i'm sincerly thrilled for all those couples that are recovering. Especially for Mr and Mrs MM!!

but i can't help wondering... WHY NOT ME???

i could continue to rant but i think the above pretty much covers it.

ok, so i didn't ask the type of question that can really be ansewered very easily, but i really was hoping for some replies (and obviously i am impatient). my heart is hurting.

i guess i just sometimes need to hear that our lack of progress is not because i am inheriently un-lovable.

hows that for stating exactly what i want.

here i'll even make it easy... just cut and paste:

"you are NOT inheriently un-lovable"

You are not inherently unloveable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry things aren't going as well for you as you might have hoped.

But at least you stayed and tried to make it work. Much more than can be said for my ratfink ex, who refused to try - or even stay for 24 hours after d/day.

{{{FinallyLrningT2H}}}

Alph.

FL,

Has it crossed your mind that your A's are NOT the real issue here? Has it crossed your mind that your H has done some very good things and strong things, but that basically you are not first in his life?

Has it crossed your mind that you two do need some serious counseling to deal with the issues that have always existed between you two? Would you still be happier if you were a teacher? Would your children be happier if you were happy?

Would your H be happier if you were happy? Would you be happier without your H? Would he be happier without you?

Was there ever a time in your marriage when you were really happy? If not why not?

FL, it seems to me you need to answer some very hard questions, then take those answers and consider them carefully, and then draw up a plan for your life.

My guess is that you are unhappy because you are drifting, in life, in your marriage, in uncertainty.

I am not sure that anything I have said will help but I hope some I have said does.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks Alph!!!

Yes, JL. Everyone of those thoughts have crossed my mind.

and i'm stuck on "BUT WHY???" why am i not higher on his list.

he lives in his own little world and i'm not in it.

yes, i would love to be a teacher. and I am still working towards making that happen by leaning a new skill that I can do from home to supplement the change in salary when i make the move (or when the move is made for me, more cuts are coming again and this time it may be even deeper cuts).

but the truth of it is, i can make due staying where i am and be fine with it. i sometimes whine a bit about the stress but seriously i could live with it all fine if only my marriage was more fullfilling. truth is, i already am dealing with my job. i'm not miserable. true, i come home VERY tired some days. but at the same time, i like the benefits of the job too. #1 the pay <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but also the pats on the back. i'm good at my job and i'm told that often.

would my kids be happier if i was happier? i could be wrong but i don't think my kids see me as an unhappy person. yes, they know i would like to be a teacher but i tell them i'll get there, no worries. yes, they see me tired, but i bounce back.

but if you ask, would my kids be happier if the marriage was stronger... i would have to say absolutely. i know they feel the tension and i'm sure they see the distance.

i'm not teaching them what a good marriage looks like and I hate that!!!

we have shown them what commitment means. they saw us go to the brink of divorce and then turn away from it. that is a very good thing.

would DH be happier if I were happier.... certainly, i know he wants me to be happy. i'm confident of that.

there is basic happy and then there is marriage happy.

i am basically happy. i have 2 wonderful kids, a well paying job (with it's ups and downs), a great house, a great vacation house, fun at the theatre, even a sweet new puppy.

what i don't have is a partner to share it with. this marriage is now and for the majority of the time, always has been such a lonley place to be.

i don't understand why.

and as frustrated as i am that we are not closer, i belive he is just as frustrated that i need us to be closer.

regarding if either of us would be happier without the other... well the point is, it's not just about us when it comes to that question. so the answer to that quesion is irrelavant.

bottomline, i'm here for life.

it took me too long to really own the vow i made on our wedding day!! but i own it now. 100% i'm not looking at any question that talks about that vow not being kept till death.

i can only change what is in my power to change.

it seems to me the only answer is to change myself to not want a closer marriage but i just cannot do that!!

ok, that really is not the only answer, the other answer is to do the things that would result in a closer marriage but for as much as i have read and learned here, i just cannot seem to integrate it into this marriage!!!!!

we were so close to counsoling and then he pulled the plug and I let him.

because of everything i have done i just cannot put that kind of pressure on him.

yes i am drifting, life is just floating by and as i get older more and more i realize, there will not always be a tommorow. i have to enjoy today!

i know you want to help. and i appreciate it so much. but all i've done is told you that what you say is exactly the same stuff that goes round and round in my head already.

what i don't have, as you clearly state, is a plan.

finally learning

i ask myself this everythime that i read a story of reconciliation here

i believe that i have done a good plan A and B and worked on me

so WHY NOT ME TOO?

{{{{eav}}}}

just keep taking good care of yourself

FL,

You situation disturbs me. I am not a marriage at any costs type of person. I do believe that people should give it their all, but face reality as well. That part of things is your call.

However, it is clear your H will not budge unless forced to. Your impending divorce forced him to budge. Even your affairs although very hurtful to him, forced him to budge.

The reality as I see it from here is that he has it just as he wants it. Little involvment with you. You providing the financial backing so he can pursue his career, and no need to provide you anything.

Now read this last part very very carefully. He does NOT provide you anything does he? He does not provide for you financially. He does not provide for you emotionally. He apparently is not that active in providing for you physically. Notice I am HAMMERING on this?

Here is why.

YOu said
My comment to your comment is the He$$ you can't. You two are married, you are not his slave. You made a mess of things once but he decided to remain with you. Whether he forgives you or not, you are allowing him to use your failings to keep you in line, when it seems all he really wants is your support financially and with the kids.

It is time you quite whinning, and stood up for what you want and need in this marriage. He has choices to make as do you but they need to be made in the light of BOTH of your happiness. NOT in light of his supposed leverage because of your guilt.

It is time you quit letting him punish you to assuage (sp) your own guilt. It is harming your family, it is harming you, and actually it is harming him.

Oh! and why you are not higher on his list???? He does not need you to be higher on his list, he gets what he wants now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Have you heard about the squeaky wheel? Well it is time to start squeakin girl.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

I hope they are of some help.

God Bless,

JL

Self-forgiveness is where the healing would start, along with the growing.

Once you learn to forgive yourself you can learn to respect yourself, and from there you will learn how destructive anything less is...to all concerned, as JL says.

ok JL, i hear you I really do. and i agree with you. i am such a whimp when it comes to this relationship!!!

"the squeaky wheel gets the oil" yes i know that phrase very very well. I am the squeakiest of wheels at work, let me tell you. and boy are you right, it works amazingly well.

i can do it at work since my squeaking is pretty much 95% of the time right on the money. my boss totally backs me up and things happen because of my squeaking. in my review this past year, my boss made it a point to say how much it is appreciated that at times when others want to back down, take an easier route, i speak up and speak up loudly convincing people to not take the easy route but do it right. to not say something is "good enough" when good enough is not acceptable.

but at work, i can so effectively state the facts and prove without a doubt what i am saying is right.

now that i think about it, another reason it works is because while doing the above, i generally also include workable solutions. i find at work, people want to accept something as good enough because they do not know how to make it better. if i give them a workable approach as how to make something better along with my arguements of why i am saying "good enough is not acceptable", then people line up and help fix the problem.

there are times i eventually have to concide that maybe i am being too demanding. but not that often!!! lol

i appreciate your opinion about marriage. the thing is, i really do believe in till death, am 100% committed and so my opinion stays firm. the vow said marriage till death. i didn't look at it that way strongly enough before. i let myself consider divorce as an option and it just led me to a mess. i like the "till death do us part" part of the vow now. i hate that i considered divorce before, that was wrong to have done.

now if there is physical abuse, i would not say the same thing. or if a spouse where cheating and would not stop, that would be a deal breaker. but that is it.

so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

ok, so my impeding divorce forced him to budge. yes, that is extremely true. i'm not going to go into the whys, that is what specifically didn't DH want to lose. i'm sure there are many of them. i could speculate but that would be disrespectful. he says it is not just because of the kids he says it is because of me, by that i assume he means he wants to be with me. so i will accept that at face value. i'm not going to sit here and judge him as having other stronger reasons. that would not help anything.

the budging he did then was forward.

you said my A's forced him to budge. i'm not so sure about that one, what it really did was allow him to "unbudge".

ok, so here is the million $$ question, are you still reading? i've gone on to long...

how do i repectfully squeak?????

if i open up with any negative comment (like, i'm not happy) he either shuts down or gets mad. and no progress is going to be made then.

JL, please don't tell me that there is nothing that i can do. please don't tell me you don't think he loves me. i heard that from a MC once and that caused so much damage!!!

i really do believe he loves me. so with that, anything should be possible. right??

ok, back to thinking of solutions only... lets say i come up with a list of what ENs i want him to try (ok, not try), ENs i want him to fill. and i come up with concret actions. what leverage do i have if he refuses?? i already decided i'm not going to use a divorce threat.

so what do i squeak with??

at work i squeak up with reasons why the customer should not accept this "funcionality" (what i would call a bug!) as acceptable. you start talking on customer terms and you get people (like management) to listen. at the same a time you propose a solution making it easier for people to say agree. you have taken away the biggest headache, coming up with the appoach to a viable solution.

seems to me the reason that has the best chance of working is the kids happiness. but now it is my opinion vrs his. whos to say if the kids are not already happy.

ok, i know i'm shooting everything down. and that is not allowed during brainstorming mtgs.

while brainstorming one is to right down and accept everything, you never know where a "crazy" idea may actually lead you....

ok,

step 1: time for me to complete the ENs questionaire as well as the LB one. i never did. i've been too whimpy.

step 2: set a specific time that the two of us will talk!

hi weaver.

self forgiveness: how does one really determine if they have done this enough or not?

i think i have.


self respect: i can't argue, i don't have that, if i did, i would be acting differently. i would stop hurting myself. how do i hurt myself? #1 - bad eating; #2 - no exercising. #3 - internal thoughts of how i am inferior, no worse, an object. (not always, just at times)

#1 and 2 i have been working at. and i have been making progress.

#3 is becoming more and more obvious as something i really need to work on. i guess i'm making progress in the sense that i see it when i start to go that way internally. i recoginize it when it starts happening. i just don't know exactly how to battle it full force yet.

It was a long a varied process for me, even now I still try to be aware of how I could have done better, and then I practice forgiving myself...again.

I believe that guilt will always seek punishment in some form or another, so if you are letting another treat you less than they should, it would be because of your own guilt. More self-evaluation on where you may be with holding forgiveness.

I can not separate self-forgiveness from self-respect in many ways...it's all a process and tied in together.

I read a lot FL on the subject, and my spiritual studies led me to a book which changed my life eventually. The basis of the entire book is forgiveness, first of ourselves and then of others.

I can't say if that would be the answer for you, I only wanted to bring it to your attention as it seemed to be what JL was saying in part.

You do gain self-respect by doing what needs to be done for the betterment of yourself as well as the others in your family.

And recognizing those nasty thoughts you have about yourself (less than worthy, an object) and then replacing them with something positive about yourself is a very good start.

It's an ongoing process, probably for almost everyone.

FL,

I'm on the run but wanted to add a little to the mix.

You ask "why not me???" . . . from an outsider looking in it is pretty obvious (I can tell JL sees it too). If fact, from the way you are preceeding I would be very surprized if you ever move out of the why not me phase.

You keep trying the same thing and keep expecting different results . . . that is one definition of insanity.

Your husband doesn't change the way he treats you because he doesn't have a reason to do so . . . his needs are being met by you . . . and he can continue to keep you in your place because of your affairs and live aloof whilst you bring in the cash and do childcare.

If you are not willing to risk anything to change this situation, and if you are not willing to leave the situation, I guess you can pretty much expect more of the same.

You have value FL. You need to really try to grasp that. You have the same right as anyone else to be in a loving marriage. What are you willing to risk to get there? (I ask myself the same question and am annoyed by the silence of my response.)

weaver, so you are saying if i feel any guilt (does that include remorse, because i would say i feel remorse more than guilt) then i have not forgiven myself?

Hi CN, i was just thinking of you last night. i had noticed you had not posted anything for a while.

so what are you proposing?? stop meeting his needs???

seems like the only need he has is for me to not divorce him!!!

what am i willing to risk? obviously we both have the same answer. i'm not willing to risk the end of the family.

yes i have value, but i don't have the right to break up a family. i made a vow and God then made us one and blessed us with this family.

i think i need some air. time to take dog for a run (her running, in a field , not me!! i'll just walk in the same general vacinity lol).

by the way, i am meeting his needs. and not just because i'm not divorcing him.

i just thought i would say that!

Finally:

Congrats on the ticker, keep at it.

But you are the FWW. Why not you?

You have gone outside of this M on a self described Few Times and now you want your H to be all lovey-dovey.

What do you really want?

Recovery? Describe for me what your recovery would look like.

How different are you now from what you were like three years ago? I do not want to sound harsh with that, I will gladly go to another link if it is all there. And then I can find out more about your overall sitch. And then I will spout off further. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Or keep my trap shut... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

But, as a FWH, I know why I went out of my M and have worked with my BS to address my missing needs, And I certainly started addressing alot more of her needs....cuz I was way off base... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

FL,

First let me respond to something you said to Weaver.

You said
Let me ask you something. If you don't find yourself attractive, then why should or would he? I don't just mean physically attractive, I mean emotionally attractive.

You are still punishing yourself and it is killing your relationship.

I have some issues with your H, but I also know he hung in there under some pretty tough circumstances.

Ok, please think about my question. I personally think if you want to face your guilt, it is time that the best payback you could give your H is a W how likes herself, enjoys her life, and is confident in herself. I think he fears you depending on him. He does not sound like a man that takes responsibility well. If he knew you were strong in your own view of things, then it would help him open up to you. I suspect he is withdrawing from your neediness.

Let me address a few other things you asked.

you said and asked
I am not recommending divorce. I am saying you cannot be afraid of him divorcing you. You surely don't want that out come but you cannot not fear it. Otherwise you are paralyzed and it allows him to have leverage over you that he should not.


Ok, what does he want from you. One thing we know he does not want a "dependent" W who expects him to make her happy.

I'm thinking he wants a wife that with a smile on her face says "get your $$$ over hear and ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />. In another words a woman that wants him because she does, not because she NEEDS him to support her. Does this make any sense?? It is hard to describe exactly the dynamic, but hopefully this will start you thinking.


Yup, it was, now do you see where I am going with this?


I think I would disagree. For two years he tried while in your A, what was he noticing that was missing? It was you and he responded to the challenge.


You squeak by telling what you want of him, in specific terms. Not in "feeling" terms. You yourself said you are successful in "squeaking" at work because you not only are specific about what is needing adjusting, but offer ways to adjust it. Now "touchy feely" things, direct, clear, concise and accurate.

Notice since you don't even know what your EN"s it is unlikely that he does, nor does he understand your requests.


That is the point. You don't start up with ANY comments about him. You simply say I need??? Please do it for me...NOW. With your best smile and charm. Start out with little things..."honey I need (something from the kitchen) would you get it for me? Develop your voice, and develop the ability to show appreciation.


I have no idea if he loves you or not. It really doesn't matter. Clearly I think there is hope but you have to stop thinking in binary and start to see many ways to obtain what you want. You are stuck on guilt, begging, and apologies. The man wants a woman and one that will explain what she needs. I suspect he is not a man that likes a lot of responsibility or pressure.


I am not a person that feels that love conquers all. I thik that love allows solutions to a relationship that are very rewarding IF YOU DARE to use your power on him. You have failed to do that for a long time.


You never ask a question where the easy answer is no. You always phrase it where the easy answer is yes. A simplistic example might be the following.

You are in the mood for a little SF <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. You ask "honey do you want to bed early tonight and fool around a bit?" Easy answer is NO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Instead you ask "honey, I have been thinking about you all day. Come with me to be early and let me show you what I have been thinking about." You are not asking him directly therefore he is not required to reply. You gently take his hand and lead him off . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is too simplistic but think about it abit. If you want a hug, ask for one. "Honey, give me a hug." When he does or if he does, you thank him profusely and then let him go on his way unless of course he decides NOT TO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


You squeak with your smile, your plan, your voice, your touch, your smile, and your relentlessness.


BINGO!!!!! Think about what you have just said.


Remember the old saying "If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." It is true. Your children will be happier IF you are happy and you are happy with your H, and he is happy with you. The reward is in all of your lives. You only go through life once, wouldn't it be better if you both were happy?


Yup!!!


Now there are two crazy ideas. But, I would recommend that you don't talk so much right now. First understand your needs and develop a plan for addressing them first.

Such as I need respect.

Plan: Ok Hubby when I come in, you fall to your knees and kiss my feet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Reward: If you do, I'll... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


Yes, think outside the box, but first learn where the box is. You don't know do you?

I hope something I have said is of help.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

JL, the thing is, i do find my self attractive, just not around DH. so your question is still valid. why would/should he? i have actually already had those same thoughts.

but i do like myself, enjoy my life and am confident in myself in every area of my life except this marriage!!

and it's so frustrating.

truth is, i don't fear divorce. i am 100% sure i would be fine alone. in fact sometimes i think i would be better off alone. i'm not looking at him to make me happy. i'm wanting him to not bring me down.

it's too late to respond much more. besides i want to chew on a lot of what you said anyway.

you are certainly right about the fact that i am not daring to try to use my power over him.

i don't want to be rejected.

i'm confident at work that people will take me seriously. i've seen it happen time and time again over the years.

but DH and I, well we have had so many troubles during our 20 yrs. and i've felt rejected and abandoned for so many of those years, it's hard to stick my neck out.

but seeing as the alternative is worse, what have i got to lose.

DH is out of town (that is why i've been working so late, from home after the kids are in bed). he comes home tommorow night.

Plan: "Of course I'll come pick you up at the airport but I'm gonna need a big hug and major smooch in return"

JL, you've been helping me for so long. i can't imagine why you still think it is worth your effort!! i don't believe this is the first time i've come here looking for a kick, looking for strength. and then getting all fired up, ready to conquer the world, just to wimp out and not really accomplish anything.

ok, i'm being too hard on myself, i've made lots of baby steps.

anyway, what i'm meaning to say is just Thanks.

hey LG, i didn't mean to pass over your post.

i can't really think of a good link to point you to.

i went to IC for a while after I confessed. I did a lot of work addressing my issues. yes, there were missing needs, but more than that, i had some serious personal issues to work out. child abuse that occured by the hands of my brother. i worked with my IC to understand how that impacted me, and i even ended up cofronting my brother which i feared would be disastours but turned out very well.

i have done a lot of work on myself. i am not the same person. but as a couple, we have not worked together to recover the marriage. he is not wanting any MC, nor did he want to read any books. so i've been trying to figure out just how to get us moving forward.

feel free to spout off all you want. i obviously need the help!

FL,

When I was in IC after my last breakup, trying to figure out why I kept failing at R's, picking the wrong guy, etc., the coach who was a "brief solutions focused" coach had me write down what my ideal relationship would like. The exorcise was to write down what my perfect day in this R would look like, in as much detail as possible.

The idea being that how can we get this to happen if we don't even know what it would look like if it did. And also because there is power in visualization and power in written goals.

If you can describe this perfect day in your relationship of you dreams, you will start to act how it will take to bring it about. Just like you said when you said you faked it until you made it. Only you didn't really, because you stopped before you made it. You stopped short that's all.

You can become this person by figuring out how she acts and then acting the part, becomming her.

The human mind cannot tell the difference between what is imagined and what really happened. Athletes use this all the time in training...they train in their mind.

I did it when I learned how to water ski. I skiied on one ski the first time I ever went out and I was able to because I practiced it in my mind for a week before I went. I was trying to impress somebody but it worked.

This still works for me and I still use it.

There is power in written goals,
there is power in visualization
there is power in writing down what you want something to be like

This is how we become the people we want to become.

Also I absolutely loved what JL said about taking the responsibility off of another by not asking a yes or no question. By just taking the lead. What a gift to give to someone, to take the lead and take all responsibility off of them to say yes.

SF is a fun one, and maybe the easiest way to start. The challenge will be how to put it to other activities and areas. I would be interested in seeing some of those ideas. We can all use help there.