and I crushed a happy family. Has it started to sink in yet? you are responsible for the possiblle end of a marriage. a union with vows taken before god, and you helped break them, the reliving of your childhood almost, as your mom cheated on your dad, and now you have become your mother. The point of this letter isnt just to make you aware of what you and i did, its also to tell you that i want no farther contact with you, this is it the end of the road. i do not want email from you, phone calls, no myspace messages or anything else you can think of, in turn i also want you to refuse any contact from me, if i call; hang up. if i send an email delete it, if i myspace message you; delete it. i want to reiterate this just so there is no confusion, My wife and My four kids are my only priority i will not be there to help you no matter what happens in your life, you will not be there for me either, as far as you are concerned i no longer exist, and as far as i am concerned you no longer exist.


****thanks soooo much for all your continued support and advice-its been a lifesaver!

>I just want so badly to wake up from this nightmare he's created.

I know...believe me I know...

Those are the exact same words and the exact same feelings I had....

The trouble was, I didn't have MB. I didn't know what to do.

So here we are....one who felt the same pain, and someone who is currently going through it.

Here's my hand.

I'm saying this with all the certainty and all the sincerety that one can squeeze into these itty bitty text boxes...

Though you feel alone, you are not.

Though you feel it is a never ending waking nightmare, it is not.

Though you feel like you are flailing wildly with no direction, by coming here and reaching out, you've planted your feet on a path to heal yourself.

and this:

>But atleast I know it will eventually pan out.

is a huge understatement.

Because Melly...not only will it work out...you WILL be happy again.

- Kimmy

From your mouth to Gods ear. And hopefully sooner rather than later. i just hate this flailing feeling.

I have so many questions that are unanswered. Namely how my H truly feels about the OW. Could he be telling the truth? Is it possible that he really doesn't have anything but friend feelings? I guess I already know the answer to that but I just keep thinking m/b. I just don't understand how he could do this to us and our family. I know it'll never make sense but as an analytical person I need it to.

It will never make LOGICAL sense. To try to do so is like trying to picture what infinity looks like...or laboring day after day just to see how many decimal places you fiddle with for pi before your brain explodes or you willingly stick a pencil in your eye (don't laugh, I have a cousin that took this up as a hobby...while his quirky sense of humor makes me wonder about his brain....he DOES still have both eyes).

I was in a CE professional course once and the speaker said something that everyone needs....

Picture yourself in the ocean. The waves are annoying and you're fighting them...you learn through the struggle that sometimes in order to save you, you gotta stop struggling and you gotta float and let some of the waves wash over you.

She made these little swooshing waves over her head when she said that.

So now...if it's a futile struggle for me, I just let is wwwhhhaaassshh on over me (making the swooshing wave over my head).

But I had to learn to recognize what the futile struggle was and what was worth standing my ground for.

I dunno if you've read my link in my sig line. Talk about struggling against the ocean...

As for his feelings for her....

Something I've learned...if'n he REALLY TRULY wanted to be with her...he'd be there.

Period.

Little logic here in the midst of illogic...we as BSes don't control the waywards...we control OUR REACTIONS to them.

You and I know you can't control another human being unless you use emotional extortion (OW tactics), water torture, or a cattle prod (being Texan I prefer the latter)....and why would you want to? So (and I know you're doin' this) quit trying to think that somehow he's with YOU because he feels sorry for you or somehow he's guilted into this... If'n he wanted her...he wouldn't be figuring out NC letters.

So...

try...

to...

let...

that...

go...

That him loving her stuff. Doesn't matter if he did. Know why? Cos EVERYTHING they ever did or talked about or felt for each other is a lie based on a facsimile.

Period.

Lastly, tell him to get all that crapola out of his letter about the possiblity of him maybe slipping up. She'll see that and hope. We want scorched earth here. None of the nancy boy shineola "if I do this, do that". It's bs and I'm calling him on it. If he slips up...HE owns it...not her...

BTW: Being Texan means talking to God is a local call. Talkin' to him right now 'boutcha.

- Kimmy

Thank you so much Kimmy. Your words could not have come at a better time. I've been feeling pretty hopeless today-even called a lawyer. Taking it easy not really my strong suit. But I will try and keep trying.

Wasn't he choosing her by choosing to stay involved know it would cost him his wife and kids? I have given him every oppurtunity to leave and he never does but she also has never offered to let him stay with her. I truly believe that if he thought he could have her, really have her, he would.

I haven't had a chance to read your story but wow. Just the small summary you have seems traumatic to say the least. Everyone keeps saying that I'm strong but you take the cake.

As far as his NC letter-should he add anything or is it okay, do you think? Is there anything else he should take out? I still don't know what I'm going to do but this needs to be done.

When do I stop thinking I'd be better without him around to hurt me? Right now my instincts are screaming walk away. But there is a great possibility that that is trying to protect my heart.

Mel

They don't THINK....from what I've gleaned over the years, for some it's that urge to have EVERYTHING and everyone in their life...it's selfishness at it's finest.

And if they ever have a glimmer of thought....it's more along the lines of "Melly is strong enough to handle this...the children are resiliant" (I HATE that children statement...both VD - our OW - and the Wookie said that so many times I wanted to take them by the necks and shake them like a terrier shakes a rat).

I think your wh is gettin' now that kids aren't that resiliant...

As for taking out anything else...STRIKE that whole superman bit....it sounds like pet names...pet names = warm memories...we don't want any warmth unless it's lighting a fire under her butt to get the h-e-l-l out of your world.

Thank you God for sending your angel - Kimmy - to the wounded souls here on MB.

((( mellysue )))

Carnation

How did you get to this point? When did the did-he-love-her, how-could-he, he-can't-possibly-love-us, the-overshadowing-of-everything-good-that-once- was come in? Right now I just keep replaying the last year in my head which of course just hurts more. Knowing their A touched even the most important times i.e. our childrens birthdays, special days for us. One of the days was a day that he left the house "in search" of something to make us better. It just seems that nothing will ever be special again. I'll never see those days the same way.

I can not tell you how many times I have heard your stronger than her. She needed someone and you didn't. How many times I heard this isn't effecting the kids despite them crying and begging him to stop. He told me that if I loved him I'd just blindly support him and trust him with her. What a joke!!

Is a NC letter supposed to be short and to the point? I didn't care for the superman comment either. It was a kick to me I can only imagine how warm and fuzzy it'll make her feel. Does it say all it needs to say?

How did you start to form some trust? I know we're nowhere near there as it is WAY too soon but right now it seems that I will always be questioning where he is, where he's going, who he's talking to. Everytime he's a few minutes late. Everytime he picks up his phone. I still am awaiting his phone records for December so who knows what else there is I am going to find out. I just need the truth to come soon so that I can stop getting it a little over a long period. Thats just too hard. It's like chipping away at whatever progress has or could be made....

Mel

You are sooo right!! Thanks for the hug-God knows how desperately I need one!

Mel

WAIT

WAIT

WAIT!!!!!!

You're going too fast...you're speeding through all these issues and wrapping them up in knots together when EACH one needs it's own time and medicine in order for YOU to heal.

do it with me now...

Deep breath in......ssssnnnnnaaaarrrffff

deeep breath out......whoooooossssshhhhh

You need to remember that. It's a nifty trick to use so you don't function in overload too much.

All of the whens, hows, correlations to special things like birthdays and family times...it hurts...I'll never tell you it doesn't....the hurt isn't so bad now for me...tho there are still songs and such are still nearly unbearable...thank goodness for pre programmed radios.

I have a little story. During his adultry, the Wookie bought me Klimt's The Kiss for me and had it nicely framed. I loved that picture....I always thought the couple in it were us....him so dark and me so fair...and the tenderness of his kissing her...ohmy!

He gave it to me for mother's day. Fast forward to not long after 2nd dday. That painting hung in our bedroom...and it MOCKED me. I could hear it saying "neener, neener, neener" and to top it off, the Wook still hadn't made ANY progress in ending it with VD.

We were arguing about that....and I snatched that pic of the wall, smashed it to bits on the footboard of my bed and THREW the pieces at his feet.

He was SHOCKED. To this day he SWEARS I threw the pic at him...but he was still a foggy alien at the time, so any memories he has are imo not worth jack.

This Christmas, he bought another print of The Kiss, but it wasn't finished at the frame shop. At THIS point...right now...he is on his way to the shop to get his money back. Why? Cos I'll never be able to look at that Klimt again without it softly laughing at me.

We're going to an art fair this weekend to find something that touches us both, together.

Yes, the triggers still ache...but the triggers are being replaced with good stuff...us stuff...family stuff....

I had a convo with BobP one time....the turning point for me was letting go of the "should have beens". Our life should have been this way...or this is how we were SUPPOSED to create/have a family.

See, Melly? The "should have beens" were never mine...they were not real...none of us are guaranteed our "should have beens". I was mourning something that was never REAL in the first place.

I HAD to mourn it, for certain... but once I realized that it was pyrite instead of gold... it was easier to let go of that part.

What happened, happened... no matter what we do, we can't change it. Mourn it for what it was... Everyone needs to so they can let it go.

As for the stronger than her comment got me.

I got that a lot. Truth be told I AM stronger than her....otherwise I'd have crumbled by now.

But just because you are stronger than her doesn't mean you NEED him less. He needs to realize this. Don't hold your breath on it happening anytime soon (should you decide to stay). The de-fogging process takes time.

I, me, I did not form trust. I did not give it willy nilly. If something pinged me wrong and I didn't trust him about it, I had to be able to feel safe telling him. It is HIS job to make you feel safe. HIS job to mop it up...Trust is not a gift wrapped in a Tiffany's box...it's more precious than anything Tiffanys sells. And the only way for him to gain your trust is by proving himself and his devotion to your family.

As for that mackin-frackin letter...toss it. It's garbage imo. Too wordy and long. I'll post this response then I'm going on a NC letter hunt. I read some good 'uns over the years....and his pitiful attempt doesn't hold water enough for a minnow to swim in.

(don't tell him that....that'd prolly hurt his feelers...but we need to git'er done, eh)

- Kimmy

Heres his new one....


> Liz, you and i have crushed a happy family, we
> seperated 4 kids from their loving home, leaving
> them in a broken mess. i will never speak to you
> again and if you ever try to contact me again i will
> file a restraining order against you. leave me and
> my family alone.


So what do you think?

I just wet my pants!

That one is so good my toes just curled up to the backs of my knees!

Cold, concise and to the point.

Rock on!

So I just found out that the A not so much what I thought. Apparently when he left in December and supposedly stayed with a friend that friens was her. He stayed with her on our son's bday. They slept in the same bed where supposedly nothing happened. On his way out the door she kissed him and he SAYS he pulled away and left. Then went back there the next night. But didn't stay. He says she begged for him to stay and begged for him to leave us. His response-we have kids its complicated. He left the house on Nov 14 (a day that has huge significance to me) in search of a way to fix us. Apparently she was it. That night he came home with a card asking for a fresh start. For what? To continue with his ******. He swears they didn't sleep together but I'm hard pressed to believe that. He started therapy today and the dr said he could fix this that I was right on. He told him that OW is bi-polar. I told him that too but ya know. He told him that she is a younger version of his mother. His lips touched hers and then touched mine. I'm thoroughly disgusted. I want to crawl out of my skin scrub until my skin is raw. I feel like I've been violated.

Kimmy-how did you move on? These triggers are things like our DS bday, our anniversary, christmas. I want to be rid of everything from this last 1.5 yrs. This has tarnished not what I thought we could be but what we were.

How did you decide to pursue your marriage? Right now I have no desire to continue with this. Right now I'm just glad its over. Everything is over. I can move on be happy. He wants a chance to show he can fix it. He wants me to slow down. But if I walk away I KNOW i'll be happy. Staying means I could be even more miserable. Staying is a gamble. Leaving is a surefire win. Kinda like givin up on love cuz loves given up on me. To steal the words from a couple great songs. Right now I'd put a barbed wire fence around my heart just to keep him out.

Please help!!!

Mel

Okay so I am the most impatient person ever and I am having the hardest time just waiting. He needs time to prove he can make this right but its not in my nature to just wait. I know this is all new but I have a very hard time letting people in so this is soooooo hard. Just the thought of letting him back in is paralyzing. I'm generally the okay-you-hurt-me-I'm-done-with-you-type. So this is foreign territory to me.

The theory is that if he didn't want to be here he simply wouldn't be. But there was a time when he was with her instead of here. So isn't stand to logic that there is a huge possibility that with her is where he wants to be.

He says hes crystal clear for the first time in a year and a half but he said that last time. His word means nothing now. He applied to couple places but again a repeat performance. Theres likely nothing to come of it. We haven't sent the NC letter yet. How do we set it up to have the letter delivered by a process server?

If there are any ideas as to how to expose the homewrecker please let me know. She needs to be accountable. People need to know what she is.

My H is reading his needs her needs now. And I guess hes taking steps to make up for what hes done. I guess only time will tell. God I hope this isn't a mistake.

Do you ever feel like you have the whole truth? Or does it always feel like theres more?

How do I not go crazy wondering where he is, who he's talking to, what hes doing? He can give me his cell records but theres nothing stopping him from calling from work or emailing from work. It feels like I'm taking on another job-PI.

These triggers are killer!! It is all very new but I feel like my heart is in a vice. I have a photographic memory so moments, words, actions all replay crystal clear in my mind.

I know I need to not worry about what I have to do because it is his to own. And I will do my best to just breath....and be patient.

Melly

I'm so sorry you're hurting this way.

Just know there are people here who can listen, support, lead and even carry you through this time.

I am somewhat of a newbie here, but I can tell there are good people here with very good advise. I'm hoping one of them joins in here with some better words than mine.

Remember, you have 4 very good reasons to keep trying. They need you now.

Hang in there!!