My gut is torn. The test says-LIAR!!! but I'm not sure that my gut says the same thing. I feel so stupid. If I believe him I'm the fool again. He just seems so sincere but he also seemed sincere when I foung the phone records and all the times before.

I just can't believe this is happening.

Its so strange because the good times feel so unreal. The betrayal feels so real. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the betrayal be what feels surreal? I don't know. Maybe its just par for the course. I keep going over all the good times we've had in the last few months trying to feel good about them but they feel imagined. I guess in a sense they were.

How can I even be considering that he's telling the truth? What an idiot.

You're right about those times existing. They were in me. Problem is they were only in me. Are they still there under all this mess?

Mel

Yes. They are there.

And yes...he's lying to you.

I believe that he is lying to you to save his butt.

Do not consider that he is telling the truth, because he isn't. He's attempting to take the easy way out...because it worked before...

The trouble is, it was only a placebo...and gave him permission to continue behaving badly. Only if he owns this and cleans it up is he worthy of your time and your children's time.

Are you going to tell him to own it?

It's the only way out for him.

The one and only way.

Be steadfast. Be firm. But let him own this. Take none of it on yourself. It's not yours to be accountable for. He will try to hedge and make excuses.

Be true to yourself and your family. Hand it back to him.

- Kimmy

So then do I let him stay here? Or make him go? Its the only reason I got the truth before. If he had been at home he never would have admitted anything.

Do I just go about my business with him here?

What do I do when he wants to be affectionate? Or when he wants to do things with us?

How do I pass this back to him? Right now its landed back in my court. For example, whether or not he gets to stay or whether or not I believe him. It is now my problem, how do I change that?

Mel

Is he still denying?

If so, lay the facts out and tell him to own up.

What are you doing for you?

Oh yeah, he's still denying. Laid it all out for him and he swears he didn't do it. Even has his coworkers saying polygraphs don't lie but for some reason I believe you didn't do it. This is crazy. I have my soap operas but this tkes the cake.

And as the saga continues my H got an email from OW last night. He called me right away and asked what he should do with it. I told him that if he did not want to talk to her to just delete it without opening it. Their district manager has told them both that if they get caught emailing or talking they'd be fired. My H called his store manager who then called the district manager and we'll see the outcome today.

The kicker-she emailed me and asked which one of us whack jobs impersonated her!! This coming from a crazy,because she doesn't deserve woman privileges, who was sneaking around with a married man with 4 kids for a year and a half. Where does this B**** get off!?!? Well she claims my H must have done it or atleast that's what she inferred. He did it to get my attention? He's in deep enough already. He's a liar and a cheat but this is a little far fetched.

He came home and asked if I had set her up. Wish I had. Wish I could take credit for taking her job if that's what happens. Anyway I messaged her and told her we weren't going to be talking anymore. Now she can stop messaging me.

As far as me-I hired a cleaning/organizing lady to get my house back the way it was before all of this happened. Before my life turned into pure chaos. My house reflects it. And I can't stand it anymore. But she's awesome and I'm hoping this helps to start fresh.

So what's your take? She's been exposed which feels nice. i wish I had gone to human resources when the wise advised me to months ago but never too late, right?

Mel

GOOD!

He called you and told you right off! YEA!



She knows she did it and because she's being called to the carpet on it is trying to make you all out to be the instigators. Common.

My take is he is still lying about what was said and did with her...but then, anything he did and said at that time was a lie....and we all know it. I think he's doing it to cover his boohooba for fear of losing you. But a lie is a lie is a lie. When he finally pulls his head out of above mentioned orifice, you'll probably get the truth (not like you didn't know it all along).

Yea on the cleaning lady...send her to Texas when you're done with her. I need all the help I can get.

- Kimmy

She's fabulous!!!

I have an appointment on Thursday for those highlights too!! Now if I could only fulfill my Dallas Cowboy cheerleader dream!:)

Hopefully he will keep this up. I talked to a close friend of his yesterday and he suggested I go get me a mean left hook to keep him in check as he is soooooo disappointed in my H for doing all this. Mind you they have only known eachother for the last 5 months. But he has been so supportive of me in this sitch. My H is notorious for picking out the crazies obviously because they won't call him out on his bs. But this one-he has called him out multiple times since exposure. Progress m/b?? Baby steps. But said friend is soooooo on team Mel which is good. And while talking yesterday he gave me the tried and true words of wisdom-go day by day and let him prove he's worth your time. I guess its just nice to know there is someone else looking out for us on his end. Up until the new friend everyone just kept telling my H that he was innocent and I was the one who wasn't being a good wife-HA!

But I still wonder-do I plan things for us? Or wait on him to?

And then do I accept? Or do I kind of back off that for now?

Do I nurture our marriage or just me right now?

Mel

Plan things for you and the kids...and ask him along....

If you want to work on your M, then nurture your relationship with your dh.

Really, what I wanted you to do was to get your footing so you could decide what you want to do.

But now...maybe set some time limits in your head and jot down what you want for your marriage and your life.

You do sound stronger today.

Clean house helps...I know that!

Your husband needs to read up on radical honesty...perhaps you need a looksee as well...To be honest with yourself is a huge step for those of us that have gotten stuck in the giver/mommy role. Honesty with oneself means being honest to those we love about our own needs.

His Needs Her Needs is a MUST read for you both. Your library should have a copy...ours did...even the rinky dink llibrary at the coast did...

- Kimmy

Mel:

I have been reading your thread and we have many similarities in our situation.

Here is my story briefly. WH had a 2 year affair with a co-worker which ended Jan/06. I found out about it after finding some notes he made for himself on April 1/06. After a big blowup and several confrontations we decided to work on M. Immediately went to counselling together (it was too soon) and WH appeared to be in recovery. Meanwhile he had already turned to OW#2 (also a co-worker) for comfort and friendship. Their EA started sometime early in 2006 (I don't know exact details yet) and then turned into a PA shortly after. All the time here we are going to MC and spending tons of time together, taking vacations, etc.

WH was paying lip service to R but never committed 100%. I felt his reluctance on several occasions but put it down to continuing contact at the workplace. OW#1 pursued my WH for many months later and sent tons of emails and phone calls. He was "managing" her anger and resentment because she threatened to tell coworkers and our 2 DDs. Also, of course, unbeknownst to me, he was keeping his second affair secret from EVERYONE!

What a juggling act. I found out about OW#2 on December 17 and IMMEDIATELY kicked him out of the house. Amazingly, he was very reluctant to go and begged me to stay to work on our M. I felt very much like you; been there, done that.
His second betrayal was so much worse than the first so I can totally relate to your feelings. I look back and think I gave our M everything I had and it still wasn't enough for him. Then I remind myself of what MB website repeats over and over again. "You will never recover your M if there is any contact whatsoever between the WH and OW" In my case, WH was completely involved in a EA/PA during our false recovery. We never even had a chance to make things better. He was never open to it and had, deep inside, already written us/me off. He just wasn't honest about it.

The feeling that I had that day was that the world stopped turning and I was frozen to the spot while inside my heart shattered to a million pieces. It is very difficult to know that my WH looked me in the eye so many times and lied flat out and pretended everything was fine. Why? Because it is the easiest thing for WHs to do. It is the path of least resistance and with OW, there is never any judgement or anger. He has told me many times, he cannot handle my anger, resentment, pain and most of all my many questions.

I was struck by the many emotions you are feeling and that they are very similar to mine. I know what you are going through. You are not alone and maybe we can help eachother. I too feel like screaming and saying what about me I deserve to know the TRUTH!!! But everytime you push questions amd talk of M or R, you push WH further away. I have seen this with my WH on several occasions.

Currently WH is living in a furnished apartment. He begged me to come home for the first two weeks. Promised he would do anything and everything to make things right. I did not believe him for one minute, as much as I wanted to. He had proved himself such a liar and deceitful to the nth degree. I stuck to my gut feeling (my heart told me to let him come home) and I am glad I did.

He needs time to see and feel what he has lost. Coming home because he felt complete and total panic would ultimately be bad for us. He needs to make a choice now. As scarey as that is for me, I must let him do this. I have given up control of him and what he is thinking and how he is feeling.

In the meantime, I try to take care of me and keep busy. My DDs are older and very independent, so it will be different for you. Every little bit that you let go of, you will feel yourself getting stronger and stronger.

Others have advised you to be patient and quiet and stop asking questions that may not have answers right now. Try, try, try to do this. I feel better already, knowing that I cannot control him.

Also, I think that you must accept that your WH is still lying to you and you must assume that contact is still happening. Until he can prove otherwise. This will protect you from more hurt when he lets you down again. Learn from many others who have been where you are. Try to think with your head and not your heart. It may be unreliable right now.

Anyway, I hope you know that I am rooting for you and send my hugs to you. You are not alone and maybe we can help eachother through this.

Freya

may I suggest

you begin a journal
discuss with yourself
the deal-breakers you cannot live with

really get to know your own certainties

begin each sentence with

I am certain .....

example:

"I am certain I am strong enough to leave a marriage that remains a triangle."

"I am certain I deserve a man who is faithful."

and so on

begin here

Pep

I do need to figure out what I want for me. I know some but am so far from realisitic. I feel like I'm floundering. The mommy/giver role is just such a norm for me. I've always been that. I've always been the what do you need person. I've always been last on my list. That was okay with me when it was the kids but if I've learned nothing else in this mess it's that somewhere along the line I started doing it with my H too. The scarry part is-I didn't even see it until I was slapped in the face with his betrayal. The betrayal that I knew was going on. Atleast in the back of my mind. I just didn't trust myself enough to acknowledge it. I once again without even realizing it looked to my H for my reality.

As I sit here listening to yet another mom debate on tv about working vs. staying home I am forced to realize I frequently resent not getting the acknowledgement I deserve. As a SAHM I don't get a lot of me time. I love being home but I do want more. I do want more for me. I want to feel less guilt about doing for me. I want to go back to school but I'm afraid and I don't know what I want to study. I have suchh a broad array of things I love and none coincide with the other.

I don't know if I feel stronger today. But I don't feel as hopeless about MY future. I can do this and I will.

As for my M I hope things will improve but with denials and eveidence to the contrary I fear we'll never move forward. There will always be Q's and doubts. I'm sure you hear the desire to believe him but I'm trying to stay steadfast and not be made a fool of again. How do I get the truth? Do I just ignore it and move forward anyway?

I have ignored my needs for so long thinking that if I didn't do everything I wasn't good enough. Thinking I needed to be superwoman. I've always dealt with things by keeping busy-I don't have to be honest with myself if I just keep moving. I guess this is God saying SLOW DOWN!!! YOU need help too!!! Even now I feel like part of this is because I wasn't good enough-didn't do enough. I feel like I failed. I worked so hard, put my heart and soul into itt and it wasn't enough.

Mel

this becomes

I am certain I can do this

see how it works?

Pep

This is a good idea. My friend recently gave me a journal. I will start today. There are some very easy ones I can start with.

Did I make a mistake allowing him to come home so soon? He was only gone a week. It was like Freya said-he was very remorseful, very "committed" to fixing this.

It was my heart that I followed not my gut-even now my gut says he's lying about it being a PA and a polygraph backs me up. But how do I get him to own up? OW has inferred there was more than he claims but made no definate accusations. The only one who knows is him. Without her he will deny, deny, deny.

Contact has ceased. I only know this because she continued to email me. I do however believe he will go back. Just a matter of time. Last time while telling me he was done with her he didn't even TRY to end it.

ME,ME,ME,ME,ME is what I need to do but that is the hardest part.

Mel

"me me me"
but not in a selfish way

in a self-knowing way

Pep

That is what I need to learn or better yet get. Being knowledgeable in me is not selfish. Which is how I always feel when I do for me. And the way my H has made me to feel. If I do for me he always makes it quid pro quo, ya know? If I need him home or need his help I'm asking too much, needing too much, expecting too much. My needs are selfish and unneccessary. And I've believed it. I've conditioned myself to ignore what I need just to get through the day.

My H always says I want you to do whatever you want but is unwilling to help me accomplish that. By that I mean-he won't help with the house or the kids. His relationship with them is so strained they do not want to be alone with him. And that makes it difficult too. Its like having to choose the kids or me. Either I can get what I need or the kids have to be uncomfortable. My H is pledging and taking baby steps to fix things so m/b it will get easier. My oldest still thinks he hasn't learned and shouldn't be here. Time will tell, I guess. I just hate that everyone will get hurt again if he fails.

How do I impress upon him how much his actions will impact everyone-especially the kids? If he betrays me-I am sure I will be okay but in the longrun its the kids that will have to deal with the lifelong reprecaustions of his actions.

Mel

keep journaling



by impressing yourself that you can and will create protective boundaries for the children as well as for yourself

Pep

Do I just plan without him?

Or do I work on rebuilding our M?

I am thinking at this point that its best to rebuild me and if he wants to tag along fine. If not i just keep going?

What are the best ways for him to rebuild what he has destroyed? He has gotten a new phone, is looking for a new job, he made it so he can't talk to her from work or he'll be terminated, he has exposed himself to his coworkers as a liar and cheater. What else is missing? I can't see how these things alone will rebuild trust. And hes reading hn/hn. And is doing therapy.

Its a process I know. I just have to be patient and stop trying to make sense of this and trying to fix this for him. I need to make him do that. M/B, oh wise ones, you have some pointers on how to let go of my feeling of responsibility to fix this for him, me, and the kids. How do I rid myself of the shame I feel for his actions?

Mel

have you read any of the Harley books?

Pep

My H is in the process of reading HN/HN. I will be reading it after. I read Not Just Friends and Getting the Love you Want.

mel

well, that's just GREAT