M and I have been talking off and on about long-term future. What it would look like, etc. About a week before Christmas, we realized we were talking about two different things. He was talking about living together without the benefit of marriage, I was talking about marri... Well, I don't like to say the word.

We both went back and digested it. I decided there may be some positives to a trial run. Granted most Live-in arrangements end in something other than marriage. But, then, half of marriages end in divorce, and who knows how many of those that don’t end in divorce are happy marriages. Based on this, I told M on Sunday that I was perhaps more open to the possibility but there were still issues with the children.

We further discussed the whole thing. What it would look like, because I didn’t want a house guest. All that stuff. By the end of the discussion I had a pit in my stomach. And I felt that way for a while. I’m not sure if it was something he said, or what.

Anyway, I analyzed my feelings and figured a lot of it had to do with my motivation for living together instead of marriage. Basically, living together means I could run away if it turns out M is unwilling to stop doing LBs which is the problem I had with my ex. Right now, M does not LB, but you know how marriage can change everything.

The problem comes that I don’t want to be in that situation of having an easy out. I don’t want to have or be a “test run.” I don’t want to play house. I also know if we did live together, I wouldn’t feel secure enough to really engage. I wouldn’t let him contribute to any of the household expenses except food and the TV. I wouldn’t expect or ask him to do chores. I wouldn’t do anything that would create a void if he up and left. Now, if I behaved like that, it would be a disaster.

Anyway, I spelled this all out for him in an email, and sent it as a jumping off point for discussion, but forgot to mention that the email was only for discussion. When I called M last night to discuss it, I got three sentences total in during the phone call. He read the email. He was processing it. Okay, good night. That was it.

So, now I’m waiting. I don’t know what part of it he was upset by. It could be the living together is a dealbreaker. Or it could be he didn’t like my insecurities or the fact that I thought he may not be willing to change some behaviors. I don’t know. But, I’m really wondering if it wouldn’t have simply been better to say “I’ve been feeling very anxious ever since I said I was more open to living together before marriage. I find I can’t do that. I’m sorry if that’s a problem.” And just left it at that.

We’ve been dating 14 months, I didn’t think I needed to censure my thoughts to that extent.

I am having trouble understanding what you said in the e-mail. Did you say that you cannot live together without marriage, or did you talk about how it would be a disaster if you did not let him participate in your household? Can you perhaps post the e-mail you sent?

AGG

Ugh. AGG, I was trying to get away without posting the email. I'm afraid you all will find all kinds of things I did wrong, and I'll feel like shooting myself for not posting it BEFORE sending it.

The Email I sent:


Dear M,

This is one of those letters I think I should write rather than I want to write.

I’ve been feeling sad since Sunday night, and I think I know why. I’m not as comfortable with the idea of living together as I thought. In fact, the very idea is upsetting to me. Before I enumerate the reasons why I’m uncomfortable, let me first say, that they are all based on my own motivations for living together instead of marriage, and I realize in my brain, your motivations may be quite different, but my gut still is queasy. I also realize you have not asked me to live with you, and that I’m being presumptuous and precipitous. On the other hand, I don’t think you’re the type who wants to be surprised by answers to important questions.

So, why is my gut queasy? Well, the reason why I would want to live together instead of get married is because marriage is the hardest thing in the world. It involves risk and hurt and pain and change, and maybe, if you’re lucky, you get great joy and happiness. One of my ideas for marriage is one gives up one’s own way to have “our way.” Not, “this is the way I do it” rather “this is the way we do it.” If the two people don’t, they often butt heads or drift into each living his or her own life. The risk though is that only one person is willing to give up having his or her own way. Then, automatically the other person gets his or her own way. And yes, this is directly from my experience, but just because it is from my personal experience doesn’t make less valid.

However, if one is only living together, one can keep one’s own ways much more, or if someone doesn’t want to create and “our way,” it’s very easy to dissolve the relationship provided there’s no joint property. The easy to dissolve holds true in any situation where there is discomfort and difficulty that requires one or both people to change their behavior—to make adjustments that they normally wouldn’t. It’s what’s attractive about living together. I can run away quickly without breaking a sacred vow if any deal-breakers pop up that you are unwilling to change. For me, that is why I would consider living together when all evidence suggests living together leads to heartache. (Most people who live together don’t get married, if they do get married their chances of divorce are even higher than the general population. It sends a message to my children that you can shack up with men you date. It could cause issues with their friends in our conservative area, especially at a new school where no one knows me, or my family.)

I’m not suggesting you would be intractable or a pain in the [censored]. I don’t think you would. However, if there is no true commitment, if it is just a trial run, you may be a lot more likely to say “Screw this. I’m not changing a thing, and I’m outta here.”

I don’t think I’d handle living together well given my own mindset about it. I think I’d be defensive, insecure and a bundle of nerves. In addition, I’d be scared to death to really integrate you into my life. For example, I don’t think I’d let you pay toward the mortgage or even the utilities (except TV) because if you left I’d a big financial restructuring to undertake. Same goes for household chores. I’m also pretty sure the same would go for my emotional availability. Whether I wanted to or not, I’d probably be reserved and afraid to become more attached to you. I’ve already felt that wall come up.

I’m sorry I can’t live with you. I’m uncertain how you will take this, and if your feelings are hurt, I’m very sorry. You know how I feel about you, and I would do much to make you happy, but not that. (Not that you’ve asked me to, and we may have never gotten to that point anyway.)

Nevermind.Didn't see your e-mail to M( I'm going to read it).

Oh boy, this does require a lot of processing, I can see why he ran off to his cave.

One thing that jumps out at me is that you appear to be both anti-marriage and anti-living-together.

Let me ask you, do you know what you want?

AGG

I get that part, but not - mortgage/utilities/chores if living not married vs. (living) married...
GG?

I don't know, GG, the letter seemed fine to me. The only thing that really bothered me was the bit where you said "...and maybe, if you’re lucky, you get great joy and happiness." That seems unduly pessimistic. The rewards of marriage may not be guaranteed, but they are still the reason for going through all the "risk and hurt and pain and change" in the first place.

Still, what comes through is the idea that you need a boundary which can not (and should not) be breached without a mutual understanding that you are both totally committed. That's healthy. You were just working through where you needed your boundary to be, and your conclusions are hardly unreasonable, even if they differ somewhat from what someone else's might be.

If M needs processing time, fine. But I don't think what you sent was inappropriate.

I'm with B2M, I don't think that "living together" ever means "living as a guest who only pays for the TV". Curious, why did you pick the TV as the one expense he would share?

And I am still curious as to what it is that you would like in the future with him; as of now it seems you want neither marriage nor living together. Like Gnome said, it sounds very pessimistic; if I got this note, I might reach the conclusion that you are breaking up with me.

AGG

Without other sentences around, this one looks like 'taken out of context')... i.e. I read that part as... it seems to me that GG wanted to tell him (too) many different things in this letter...and one of them is that she thinks he's not 'a fighter'... and that she wants him to be... otherwise she cannot be happy (living together... even if married...)
GG? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

GG,

The more I ponder this, the more I think that you need to do some sorting out in your own head. You really do seem confused, which is why I think you have that pit in your stomach. It's not an M issue, it's a GG issue. Again, what do you want?

I see your post as full of contradictions, which is fine, because you are trying to figure things out. But I suspect it is giving M a headache.

Look at what I see:


Why not?


OK, but:


Then why say this:


Isn't that making him a house guest?


OK, so you don't want to live together, but you don't want marriage either? What do you want?


You don't. My guess is he got totally [censored] by your e-mail and has no idea what you want or expect.

AGG

Hey there GG. You're brave to post your email to M.

I don't see a problem with the email itself, but more with the uncertainty you've expressed in it.

There's nothing wrong with uncertainty & nothing wrong with sharing that with M. Perhaps making this more of a give & take conversation with M would be a clearer approach for both of you.

I find it interesting that AGG could have felt you were breaking up with him had he gotten that email.

Was it too much information? No, but it wasn't presented in a way that appears to leave much room for discussion

Greengables,

I think the other posters are making a lot of sense. I'll add my few cents, for what it's worth, but I may just be repeating their points in another way.

It seems that you are very very very afraid of seeing him turn into your XH. Or if not something quite that bad, just the general idea of him taking advantage of you, and of yourself allowing it to happen.

Sor, for that reason, living together is sort of attractive, because it you will have an easier escape from the thing you're afraid of. On the other hand, you fear that living together will in and of itself encourage the thing your afraid of -- in part because you foresee yourself expecting less of him if he hasn't married you.

Conventional wisdom says that people (especially men) don't try as hard when they co-habit as they do when they're married. I personally don't find that to be a universal truth. Rather, I think it's somewhat common for the very young co-habiters to be immature and not treat it as an adult relationship, but then, years later when they are more mature, they get married and indeed behave appropriately. In those cases, I think the real driver is not living together vs. married, but rather maturity. Other men are pigs, whether they marry or not, at all ages.

This is certainly not to talk you into doing anything you're not ready for, or that doesn't feel right for you. If the whole living together thing makes you queasy, don't do it.

I'm back. Work life intervened.

Curious proba bly understood it the best.

Personally, I'm sure I'd want to marry M if after a few more discussions we have the same approach to marriage. For me, it's a Leap of Faith. A lot of people here remember when their marriages were good, before the A before something or other changed. I don't have that. I think the honeymoon period lasted two weeks. Maybe two months. My experience of marriage has been a cage. However, I've heard tell of wonderful marriages, like Ronald and Nancy Reagan's.

However, part of me saw the allure of living together. But the very thing that enticed me was what ultimately turned me off: An easy out.

If I bring someone fully into my life, by golly, it will work out--I'll make it work out.

The comment about me being afraid Mike is not a fighter isn't quite accurate. I think he work on the marriage. More, I'm concerned that he's naive when it comes to relationships, especially marriages. I'm the longest relationship he's had. So, in spite of the fact that he thinks deeply, and is moderately introspective, I'm not sure he would understand what a marriage really takes. I think the one thing he said once that scared me was, he didn't expect either of us would have to change. He wasn't going to change. Before he had said each of us would adapt and make adjustments, but then when I spoke of changing behaviors, he said he didn't see that.

I wish I had run this by you all. I think I gave way too much information. Probably, a simple: You know, I really don't think I could live with you without the benefit of marriage."


Oh, as to allowing him to pay for the cable, that's easy. He gave me satellite TV as a present. He's paying the first year. I didn't have any reception before, and he likes to watch TV. So, he gave it to me as a present.

Gosh, I hope I didn't hopelessly screw this up.

I wish he'd screw up sometimes.

Although not being able to say "I love you," may constitute a screw up. Actually, that what makes this rather pathetic. Why do either of us feel the need to discuss living together or marriage if he is not in love with me?

PS: The whole house guest thing is part of the reason I feel queasy about the living together. Living together is not a commitment, so therefore, I wouldn't let myself become dependent on him. Therefore, he'd be stuck being a houseguest, which I don't want and I doubt he does either.

And just for the record, because of FOO, I tend to have issues with money in relationships. I don't think I can even explain what the issues are, but I know I look at it differently from most people.

So, how would you answer this?

AGG

I feel the need to because I am in love with him, but if our ideas of a future don't mesh, I will probably take a huge step back.

I don't know why he feels the need to.

Oh, I should probably say that he starts the conversations about 1/2 the time or more.

I meant it differently - I am asking why you feel that he is not in love with you, as your earlier question implies? Any chance that this is the real issue at play here, or at least partially at play - you do not know if he is in love with you and so you don't know where things are going? And I know he took you to France blah blah blah, I am asking about the "in love" part.

AGG

He doesn't say it. I've said it. He said he likes hearing me say it, but all I get is "Yes, I know." or "That's how it should be." Some sort of glib answer.

I'd say this was part of it. However, I still don't think I could live with him. There are all those other issues... Like my children. We live in a very socially conservative area. Only trashy people shack up here.