Since the thread was locked juuuust as my fingers were itching to reply I'm starting my own.


I have a couple of hang ups...the primary one being that everyone has accepted without clear definition the "destruction" component.

What does that mean ?

Destructive to....me personally? The marriage? The relationship? The potential for recovery? What?

Who decides and by what measurement do they judge?

Whether it makes them angry...uncomfortable...results in divorce?

Which leads directly to...if it DOES lead to divorce...is that necessarily a bad thing? If knowing the truth..the facts...has the power to remove recovery from the table...is that necessarily a bad thing? Can destruction be good if it results in the dissolution of a marriage that would necessarily be built on deceit...because the truth would at any time have the power to end it?

Are we for recovery at all costs? Doesn't that diminish the meaning of the word?

And...

What about the respect issue that 10swords outlined. I would have had the same reaction. Refusal to TELL me what you have done would result in immediate refusal on my part to continue to recover because I would have felt disrespected both in the action having taken place...then again at being told I didn't get to know about it.

In my opinion...if it involves my spouse...it involves me. Sex of any sort from any point after my marriage to my spouse is my business down to the minute details because we are sexually intimate. The person who does NOT belong in that equation is the OP...but I guess it's too late to tell THEM to mind their own business and not be destructive.

More of my opinion...

I think that all of the destruction that CAN occur...is already in the past tense at that point...at least in regard to potential.

I learned something interesting about C4 explosives from my H yesterday. It takes something really specific to make it explode. You can dump gasoline on it and light it on fire...nothing. You can shoot at it...nothing. You put the correct amount of pressure and energy on it... boom .

I think there are all sorts of piles of potential explosives comparable to this lying around in the post affair landscape. The only way to tell if they are indeed explosives is to TRY to blow them up. They either will or they won't. If they do you deal with it [you sort of have to]...if not that's one less potential landmine lying around.

What is really...naive I think...is to just try to leave them there and hope nothing comes of it.

noodle --

I agree with your assessment on destruction.

From the betrayed spouse's perspective, I can see the question and answer issue leading to divorce in one of two ways:

• 
  1. The betrayed spouse learns something in the questioning that causes them to no longer desire to recover the marriage.
  2. The betrayes spouse decides to dissolve the marriage because the wayward spouse refuses to answer the questions.

I'm guessing there is only one real reason the wayward spouse would choose to end the marriage due to the questioning process:

• 
  1. They feel the questioning is so excessive and intrusive that they no longer desire to recover the marriage much less answer the questions being asked by the betrayed spouse.

I'm guessing at the wayward spouse's position for completeness, but I believe it to be the weaker position. "I don't want to be married to you any more because the effort to help you heal and come to grips with the destruction I introduced to our marriage is just too much work for me."

I certainly do allow that some betrayed spouses may push their questioning methods and tactics into an abusive situation -- at that point, the issue is no longer about the question and answers but about the abusive behavior -- a justified reason for ending the marriage.

Thanks for continuing this line of discussion.

Personally, for me, Noodle, I agree with you. But there are others... some on this board, that have trouble coping with the details and would have done better not knowing (much better had the A never taken place!!!!!). I have been one to want the deatils... but I know some others that would benefit from not knowing.
I can see where it should be left to the BS to decide what is best for them. But I can also see that just because someone has a differnt opinion about this that their intentions are not bad.
But frankly, I agree with Dr. H take on this.

"This forum is open to not only those who have questions, but also to those with comments or suggestions. We recommend that all participants of the discussion forum be familiar with Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts."

This quote is from the lead page to the forum. Dr. H's own words open these pages up to comment and suggestions. Thanks for continuing the discussion here. I will get out of this discussion though since I have said all I have needed to say and don't want your thread to become another battle ground.

Quote:
I can see where it should be left to the BS to decide what is best for them.

I would have to expand on this and say I think it needs to be left to the BS what they will chose to do...rather than what is best for them.

I may choose to ask something knowing full well it may be a bad choice that I will regret...the question really comes down to..who decides where the limits placed apon ME are.

I say they are determined by me. I know that another person has just as much ability to refuse my request as I have to request it..or to lie..or to suggest it may be a bad idea..that really is mixing issues though.

Feel free to stay in the conversation...I'm not really looking at the dissenter issue...I'm looking at the core issue.

"I'm guessing there is only one real reason the wayward spouse would choose to end the marriage due to the questioning process:

1. They feel the questioning is so excessive and intrusive that they no longer desire to recover the marriage much less answer the questions being asked by the betrayed spouse.

I'm guessing at the wayward spouse's position for completeness, but I believe it to be the weaker position. "I don't want to be married to you any more because the effort to help you heal and come to grips with the destruction I introduced to our marriage is just too much work for me."

I certainly do allow that some betrayed spouses may push their questioning methods and tactics into an abusive situation -- at that point, the issue is no longer about the question and answers but about the abusive behavior -- a justified reason for ending the marriage."

May a FWW comment on the above??

I had a six week EA with a co-worker..there was no sexual contact, although it would have gotten there eventually had the affair lasted another month or two. The affair ended when my mom died and I turned to my husband, not the OM, for support.

The affair was six months ago, and I have answered all my H's questions about it, but he is not satisfied with my answers. I have come to the conclusion that he will not be satisfied with any answer other than YES, I had sex with him; YES, he was in our house; YES, I went to hotels with him; YES, we did it everywhere and in every conceivable position. This is what he wants to hear from me...he will never be satisfied with the truth, that we didn't have sex and that the OM was never in our home.

My H has so browbeat me that I have considered lying to him and confessing to things that I didn't do just to get him to leave me alone. But that would require more lies to sustain the original lie, as H would want to put together an infidelity timeline and I would have to produce evidence to back-up my claim.

So now, six months post d-day, I very sadly sit and contemplate divorce. There is nothing I can say that will satisfy my husband; my situation is bleak and I feel no hope for our future together.

Des

Noodle,

Right on!

QUOTE:
"Which leads directly to...if it DOES lead to divorce...is that necessarily a bad thing? If knowing the truth..the facts...has the power to remove recovery from the table...is that necessarily a bad thing? Can destruction be good if it results in the dissolution of a marriage that would necessarily be built on deceit...because the truth would at any time have the power to end it?

Are we for recovery at all costs? Doesn't that diminish the meaning of the word?"



This is the whole point, IMO. Is a M recovered if the lies continue? If a couple lie to each other to "protect them", who are they protecting?

I would say the protection is only for the one lying. It gives the one avoiding an issue an excuse to continue to avoid the consequences of their actions. Since the truth often (more often than not) finds a way to come out, any sense of recovery is obliterated by the lie when it comes to light later.

Can avoiding the truth hold a M together? Maybe at first it has that power, but is it really a partnership of equals if one person is withholding information that the other might consider a nullification of that partnership?

IMO, a marriage held together because one person has refused telling the truth is a lie in itself, whether that truth comes out later or not. The wall, or at least the foundation of a wall is already in place at that point and will eventually cause division between the partners.

Suppose you don't tell your S that you were attracted to the OP because of a certain attribute (the OP is bigger/smaller, taller/shorter, plumper/skinnier). You don't tell your S since you feel it would hurt their feelings. You are basically removing the option of having a desire (not really EN) fulfilled by your S. You have not given the information they require to live up to what you would like from them. Along comes a new person at work who is smart, healthy, outgoing, and exactly what you have always dreamed of. Attraction is instant and strong.

How do you avoid the temptation?

Do you now run to your S and say..."Oh, BTW, we have this new girl/guy at work that is everything I always wished you were, but I'm not going to get involved, because I don't want to go through the pain again of having an A" Do you try to tell them there is an attraction without telling them why?

Why tell them anything at all, since it would only open old wounds?

Do you get tough on yourself and "make" yourself stop being attracted and just not say anything to your S?

So now you are moody, because you are fighting something alone. It is hidden from your spouse; the monster is invisible to all but its intended victim (you). You quit your job (again) because of "personal reasons" and start over (again) and your S is certain you have lost your marbles. Your continued lies take their toll on you and your R. You aren't happy because you can't share your struggles. Your S isn't happy because you are so unhappy (and moody) and your S begins to wonder what is going on. You withdraw from each other more and more till the day your S says,"who is it this time?" With that, they begin packing...

Shouldn't the choice to stay or go be determined by your S based on having all the facts? Withholding the truth will NOT build a strong marriage, only keep a weak one together, though maybe only for a time. Is the goal to get back the old, flawed M that was susceptible to an A? Then withhold the truth if it will help. But if the goal is to have a good (GREAT) marriage, tell as much as you know, since if your S can't stay after learning the truth, the M is never going make either of you happy in the long run.

Please note, that to me, it has nothing to do with Dr Harley, Dr Phil, MW-D, Frank G, Dr Laura, Dr Dobson or Oprah. To me, it is simply a logic problem.

Lying destroys openness within a relationship > Lack of openness in a relationship causes unhappiness > I want to be happy in my relationship. If I lie, I will not be happy and neither will my spouse > I will not lie in an attempt to be happy.

All the pundits have an opinion and have been paid well to write about it. They all make valid points, but to me, telling a lie, to recover from other lies is so counterintuitive that it just does not compute. It is just more of what caused the problem in the first place. If lying causes pain, don't lie. ("Doctor! Doctor! It hurts when I do this," and the doctor says "Don't do this!")

The truth isn't what hurts, it is not telling the truth in the first place that caused the hurt. Think "fog speak" here. "How could you disrespect me by spying on me?" The issue is, "How could you disrespect ME and YOURSELF by having an A?

Sorry I got carried away, but I've been reading since this started and had to get it off my chest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mark

you make some very good points. Lying is not the way to go.

What has been discussed here is the H & W both agreeing to a certain way of handling things. It only became an issue of lie vs. truth because of spin. Obviously if a BS was not happy with this approach.. it would not work. But what I saw on the show was a BS listening to the doctor when he said.. nothing good can come from knowing these details. He told the WW that there were things that they were not to discuss since it would cause more pain.... and yes, sometimes information can be painful... it isn't what caused the pain but it CAN contribute to it.
I have been on suicide calls and there are times when we "clean things up" a bit before the family comes in. While they know the horror what happened... perhaps they don't need to be haunted by seeing the brains splattered on the walls. I think that is the idea behind some of the other approaches discussed here.
But for my own personal taste, I agree with Dr. H's take on things.

Great post, Mark. I am all with you. In order for me to recover, I must have ALL the facts to make an informed decision about my life. It was not the intimate details of my H's affair that caused me to want to end the marriage, but the withholding of those details. Without those details, I did not feel I had a complete enough picture to make the determination whether I wanted to stay in the marriage or not. And no one but me is qualified to make that choice. I had as much resentment about the statement "I didn't want to hurt you," [by withholding details] as I did about the affair. Refusing to answer any of my questions would have been a deal breaker.


Agree very much with this. It matters not who said it, but rather, if the solution WORKS. And what doesn't work is a lack of honesty.

Des, can you send your husband here to us? Do you feel you have been completely forthcoming with the facts, giving him a full and accurate picture? Or have you done as my H did initially, and played cat and mouse with facts, only answering DIRECT questions as if you were a hostile, defense witness?

me too

Pep

Where did this conversation begin?

On what thread, please?

~ Marsh

In this case, your husband's questioning is borderline emotional abuse. I'm not advocating you leave you marriage, but I can see where such treatment will eventually lead -- divorce court.

This is the case I tried to account for, but in my position, I'm limited in my ability to view things from my wife's point of view.

Your husband obviously is still suffering some of the trauma of the affair. I, myself, asked my wife several questions over and over because I could not process the answers she gave me. Either I was too emotionally wound up to hear her or her answers didn't pass my filters.

Much of the "attraction" she felt for her OM was their outgoing nature (I'm naturally introverted) and their willingness to share their opinion on EVERYTHING, while I prefer to "go with the flow" and accept what comes my way.

I still have problems processing the fact that this is the reason my wife says she was attracted to these men who would betray their families in an affair. It hurts my head to think she saw something of value in them.

So I ask and re-ask and re-re-ask the question because I can't process the answer.

Are you and your husband in counseling? I believe this would certainly be a case where some third party mediation would apply and help.

I think actually many BS's probably can't handle knowing all the details however as I said adnauseum on the "other thread" it is STILL their decision and right to ask those questions and have them answered. It may well not be helpful but it is still the BS's right to know.

At some point it might be wise to introduce outside help.
I can very well imagine a BS getting stuck in a sort of loop, asking questions over and over, trying to get back the control he/she feels to have lost over their marriage life.
The trick is not in "geting all the details". It is in reaching a point where we can accept what has happened (not agree with it, but accept it) so we can move on. I needed details to do that, not excessively, but I needed them.

I agree very much.

I agree also..however the real issue is not what is wise..or even what one person might consider appropriate in regard to questions..whether content or in terms of how many times it has been asked etc.

The real issue for me is..who decides?

If any person..Dr Phil or otherwise had told me I wasn't allowed to ask and didn't need to know..I can just about guarantee I'd tell him to shove it.

That reaction would be squared if my FWS had attempted to decide for me.

I think it's a not so subtle attempt to move the ball along...get the recovery going beyond the point where the BS got "stuck" on the details rather than allowing them to process and decide..for themselves..what they are going to do with the intel they have been confronted with the reality of.

It results in finding yourself IN recovery without having actually made the personal decision to recover.

This doesn't work with WSs...prelude to false recovery imo..and I wouldn't advocate it for BSs either.

I agree 100% Noodle.

As I posted on the "other thread"


and also

and Hope and Pray posted this...

"Des, can you send your husband here to us? Do you feel you have been completely forthcoming with the facts, giving him a full and accurate picture? Or have you done as my H did initially, and played cat and mouse with facts, only answering DIRECT questions as if you were a hostile, defense witness?"

ML, yes, I feel I have given him full disclosure. It did take me a while, and I did have to read "Joeseph's Letter" to finally get it. Before that, I didn't think he needed to know every inconsequential (in my eyes) detail. That said, I know I have now become a hostile witness. It's the sarcasm I find difficult to take. He does not subscribe to the Harley method of recovery. My needs have gone unmet for the most part since D-day. There have been glimmers of hope, moments of profoundly moving tenderness, but they are few and far between. He has been to MB, and he has read the books I have purchased for us, but I think, for him, my betrayal was too great. Too bad for me.

Des

"Are you and your husband in counseling? I believe this would certainly be a case where some third party mediation would apply and help."

Artor, yes we are in counseling, but she has pretty much said that because of my A, my H can do no wrong right now. So, for now, I am taking what he dishes out. But I don't know how much longer I can, as I am becoming terribly depressed.

Sometimes it is so hard coming here to MB and reading about all the amazing BS's who are trying so hard to save their marriages...

But, still, it gives me hope that it can be done.

Des

I bet'cha this is your interpretation of what the counselor said and not a literal translation

can you call her and ask for clarification?

I think what the counselor probably means is >>> is there is a pouring out of rage & grief from your BH ... and it's ugly & painful

but this is not the same as "he can do no wrong"

Pep