We spoke and I told her going for the Egeypt trip was a mistake and that she should spend more time with her parents and mine, and me of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />She said her mum had told her its ok if she wants to go... geez, talk about getting bad advise!

She has agreed not to go. But she still says that she wants a separation and that she has felt the need to be independant even before the A and that she doesn't want to change. She says that I talked about controlling my temper, and she has seen teh change and that I really try, but she says she doesn't want to try to change. She wants to enjoy life, do what single people do, pick up a suitcase and travel etc.

I didn't want to engage her and get into another argument, so I just said that she needed to get over her 'withdrawal' first before deciding on the marriage. So we left it at that.

We had a quiet dinner together, still a bit of tension. Then after dinner we took a walk (I needed to walk to the corner store to get fish food). To my surprise, she held my hands and even showed some hint of affection again. Man talk about W=WS morphing from one minute to the next.

We're going to catch a show on the TV in a bit, and not talk. Plan A, Plan A, Plan A!

Well, we had a pleasant evening. No arguments at all, which is good.

One thing I don't like is that she's been telling her version of the story to her friends, probably heavily edited with lots of ommissions. She doesn't deny it.

I know that I shouldn't be bothered about what they think of me (from what she's told them), but it also has an impact on their actions and advise for her when they only have 1/2 the picture. Should I just call up these friends and tell them the "true" story, or would that just be counterproductive?

I just looked at her phone messages, and her friend had texted her earlier in the evening asking if she was free, or was "spending time with hubby tonight?" The WS replied "Hehe, yes.. no choice, better stick around tonight to make him happy" Kinda dampens the slight positive vibes I got from the pleasant evening. Oh well.. I suppose it could have been worse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here is some advise that I will give that may be counterintuitive to what you have learned to MB principles. It really seems to me that you have killed her A. Yes, she still may make contact every now and then, but OW is not a viable option now because of her work and her family. I seriously doubt that they will hook up again. So, here is my idea. Back off. Stop with the spying (except you can look at the cell phone records), stop with the overthinking everything, stop with the preaching, and just focus on being friendly with her again. Start courting her again. My WW knows that OM is not a viable option now. Does she still want to call him and contact him? Maybe? But I don't feel that she is going to sneak around, get a calling card, and call from a payphone anymore. A relationship like that couldn't last anyway. If she calls him from her cell phone I will see it. That's all I am monitoring now. So, I am showing her a good faith gesture and just backing off for a while. Continue to meet her ENs, and try to get her to engage you in conversation, activities, anything. It is kind of like doing a 180, only going from being very firm to being very kind and compassionate. She might respond to this.

Hi Jim,

Sometimes I think I have kiled the A too. But if they have even occassional contact, does that not mean that she will never get through the withdrawal? That it will be back to square one after every contact with OW?

The thought that, yes, I think I killed the A, and that she would be crazy to resume it (even she says that) has crossed my mind. But now she says they could be "just friends" and that she is trying to have NC. Does that not point to an ongoing addiction? And conversation was the start of EA in the first place.

As for you saying "A relationship like that couldn't last anyway" when referring to your WS, well, I don't have the comfort of 1,000 miles separating OW and WS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

While I totally agree that I should stop the LB with the talk of M and R, and at this point also the questioning every day if she called the OW or not, I'm not entirely comfortable with them both still talking. I see it as this: If they talk, then no withdrawal. No withdrawal, then no closure, healing, remorse and no 'waking up'from the fog. If none of these happen, then she may still think our marriage was so bad that we should separate or divorce. End of the day, I'm still screwed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks!

Well, you may not have 1000 mi separating them, but I seriously doubt that your WW would be a lesbian for the rest of her life after how her family reacted.

I understand about contact getting in the way of withdrawal. If she is in contact with OW, that will set back withdrawal. However, you always hounding her about contact can be seen as a selfish demand. It is a fine line that you must walk. I do believe that the contact now is not the "good stuff" that would get her high but rather a bunch of stems and seeds (forgive the pot reference). My WW has broken contact 3 times and each time she seems upset after talking to OM. I think everytime she talks to him, he is cold to her about breaking it off with him, so she sees him for what he truly is. Yes it sets back withdrawal, but contact has been further and further apart, and love busting her everytime she made contact or just constantly hovering over her may have hurt more than watching for contact helped.

I might do this: Tell her you want this M to work out, and that everytime she contacts OW it hurts you so bad, but that to try and save the M you are going to try and trust that she doesn't contact OW and give her a little space. When the A occurred she was seeing OW every day. I think the A is over. This is just my suggestion. I'm trying it out now myself. All I am going to check now is the cell phone bill when I pay it.

Continue being kind, doing things for her, engaging her in conversation, and meeting whatever needs that she will allow you to. Avoid LB and R/M talk. Just start courting her again.

Thanks Jim. Its like balancing two things I really need to have: Wanting to know if she's been contacting the OW, and wanting not to LB and enjoy having my W instead of WS. I'm starting to opt for the latter.

Today was a good day, we had breakfast, then just lazed around the whole day. W is back and I didn't bring back the WS by asking her about M or R, so things are pretty much cool. She's gone to the gym, and will meet her friend (the one who just broke up recently with her bf) for some shopping. She's asked me along for dinner later on, which is good -she usually asks me to eat on my own <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Plan A, Plan A, Plan A, Plan A....

Also, I've told one of her friends whom she will be seeing pretty much when she goes back to her parent's place, more like a big brother to her. He was quite shocked initially, but said he would "talk some sense into her" when she got back. I told him it would be pointless to do that, and may cause more harm than good.

I told him that I'm exposing the A to him because I want him to hear it all from me (and i didn't leave out anything) before he talked to her and heard her version, which would be watered down or one that puts the blame at my feet. I told him my objective was to save my marriage, and that at this point, all I could ask for was that she 'complete' her 'withdrawal' properly in order to make an unbiased decision on the marriage.

What should I tell him NOT to do when he talks to her in order not to make the situation worse? Thanks!

You need to let him do what he feels he can do to help. He isn't in your shoes and will not have the same POV all the time.

Let him say what he needs to say. He may find out stuff which can help you.

You just be secure in your stance. If he is a smart man, he will see he is talking to the wall and spitting in the wind. But untl that time you need t/b patient.

Keep him as a close allie.

L.

Dev,
Just read your entire post. MB some good insight and has sound advice. I am too early in my own experience to offer any wise advice of my own, but I have been reading voraciously and can regurgitate some:
1)Need to stop LBing, not speaking at all is better than LBing. WW is goading you to the LB moments so that she can justify in her own alien controlled mind that this is all your fault. When you get mad you are allowing her to score points. Disengage yourself from her at the first hint that you are becoming upset. Go far a walk or go to the gym etc, maybe to the library. Take a drive, but you have to eliminate the LBs and during this time only talk about positive stuff, negative gets you into LBs and you will be more fun to be around if you are Mr. Positive.

2)Create some distance between the two of you emotionally. As you rush toward her emotionally, she will pull back. You will not be able to drag her back into the M, you have to lure her back. Don't talk R stuff unless she brings it up.

3)Start planning activities that you enjoy doing, just for you Lifting weights, running, reading at the library seeing a movie, going to the zoo, looking for a new house or apartment (just in case, you will feel better, more in control if you have plans and contingency plans), volunterer to coach kids sports or maybe an animal shelter, take a class at university, do some projects around the house like clean out the refrigerator or pantry or de-mildewize the tile grout in the bathroom... You will feel better yourself and you will then be better able to focus on yourself. Also this will create some mystery and you will have interesting things to chat about while avoiding relationship talk.

Above all, become confident and sure in yourself, not dependent on her for happiness. Chart your own course and allow her to tag along if she wishes. In the end you can only do that, you cannot MAKE her do anything, so don't waste your time and energy trying. FOCUS on YOU.

P.S. - This is really advice for myself, I think I am going to use a daily planner to make sure I hit this stuff every day until it is a habit.

Hi Orchid... I've thought about it and I think its good advise. I shall let him talk to her the way he thinks is best, but I've advised him not to let on that I've spoken to him already to her for the time being until they have some time to sit down and really talk it through. He is someone she looks up to.. right after I found out about the A on D-Day, one of the first things WS said was "X is going to be so disappointed in me". So hopefully he has some influence in this.

ShellShocked07: Thanks for all the good advise.. I've been told much the same things by all the pros here, but I'm getting annoyed with myself cause sometimes I KNOW what I should be doing, but I let my Taker out and it causes havoc. But I think I've started making progress already, so this is a good thing. I am going to the gym again, and not sitting around 'waiting' for her, and I think that has really restored a sense of normalcy to my life. Don't talk about mildew cause I just found it on some of my clothes in the cupboard <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Update:
This is the end of the third day that has gone by without me LBing or responding to her trying to get me to LB. We have been going on like we were before the A, she allows me to hold her, and she even responds to quick pecks on the lips. We were kinda in a playful mood just lazing around when I playfully asked her if she loved me, and she said yes. Then I asked her, if that's the case, then why would you wanna divorce someone you love? And she just gave a half-confused, half-embarassed "I don't know, I don't know". I just smiled and changed the subject.

I feel like things are progressing. But I'm wary of letting my guard down, cause I know that ****** WS can rear her head at any time. Sometimes I think its progress, other times it feels like the calm before a storm. I hope its not the latter.

Glad to hear you're doing better at not LBing, Dev. I cannot BEGIN to stress how important that is.

It's a roller coaster ride, up one day, down the next, but if you watch your LB's and work at meeting her needs more the ride will eventually get less bumpy.

Try to continue to have fun w/ your W. Do more things together...go out together...have fun together.

~ Marsh

I would stop talking about your relationship and spend time doing fun things together. Why don't YOU go shopping with her, YOU go to the gym, etc.

Yes, Dev, that was kinda sneaky of you to bring up the D in a "playful" moment. Those moments of playfulness and fun will do far more for your M than your constantly asking questions about your M/R. Those questions w/draw deposits from her love bank.

~ Marsh

Roger, I will try to eliminate completely any telk of the M or the R... sigh, never knew keeping my mouth shut would be such a difficult part in this process!!!

As for going with her to the gym, right now she regards going to the gym as her personal 'space and time'. Before the A, she used to ask me off and on to accompany her, but I've always refused, citing tiredness, or laziness. Now, when I mentioned trying out at her gym, she gets a look of horror on her face..lol. So its another boundary (hers) which I will not cross.

I'm trying to spend as much time with her as she will allow, without pushing or making her feel suffocated. If she has a gym appointment with a friend, or alone, then she goes. Now, whether or not she meets the OW at the gym, I don't know (OW joined the same gym earlier last year after being introduced by WS and they went together a lot).

However, lately I don't think she is meeting OW in the gym, but is going with other friends cause I see the SMS about meeting at the gym, or meet her for dinner afterwards. Anyway, I'm not supposed to ask her about it now :P

Since I work during the day, and she has a lot of spare time now that she's been asked not to go into the office, but to meet another colleague to 'hand-over' customers, she has a lot of time on her hands. She has booked spa sessions and goes to the gym during the day. It is also highly possible that she is meeting the OW during office hours, since she has a lot of spare time and OW works out of the office most of the time. But I think I'm really coming to accept the fact that if she still wants to see the OW, regardless if its just to keep the friendship (most likely), or to continue the A (quite unlikely), there's nothing much I can do about it anyway. And that's the hardest part for me at this point -to continue to love her and to swallow all my pain and questions for someone who may still be getting her 'fix' from somebody else.

Do the two of you spend the required 15 hours a week doing fun things together?

At this point I would have to say 'no'. We watch her favourite shows on the TV together, but we don't do much else in common. We used to go inline skating together, but she's stopped for a long time now. At this point, I don't want to insist we spend more time together, or to make her feel like I'm trying too hard and make her feel suffocated (which she has commented on before).

Update:
Our meeting with the MC has been moved up to tomorrow! I'm not prepared for it at all.. Can some ppl give me some pointers on how to effectively use the time?

1. Tell the story with all the details, from start to finish? Will take most of the time...

2. WS will want to bring up the fact that we had problems before, like she always does, and that also resulted in the A

3. What should be we talking to the MC about, or just let the counsellor lead us through the thing?

Thanks!

First of all, most 1st meetings with MC are just answering standard MC questions and background. One thing that I would advise is the following:

1) Let MC know that your goal is to save your M and recover. Let her know that you know that you can build a new M that is happier than before.

2) You were 50% to blame for the state of the M pre-A.

3) You have boundaries, and NC with OW is one of them.

Make sure your MC is pro-M. Nothing is worse than a bad MC. They can really make things worse. Let us know what your MC says, so we can be the judge.

Thanks Jim, will cross my fingers and hope the MC is good. Its Church-affliated, so will be pro-marriage and they are professional councellors. Will be sure to tell her that I am for saving the marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Dev!

I just read this suggestion given to another poster who doesn't live in the US....

"Get Skype installed on your computer and you can call Dr. Harley very cheaply (possibly free if it is PC-to-PC)." ~ piojitos

~ Marsh

That is correct. I have talked to both Germany and Holland on Skype, PC to PC, and there was no charge.