Thanks guys. Will keep that in mind, but will give the MC we're going to a chance.

Had the first session today, and she has read Harley's stuff and knows about his concepts. She's very pro marriage, so it looks good. We both talked to her about what had happened, and her approach for the first session was not to ask about the A, but to get to know us better, asking us about our family backgrounds and then relating that to why we may feel the need for a particular emotional need.

For example, she deduced from my wife's childhood where her parents never questioned what she did and where her parents were always encouraging her in everything to say that my W gets large deposits in her LB when she is verbally encouraged (which she agrees). And for me, because my dad was not the type to verbalize his feelings, that maybe I have greater trouble meeting my W's need for encouragement cause I don't verbalize it.

Anyway, she believes that some closure is needed where eventually (soon) WS and OW need to meet and talk to tell each other that from that day on, there would be NC. She advocates NC, but unlke Harley who advises it via an NC letter once and for all, she believes that they will need time to 'prepare' themselves for it, but that eventually NC must be there for the marriage to move forward.

We will be meeting with her for a few more sessions individually. She is pretty surprised at my confidence and at how rapidly I have recovered and I think by how much I am able to verbalize and put my thoughts in perspective. I guess venting here and getting all your feedback has been very important for me to move on.

Anyway, this is the end of day 5, without any LB. In fact, we are getting a bit closer each day, which is a good sign. W has begun to initiate contact (holding hands, hugging) when before it was all on my part.

Hopefully will have more good news to update you guys. G'nite!

Today WS found out that she will be required to stay at the company until the 15th of February, so no early trip back for her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Good and bad... Good in that we spend more time together, and the OW is going for company trip from the 10th onwards... bad in that she will still have contact with the OW for another 10 days. Oh well, you can't win 'em all, I guess.

Today she went around handing over customers to her colleague who's taking over her sales territory. She wasn't in a good mood the whole day and later as we talked she revealed that it was because having to hand over the job really made it sink home that she was leaving her company for real. Her other colleagues thinks she is going back to her folks' place to solve some personal problems, and kept asking her to "settle it quick and come back to work". They have said she is like an 'anchor' in the company and will be sorely missed. So she was kinda upset, at first saying that she didn't like having to 'report' to me when I asked her about her day, where she had been, who she had met.

I didn't respond in anger, but said that I still needed to ask her about who she was with, and its not like I was demanding answers from her like before. I was asking nicely and pleasantly, wasn't I? This defused her somewhat, and she replied "I guess" It was later when we talked more that she mentioned she was upset at having to leave the company, and I reassured her that she was really leaving for a better position, and that she may have colleagues just as wonderful in the next company. I said she had made the right choice in telling her manager she wanted to work on the marriage and to leave.

We had dinner and her mood was OK again after that. I think I'm really getting the hang of NOT responding with sarcasm or to try and rub things in. Like a month ago I would probably have told her "YOU made the wrong career move when you chose to snog that lesbian, so you only have yourself to blame.." I guess there is hope for ME after all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dev,

Just remember that this is going to take a LONG time. I'm about two months ahead of you, and my WW just contacted OM again last Friday. She still is confused and won't commit to the M. Be patient. This will not come easy. No matter how long you think it will take, it will take longer. At first I thought we'd be okay by Christmas, then I thought by Valentine's Day. Now I'm thinking it will be more like Memorial Day. Who knows? Just keep focusing on the small positive steps. As long as you keep moving slowly, no matter what the speed, you are going in the right direction and will eventually get there. PATIENCE!

YOU are making progress! YOU now understand that being in control of YOU can make an impact on how your W feels. I see some real growth here! Not to mention an uplifted spirit in your posts.

Like Jim said, this is a long, tedious process. If you feel you are slipping in your ability to stay positive, go do some heavy lifting or other physically demanding activity. Doing this will relieve huge amounts of stress.

Otherwise, cudos for "getting it"!
SD

Thanks Jim, I read your thread earlier and I'm sorry to hear that she has broken NC again.

For me, I know this will take a long time and I guess I'm prepared to work on it no matter how long it takes. She mentioned that she was frustrated because she don't know what she wants, which is a good improvement over last week when she said she wanted a divorce "for sure". So, the plan A is realy working. Though today she is unsure about the counselling again, she kept asking me what I thought about it. She said it was one of those things you never feel like going for, but you know you have to.

I have not mentioned to her about the M or the R yet, and I won't mention or ask her what her intentions are regarding that. I will continue doing what I'm doing and should she one day come to me and say that she stll wants to be single to "enjoy her life" then I will let her go, I guess. But until that day comes, I will keep up the plan A.

Thanks SD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I guess you CAN teach an old dog new tricks after all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

After I started NOT to respond with anger to her words and comments a couple of times and saw positive signs, I learned that being angry, pushy etc. only made her distance herself from me even more. Worse, it actually pushed her to do things I didn't like just to show me that she couldn't be pushed around.

I realize she doesn't have a place like this to vent, so most of the time she vents on me...lol... then I come here and vent here instead of returning it back to her (with interest).

Today she had lunch with the OW and some other colleagues again. At this point she says I'm "unreasonable" to have to have her raise more suspicions among her colleagues if she were to NOT meet up wiht the OW. I've tried reasoning with her, that if she continues seeing OW, even if in a group, she will never get through withdrawal and that she will find it hard to completely enforce NC even after she leaves the company. She just maintaines that she is still at the company, and it would be very weird if she keeps avoiding the OW, and tries to reassure me that they will absolutely NOT see each other (or have any reason to) once she leaves her company on the 15th of this month.

My take on it is this: If they still see each other, still talk socially in a group (assuming she is telling the truth and has not been in contact outside of work) then they will still be 'friends' even after she leaves the company. Will these 'friends' not meet for lunch next time or anything like that?

I feel like telling her, if you continue to see her and not enforce NC, I will tell ALL your current and future colleagues about your A with OW. But that is a major LB, and that is a threat and an ultimatum, not a boundary.

What do you guys think about this? Any advice?

Apart from that, we have not been talking about the M and R, apart from her still saying that she doesn't know what she wants. But I'm still not comfortable with her meeting OW for lunch, and don't completely trust her when she says she has not been contacting her outside of work (because of all the provious lies more than anything else).

You should have exposed to all her coworkers as well when you exposed it to her boss. You are correct, you shouldn't threaten or give you WW an ultimatum. You need to set boundaries and enforce them instead. My take? I would suck it up until she leaves the company. If she continues to meet up with her coworkers and OW, then explain to them why she had to leave the company. She'll get pissed off, but them you can say, "Well, you can avoid her now because you won't have to worry about arousing anyone's suspicions anymore." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> She'll get over it after a few weeks.

Hi Jim,

Thanks, and you've just said what I was thinking. I will continue to mention to her that its not a good idea to be meeting with the OW, even if its in a group setting, and to remind her of her resolve to have NC. Then I will leave it at that and see if things change after she leaves the company.

Update:
I think we are making progress. Last night she was out with her friend and said she would be back at 8pm for dinner. When she hadn't called by 8.15pm I called her and she said she was just walking to the car and that she got caught up doing somehting. I got a bit angry and said she should not be so inconsiderate and to at least call and she said..."OK, whatever" and hung up.

Now, before with my bad temper and all, I would get irritated and raise my voice and nag her when she comes home etc, but when she came back yesterday, expecting that same treatment, all she saw was me slightly irritated but not saying anything. At one point I just said "This has nothing to do with the M, but just common courtesy. You could have at least called earlier if you were going to be late". And to my surprise she said, "I know, I'm sorry". I think we were both a bit surprised at each other last night.

Anyway, I went to bed early and after she finished some work she came to bed. To my surprise, she kissed me good night! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> This was the first in a long time. Its usually me that shows affection to her (post-A) and she always accepts but never initiated. Then this morning when I was half awake she took my hand and lay her cheek against it. I almost cried cause its been so long since I've gotten any spontaneous affection from the W.

Progress? ****** yes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's sad, but these are the "crumbs" us BSs sustain ourselves on until we get to "real" recovery.

Yup, but crumbs are better than getting kicks to the balls all the time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My balls are craving for any kind of attention right now.

LOL!!!!

Self service mate. They say if you sit on your hands....

devastated


The problem with this approach is that you are coming across as parental and trying to 'educate' her as to what is right and wrong. That falls under the LB of Disrespectful Judgements:


A better approach would be to make it about you -- your hurt and use "I" statements.

I feel hurt/insecure/angry when you contact OW. I don't like feeling that way. I start wondering whether or not you're going to continue to rationalize contact with the OW after you leave your job.

Or, if she says something really silly, check out Orchid's stuff on reverse babble. That stuff is great for dealing with WS's statements without launching into great parental (corrective) lectures.

The more you try to educate her and tell her how she's supposed to behave -- the more you're going to come across like her father. And, women don't like to sleep with their fathers!

Try and make your messages about you and your marriage. Don't make them personal attacks on her character ("you're inconsiderate") or sound like you WANT to be her father instead of her partner/lover/husband.

You do need to continue to tell her each tmie she hurts you. That is very important -- so don't stop communicating honestly. Just change your approach a little so that you aren't commiitting DJ's.


Mys

Thanks myschae, that was very helpful. WIll definitely keep that in mind next time I 'talk' with the WS. However, I don't want to overuse the "I'm realy hurt everytime you..." line... I always get the impression it makes me sound like a sensitive wimp who goes crying everytime something doesn't go my way, thus making me more unattractive to the WS. What are your thoughts on this?

As an update, we're still doing well. No big fights, the affection level is ok, she responds and initiates sometimes, but at some point I'm wondering -what if this is all a show on her part to get me to lower my guard, think everything is on the mend while she is resuming contact with the OW behind my back. I mean, its unlikely but certainly not impossible, though I have not seen signs of anything of the sort. You get to the point where you don't know if you're being paranoid or maybe this is a knee-jerk reaction to all the previous lies. Is it characteristic of the WS to show affection and pretend like she's 'getting back into the M' while she's resuming the A behind your back?

Well, eventually the rollercoaster had to come down after being 'on a high' for a week plus.

She went to the gym today and when I called her I got a 'party call waiting on other end' message on my phone. After a while, she picked up and denied she was on the phone.

I asked her when she got home again a few times about who she was talking to, and she just continued denying that she was on the phone. She was saying that the last few days she was feeling down cause she still felt like as though she wanted to remain single, even though things were going well for the last few days. I said that it was because she was still in contact with the OW, and have not gone though withdrawal properly yet. She said "why does everything I say have to be associated with the OW?". I said because it was a fact that she was still in contact with her at work and that her attitude was that they could still be friends. She had not made any effort at all to avoid having lunch with OW, always saying they were in a group etc. She kept quiet and didn't deny it.

I later told her that I couldn't control or make decisions for her. That I could only make decisions for myself. I just said I would not want to be in a 3-way marriage. Then we watched a show.

After the show was over, she suddenly was in tears. I asked her what was wrong and she said that she was frustrated cause she couldn't decide what she wanted even though I was being so nice to her. I told her it would get easier once she had NC. I then asked her again about who she was talking to. She paused then told me that the OW had called her, and that the OW was apparently telling her that she would not be going to the gym cause she was not feeling well etc. WS had decided to go to another gym center because the OW had mentioned that she was going to another center (their gym has a few sites).

At that point I got a bit angry and asked her why she was still lying to me? Etc... and she said she didn't want me to think that they were still in constant contact etc. I told her that me thinking they were still in contact was not as bad as me still thinking she was a liar and I walked out of the room to cool off.

Then I LBed and told her to call the OW in front of me and to tell her that if I EVER caught them talking again, I would tell every company in the industry about the two of them. She picked up the phone, and called OW and told her. After that I took the phone from her and spoke to the OW. I said I better have made myself clear. She said they were not talking and I told her to cut the crap, I know about that afternoon's call and all the other calls. I said that if she thought I was joking then just try me. And I hung up.

After that WS said I was pushing her into a corner. I said, no, SHE was pushing HERSELF into the corner. She knew from the start that she needed to have NC. If she wanted to keep her job and everything intact then all she had to do was to NOT talk to the OW.. what was so difficult about that to understand??? Then she said, ok she will not talk to her. I told her it was her choice and every choice would have a consequence. I also told her again that if she thought I was joking then she could bloody well try me. She replied that she KNOWS i'm not joking. I told her that for all her talk of being sick of living a double life and all, she was still doing it.. deleting call logs after she calls the OW and SMSes etc.. I was sick of trying to 'catch' her all the time.

Sheesh... I'm still angry. Not so much about the contact, but the lack of honesty. I guess my main EN is radical honesty and I haven't gotten that from her. I know I LBed big time, but I also think I needed to tell that biach OW that I was bloody serious, in case she thought I was lying low after the last exposure. How long more do I have to play this police and thief game with my WS??

Added:
To her credit, WS said the OW said she would be going to gym A on Friday, thats why she went to gym B. But when I asked her why she didn't mention that, she said she didn't think she needed to tell me that

Dev,

It is always a delicate balance between enforcing your boundaries and avoiding LBs. Don't beat yourself up over this, but I think you went a little too far yesterday. The number one rule of exposure is that it shouldn't be used as a threat. It only makes you look bad. Your LBing set back your recovery somewhat. I know NC is more important to you, but at the same time, the more you LB, the more you push your WW away.

Here is what I would do. Tell your WW that you are sorry about your angry outburst last night. Tell her that you have been working on making yourself a better husband, but that you realize you have a way to go to be the type of husband that is worthy of your love. However, let her know that every time she contacts OW it is like a knife into your heart, it hurts like ******, and you are only doing these things to protect yourself from getting hurt anymore. Say it calmly and sincerely and leave it at that.

Hi Jim,

Yeah, I knew I was LBing when I did it yesterday. WS *had* avoided the same gym as the one OW went to, which is a good sign, but at the very least, my latest threat (to the OW) may serve some deterrent value the next time she thinks of calling my WS, or vice versa for my WS calling her.

Hopefully she'll think its not worth the trouble of the whole damned industry knowing her for the lesbian that she is and cut off contact with my WS and she knows that I WILL expose now and I'm not just saying it. Maybe, and maybe pigs can fly too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I told the W I was sorry I got angry, and that we've still got a long way to go, but I'm trying. I said that everytime she lies, it hurts me even more than when she talks to the OW. She said she was sorry and I think we're back to the state before this whole thing started.

I'll be real glad when she changes jobs finally. But the damnest thing is, OW is also friendly towards some of WS's future colleagues. Sigh...

Today WS went into the office, had a farewell lunch with some of her colleages (including OW). I asked her after dinner if the OW had mentioned anythng about the phone call the other day, and she smiled and replied that the OW had mentioned it. I asked what she had mentioned and WS said that basically the OW said she "couldn't be bothered anymore" and put the phone down after the first few exchanges with me. I asked her why she was still talking to the OW and she said this was just casual conversation. I asked her which part of NO CONTACT did she not understand?

She then got defensive and said that I was being unreasonable again. Said that I was being unfair to threaten her the other day with exposure at her new company and that her talking to OW had nothing to do with the new company. WTF?!? This is WS-speak again from deep in the fog!!

She then got angry with me saying that there was no reason or connection btw her new job and her talking to OW. I said sure there is. I said that she was not seeing the big picture. Bottom line was, she still wanted to remain friends with OW, not willing to give up contact with her and to maintain a friendly relationship. Weighed against that was her career, her marriage and her family life. How could she not see the choice or acknowledge that she was soooo addicted that she can compare her marriage and new career (seeing as how it was so important to her) against JUST NOT TALKING TO THAT DAMNED LESBIAN?? I said if she had NC with OW then she would not have to worry about me doing anything in the first place! But here she was, trying to justify and getting angry with me because I'm asking her to have NC with OW for the sake of our marriage and her career. My "conditions" have not changed since day 1, that she must have NC. She had told me many times she understands and knows she must have NC and that is what I require of her, and yet here she was, getting angry cause I'm telling her to have NC. Sheesh. WS's have short memories, even to the things that come out of their own mouth!

I said that I already admitted I was wrong to threaten her with exposure the other day, and reaffirmed that I would not be involved in 3-party marriage. She MUST have NC else there will be consequences, and not necessarrily exposure.. it could be anything. (I know, LB again, but I'm just re-stating my stand on this).

She asked me if she really had NC and did decide later on not to continue this marriage, would I still expose her or ruin her career? I said that would depend of whether she really had NC. I said that I know if are still in contact even though I cannot monitor her 100% of the time because by that same token, she will not be able to avoid detection 100% of the time. That was a fact. I said that I could find out if I really wanted to. And lately, I did not want to know, cause I'm tired. But I could find out if I really wanted to and I would not threaten her anymore. I said she knows I would do whatever it takes to save my marriage.

We ended with her saying "Fine. I know.. I will have NC with her". This is the n-th time she's saying that, so somehow I don't believe her. Sheesh... if only I could erase the OW, now, wouldn't that solve all my problems? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Why are you wasting breath making threats and trying to manipulate and control rather than actually exposing?