It was unreal. The guy is an ex NFL Football player, weight lifter. made two of me. No way was I going to physically intimidate him. Yet he brings along the wife. Probably more for my protection than anything. Anyway there was no intention on my part other than just letting him know that it was over if my wife was going to stay with me. At that point I wasn't even sure of that.


True but unfortunately this sight wasn't around then. For that matter neither was the internet. Sorry for that! For my part I just had my instincts to work with. Survival, seemed to be my most prevelant reaction to all of this. Just figuring out how to move on and supress the pain.

I am grateful for your response. You insight is incredible and appreciated by all on this sight.

I would say go ahead as soon as you feel better about the timing go ahead and get it out in the open and deal with it. Hanging on to this like I did is "not what it's cracked up to be" as the saying goes. Yes just get out so you can move on and get over it.


Good for you! You found someone with experience to talk to.


Thanks. I think I'll look for it.


We are talking about this now and have been for a few weeks now. I should have talked about it sooner but then she never realized until reading HNHN how EN's men have are so totally different from women. It came as real eye opener to her that I could still be in so much distress over this even now.

Thankyou for your response.

Hey! Mash. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the nudge. I guess I needed that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If it's the one thing I have figured out it is that things will not get better with time if they remain hidden. I stopped talking about this with my W because it was just pushing her further away. She really felt that I was punishing her with it. I now know from reading that is just more fog speak. Not really wanting to come clean and own their own choices.

Had I continued at the time we may have ended up separating. So in order to settle things down and move on to a more compatible relationship somthing had to give. So I quit the thing that was keeping us at odds. Talking about her A. Hows that for fair. She has an A totally blows off our M for a year or more and I'm being unfair about trying to get answers so we can repair the M.

Sorry I'm start to DJ as I talk about it.

Just want to say to those who have posted to me thanks. You all have such great insight always give great advice.

Just to let you know. My W and I have been discussing things for several weeks and I have come to the realization that there is not much more to be said about her A. I know all the details she can remember and really cna't tell me any more about it.

What has happened through all this is that she now realizes how deeply her A hurt me. I don't think she ever really understood that at all. I think at the time she was still fogged up enough to still think that I didn't really care enough to be concerned that she was in an A.

So I guess this has been a good step that we both needed to take.

I still don't know why I have moments when I think about the A that I get emotional inside. Like this morning driving to work just had a passing feeling of sadness like when the A was going on. That is my problem to deal with.

thanks for the update JKG. Its great that you are talking, but don't stop searching for what it is you need to process thru this enough so that the pain might subside some.

if you are having those moments that there is some need there. don't ignore it!

I really can relate to this. I feel I am very much at the same fork in the road. I've come to the conclusion that I'm not going to get what's going to help me to heal from my FWW. It isn't going to happen. If I persist in asking for it from her, all I will get is a separation and a D.

So your left with the choice to stuff it down and march onward or end the M and hope the next R or whatever eases the pain.

The irony of this is that the WS is offering the BS a life that consists of exactly what many will have said drove them to have an A. Feeling that they have sacrificed and no intimacy.

rprynne,

what exactly do you want from your wife? you said "if you persist in asking for it from her..."

what is "IT"???

IT = what you need to heal.

can you elaborate?

exactly what is going to help you heal?

i ask you for two reasons:

1. maybe by stating it clearly here you will be able to clearly tell your FWW too and then you might find that she is very willing.

2. i want to give "it" to my DH. but i have no clue as to what "it" is.

rp,

I want to say you need to do what I didn't and be patient. I'm sure if you continue to show your WS that you are there for her and meet her EN's she will open up to you in time. IMO But you must be patient.

What bothers me in your statement is that you sound as if your taker has come out and is taking control. In allowing this to happen you may be losing your connection with your FWW. Remember that until you get through this your Giver must work overtime. As unfair as that is. That is exactly what my statement was, My taker talking. If you work on the M, meet her EN's and get your taker back in control you can win in the end.

That is exactly what I wasn't.
And remember I didn't know MB,LB,Taker,Giver,WW,BS,OM,DJ,POJH etc., from shinola.

Lets just say that I over did it just a bit when I backed off talking about the A for the sake of moving on with the future and our M. I think at the time it was the right move because it got our M back on track. We have had a very careing loving M. We had intimacy just never finished talking it all out.

The thing I did not realize at the time was that my W was still in a kind of fog when she felt that I was punishing her with talk of the A. Now I know that was still fog speak and a way for her not to have to own up to her horrible choices. She was still blaming me for her A by saying that she didn't believe that I really cared whether she was in an A or not. She never admitted that the A was all about her and only her.

When I say I over did it I now know that had I been more patient and waited for better time to talk that things probably could have been talked out after a few more months or a year. Who knows.

But not Me. I'm not the patient kind, just had to push. When push comes to shove I always want to take charge and fix it now. Then when it was pushing her away my response well then we just won't bring it up anymore. Both totally wrong instincts.

So here we are nearly 20 years later doing what needed to be done then only with the right timing. Now that's really "over doing" it.

That is what's so great about this sight. You can talk to people anonymously who have the experience to really help. They are not condemning or taking sides and will give great sound advice. This is exactly the kind of place that I needed 19 years ago but alas it was not here. So I had fly by the seat of my pants.

Actually turned out rather well considering.

Think I just had an Epiphany. Well at least an intelligent thought for a change.

W and I were talking and told her she was allowed by me to get her emotions out and work through them back then. I on the other hand never was allowed to work through mine because when it came my turn she clammed up and no longer wanted to talk about the A. Just a realization I had when someone posted something about it being OK for the BS to voice their feelings to the WS just not to DJ and LB. Well Duh!!!!

Good to hear that. What is your wife thinking about all of this?

FL,

If you ever can figure out what 'it' is let me know too!!!!!!!!

I think we all would like to know.

Thank you so much for sharing your story. You may think what you have done is stupid, I see it as heroic! I don't think I would say it is what not to do either.
I have been married for 15 years, and found out 3 years ago my husband had an affair. We have talked, cried, fought and done it all over again. The dilema we are faced with is I refuse to trust again and move forward. I am scared of being "punched in the gut" again. But you were willing to risk it all and make 20+ more happy years of marriage. Yes, you still feel pain (and that is probably the very discouraging part of your story), but you weren't afraid to trust again and that gives me hope.
I hope that sharing your stories here will help you heal.

Believer,

I have had her read everything I've posted and the responses. We started by reading HNHN and that was an awakening for both of us but I think her moreso.

She really never understood the hurt the A had caused me. Now she can't believe how selfish she feels that was of her. Any way we are really talking now but I think I pretty much got the whole story no real revelations yet. I just never got through the emotion of it all. You know VENT. Really CRY. Or go Kill something. (Figuratively speaking of course).

All that was denied me, by me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Anyway we are working on it. that's good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

loveagain,

I think probably best thing, as in advice, I can give anyone out there is despite the pain of it all is if the 2 of you are willing to work together as a support system for each other anything can be accomplished. It all means nothing if cannot over come issues of trust. You cannot make the trust happen. He has to earn your trust back through actions, the part about a transparant M, POJA and PORH, and it will take time. You must be vigilant and observing to see that he is doing his part in that regard. Again if you are both doing your part is this support system you will again start to see the trust coming back.

Don't give up and stay in there and get your FWH to work with you. It takes 2 for this stuff to work.

A couple things really.

First, is that my FWW's story just doesn't hang. I don't mean the general logistics, I'm sure she's been truthful about that. I also don't need intimate details. What I mean is the color commentary.
My FWW lays it out as "I was unhappy, a guy asked me out to dinner, I said yes." "He asked me out to dinner a second time, I said yes, after dinner I went back to his room and slept with him" "We did this a couple more times and I fell in love with him" "Then I tried to end it, but instead left town and moved in with him". "OM was really no different than you and we did not really talk much about intimate things or my M." "Then you found out, I agreed to MC and a NC letter and moving home." "I was faking it in the MC, I followed up each of the three NC letter by contacting OM, and I wasn't ready to move home" "I finally decided to end contact when OM told me I need to get my life together" Because what I did was wrong, I'm moving home next week and I want us to try and start over" "I should be home next week and I hope to be able to stay for a while"

Okay, set aside the fact that most of this was not revealed, but rather I discovered it and confronted her, what I want to know is the emotional side of these actions. That's what doesn't hang for me. My FWW has not given me any insight on the emotional side of all this. I know this may bring up some unpleasant things for my FWW, things that in hindsight she thinks was foolish. I also understand that she thinks telling me these things may hurt my feelings. But understanding what happened is important for me to heal. Its important because your self esteem takes enough of a blow already, its even worse when the A is presented as an emotionless act.

Second, is empathy. My FWW needs to try to get inside my shoes and understand how my life has changed because of this. A simple example I can give is the word fine. For 13 years when my FWW said she was fine with something, I accepted it. Now she has basically told me that all (or many, or some) of those times when she said she was fine with something, she wasn't. Well, fine is not an aceptable response to me right now (maybe never again, I don't know). When I tell her that, she sighs or rolls her eyes and tries to explain to me that this time, fine means fine. If she got in my shoes and thought about it she wouldn't roll her eyes and she wouldn't say it. She'd know why it bothers me. And its not about giving her a list of triggers or things that bother me. Its about her making that effort to go to my place of pain, because she wants to make the effort to ease my pain. I did that with her.

Finally, is similar to JKG's epiphany above. IMO, when you go into plan A, you are forced to become very choiceful and very tactical. I listed this a long time ago, but what I mean is a couple days after d-day if contact is continuing, (which in my case it was), the first thing you ask for is stop lying. Then you ask WS to stop contact. Then you ask to work on the M. All the while you keep a stiff upper lip, keep a smile on your face and try to meet WS EN's. You get so busy trying to meet EN's, making the FWS feel safe, that you don't voice your feelings. This has been very hard for me because several times during this, my FWW has said we can never recover because of things I said. Even now I get nervous that my FWW will read the above and say, based on the things you said, I don't think we can recover.

Have I told her all this? Absolutely.


JKG - Thanks for the advice. Its basically what I'm planning to do. But what I wrote is kind of the mindset I have to have. Every time I push for any of this, my FWW seems to move away. So am I going to subordinate this need for the greater good? Yes. Do I think it will go away? No. Do I think its going to pop up again and again until its resolved? Yes.

But the ball is in my FWW's court so to speak on this one. Maybe in the future she will get to a place where she can address that. Maybe she won't. What I know right now is that other things in our M are more important to me right now than addressing that.

JKG

the point is, if YOU can't figure out what YOU need, how can your W??? i'm sorry to say, i certainly can't tell you. No spouse can mindread. You have to own figuring out what you need.

which leads me to the other point, you DO know:


and you yourself admit...
It was YOUR choice to stop talking to your wife because you didn't want to see her pain. No doubt, she could of helped you. She could of worked harder at not letting her pain take precedence.

i admit, i've seen that happen in my situation too and once i recoginized it (i think pepperband was the one that helped me open my eyes to that), i'm re-training myself to ACT differently. I can't change my emotional response. I am going to be sadden when he shows me his pain. but i can change my actions and keep the communication going.

rprynne, i'll be back to comment on your post shortly.

rprynne,

when i read the color commentary that you posted (and i'm assuming the quotes mean these are her words), i would be thinking...

this person didn't come home because she realized she's made a horrible mistake, that she love me and wants to live her life with me.

and it seems to me, that would be a normal conclusion to come to. is that the conclusion you have inside you??

i don't know the time line of your story. specifically how long has it been since she has moved back home. i see d-day is quite a while ago. but given the 2.5 false recoveries, i can't tell how long it has been since a true recovery has started.

so you want to know the "emotional side of these actions"....

generally when someone is not told something that they are curious about, the person will make up possible scenerios of there own.

do YOU have any possible scenerios of what the "emotional side of these actions" are all about??

that commentary turns my stomach. i think, my gosh, how mean!!!

and then i reflect on my actions. and my stomach turns even more.

i too was going to MC while the A was on-going.

DH did not know about it though. remember, he knew nothing till it was all complete done, i had found this place and then i confessed.

at this point it sounds so crazy to sit hear and type, but when we went to MC i really did want to work on the marriage. and yet, i continued the A <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> pretty inconsistent behavior.

the other thing that comes to my mind is, like me, i really didn't first "fall in love" with someone and then sleep with him. quite the opposite. which is why it pains me to read your wife's story.

IMHO, there is something internally messed up within a person that will jump into bed with pretty much a stranger. how did she meet this guy? internet by any chance??

i personally don't for a minute believe that your wife ever "fell in love" with anyone.

she was sick. and maybe she still is.

IMO, that's the emotional side of this.

has she gone to IC at all?



no act is really emotionless... but i don't think ever act is based on an emotion you have for another person.

i don't know if you know my story. it's nasty...

but i'll tell you the more recent part. from july 2001 to basically i guess nov of 2003, i was doing some extremely crazy stuff. and very destructive stuff. especially to my soul. there was a driving emotion all right... but it was not one of love towards another person. it was about escaping a pain that stemmed from within.

unfortunately i don't think my husband understands that at all. even recently he has stated that his conclusion is still one of me going off and having fun. i wish he could understand.

IC was manditory for me. IC was the only way i was going to get to the true root of the first part "i was unhappy".

it is certainly understandable that you need to understand in order to heal.

your wife needs to understand it too. which is why i asked, has she gone to IC at all??

on empathy... i agree and you have given a great example. i can feel your pain just reading that paragraph. and if she could do the same, the word "fine" would never come out of her mouth again.

on not letting you voice your feelings - i am curious as to an example in that area. what sort of things have you said.

whatever it is, i'm sure it was due to an emotion you were currently feeling and feelings change. i really have to work hard on not letting a current feeling (and thoughts that arise due to that feeling) freak me out into believing things like "recovery is impossible"!!

depending on how long it has been so far, i'm not so sure patience is the best path.

you said you are going to subordinate this for the greater good because other things in our M are more important.

what "greater good"/"other things in our M" exactly are you referring to?

i'll finish with one question...

are you happy rprynne?? because you deserve to be happy. don't you think?

ok, and one other... do you think your W is happy?

my advice, encourage her to go to IC. my DH made it manditory, but that was ok with me, i had hit such a low bottom (which is when i found MB). i wanted IC.

i hope something i have written here helps.

I think "It" is just the need to talk every thing out. Express your hurt in whatever way gets that out and released. Rage, Cry, Vent, Physical release like on a punching bag not on WS.

Maybe to simplistic I don't know

All of this is what I needed to do a long time ago. Now it's mostly talking and expressing the hurt. Sometimes still feeling the emotions come and go. But the good part is they go at least for a while.

FLTH - Thanks for the input

JKG - If this is to much of a TJ let me know.


I would say she realizes she made a horrible mistake, but my guess is that originally she felt like the mistake she made is more that she should have gotten a D from me before having a A. i.e. cheating on me was wrong, but the conclusion (or rationalization) that our M was not going to work out was correct. She may have softened a little on that, but not a bunch. She still very much feels the ILYBNILYWY.


According to the many 2x4's I got when I posted the question of whether I'm in recovery, I'm not. My FWW has not lived at home since April of 2005. She comes home about every other weekend for a few days. She lived in OM's house for about three months and has been in a hotel since. She has a job there. (I feel compelled to point out that I know continued contact may be an issue, but it is really unlikely). She calls me every morning, I talk to her 3 to four times during the workday she calls me after work, then calls when she has dinner and we usually talk for about an 1 hour every night until we go to bed. She is supposed to be moving home this weekend.


Not really, its not about scenarios. Its about understanding and putting things in order. Its about saying what you mean and meaning what you say, so to speak. Virtually every WS is or become an accomplished actor. What you saw on the outside, was not what was on the inside. How they appeared to think about you, was not what they really thought about you. In my case, I thought my wife was an emotional rock. She was solid, thoughtful, ordered, logical, etc. If I'm right about that, then the A was more calculated, cruel. If I'm wrong about that, then their is a side to my FWW that I did not know. Maybe it is somewhere in between.

My point is that while were married, her life affects mine and vice versa. Because of this, when spouses are not radically honest with each other, they are robbing the other of their freedom to choose.


Well it sounds worse when you shorten to a few sentances. It took much longer for her to say this.


Its hedging, following the path of least resistence, and letting emotions lead. Its all pretty normal, the important thing is that you "flipped the switch".


She met him through work. OM is in his late fifties, recently divorced and traveled a lot for his job. As my FWW became less happy at home, she started working more and started going out with her single friends a lot more. This made things even worse as we fought more over her not being home, she wanted to be home less and less. Somewhere along the way, she got tired of not being able to play along in the flirting that her single friends were doing. So gradually she told her friends her M was in trouble, then she told them we were separated. I'm pretty sure she actually even told them we were divorced, but haven't been able to prove this. This made things even worse because know she could not let me go with her virtually anywhere, for fear that her friends would uncover her deceit.

Anyway, I'm sure FWW would disagree, but OM basically went from town to town hitting on a bunch of people. That's how they met.

Your other point, about jumping into bed, this is really a key point. I don't think I would call it a sickness. My FWW is a conflict avoider. Second, and this may throw some for a loop, but she has an overdeveloped sense of being the giver. I think she went to bed with him, in part that she didn't want to dissappoint him, and part because she feared he would quit seeing her if she didn't.


I think this is similar with my FWW.


Nope.


Lots more of those. I fall out of my chair when on my anniversary she says "You didn't have to get me anything"


Two major things. The first was prior to D-day. My FWW and I had been trying to have kids for several years. We had lost one about 2 years earlier. She was supposed to go to a doctor to get checked out. When she got home she told me she did not want to have kids anymore. I basically blew up a bit and said if she doesn't want to have kids, then I doubt our M would last, because I really want to. What got me so upset, was that even though we were supposed to be "trying", she was never home and SF happened about once every 3 months. I was upset because I felt like she had not wanted to all along and lied to me about it. Little did I know that during all the time we were trying, she was involved with OM. Next day I got the ILBNILWY speech.

The real gut shot on this was when she told me that one of the reasons she broke it off with OM was because she was worried she would want to have kids and it wouldn't be fair to him at his age.

The second was after she broke NC for the fourth time. I said "this OM must be really starting to think you are a wh***. He snaps his fingers and you come running". My FWW is deathly afraid of being thought of as a wh***. I don't think of her that way, yet I know she thinks that's what I think.


In short, I believe if we could just consistently meet the 15 hrs a week together. We would sort all this out. For other folks this can't be stressed enough. Our problems started as soon as we spent less time together and won't get worked out until we spend more time together. My FWW once said to me "I know what your thinking". And its the first time I really got mad at her when I said "You have no idea what I'm thinking". Right now, my FWW does not know me well enough to know if she wants to stay married. Frankly, the same is true for me. I just want us to be together long enough so we can sort it out. When she is here, we have a great time and after a few days, she'll relax a little even open up a little. But then she leaves and we start to grow apart again. I can here it in her voice, each passing day she is gone.


Am I happy? Heck no. Yes, I deserve to be. I don't think my FWW is happy, either. I hope we can get there.

Thanks for the advice.