It would not have been better. You should provide as much information as you can - how else can he make the best decisions for himself? I just hope he gives you as much information, so you can make the best decisions for yourself.

Thanks, AFS. I think I'd forgotten about my responsibility to Radical Honesty.

The double edged sword!
I don't think I could do it either GG. Mostly because of my daughters. After all, their father has already broken all the rules, so I feel like I am even more responsible for their upbringing.
On the other side, while at one time I didn't agree with living with one another, today I see it so different.
How else can we really know someone unless we live with them. Think of the $ and paperwork that would be saved if it didn't work.
But, it all comes down to living with yourself. And if it makes you stumble in any way, it's not worth it.

K.

I understand your point, Karona. I even agree with you. But, don't you see? It's GOT to work. There's no option.

I think what I don't like about "living together" is there is an escape clause, it doesn't have to work.

I do think we could live together during part of the engagement. That makes sense.

Oh, poor GG, come here for a hug {{{{GG}}}}

I'm sure your head is spinning with what you wish you'd said or not said & your stomach is in knots. Maybe you can look at this from a different perspective.

This subject coming up has presented an opportunity to discover more about you & M. You'll know more about how he views marriage & what he feels his responsibilities will be VS those of a couple living together.

You didn't force this issue, M has brought it up & it sounds like it's good timing even if it's a tad uncomfortable.

I too go back & forth between wanting marriage & living together. Just when I think living together, not that I've even got a boyfriend to hug, makes all the sense in the world, I start to feel just the opposite.

I guess if we knew all the answers we wouldn't need to come here & run things by our MB friends.

GG, don't worry about your letter and I like it, sincere, expressing your thinking/views re: very important things… and 14 months is more than enough to go to 'this level'…
It is also good to say what you think about this/anything, it is good he needs time to process it, and it is time you get answers you need from him.
And - it is better sooner than later…

You are right, GG; living together IS an escape clause, and quite less effort is made to make it working, for it's in a human being nature to chose easier ways to deal with problems/conflicts/frustrations… In general.
But you also know by now, GG, that 'piece of paper' (M) for many people is not obstacle to escape/avoid 'hard work'… No guarantee…
"It's GOT to work"… it has to be deep in an individual; a mutual decision or someone's nature/belief itself… otherwise, no 'paper' can close that 'escape door'...

Thank B2M and nams.

M didn't call last night, but he did send an email yesterday afternoon. Unfortunately, I was off-site and didn't get it until today.

HERE'S HIS EMAIL:

I do not have an issue that you are adverse to living together, I am fine
with that....I think I am probably more "annoyed" at some of the
insinuations, I think if you would have just TOLD me you were not
comfortable with it, I would have been fine


HERE'S MY RESPONSE. Please give me feedback.

Dear M,

You’re right. I should have just told you. I was so uptight and anxious, I wasn’t thinking straight. I’m sorry. I won’t make that mistake twice. So, instead of sending this via email, I’m reading it to you!

As I read your response, my reaction was, “He’s thinking once again ‘She doesn’t know me very well. I would never do that.’”

I think I know parts of you well, but to me you, you seem to be a fairly reserved person. I’m often unsure where you stand, and I don’t know how you think relationships should be. This is one reason why I wanted to know something about your past relationships: It would give me a better clue how you view the one you’re in now with me.

Also, I have no experience of someone like you. You are an unfamiliar type to me. I don’t have any clue how you will react to a situation until I’ve actually seen you in it.

So, with my limited understanding, I evaluate the possibilities. I know living together and marriage intensify everything—the good and the bad. How will you react to the bad?

I used to think good relationships were just a matter of putting the right two people together. Do that, let them be themselves, and everything will be fine. I was wrong. If both of the “right” people bring good relationships skills to the table, maybe they don’t even have to think about how to keep the relationship on the right track.

I personally didn’t learn good relationship skills. I grew up with a code of secrecy, and “don’t rock the boat.” Did I mention fear? My relationships skills included: acquiescence, placating, fitting in, doing a runaround, and best yet, the ability to shut my mind off and go some place else when under distress. Wow. Is that ever soul baring? I bet you think I exaggerate. LOL. I’m not.

Over time, I’ve learned to have better boundaries, earlier. I’ve learned to communicate even when it will cause me a great deal of discomfort and the other person doesn’t want to hear what I’m saying. I’ve learned that it doesn’t matter whether or not someone else thinks I’m worthy. I’ve learned that giving in is not always helpful. I’ve learned while I’m responsible for my actions, I’m not entirely responsible for a relationship, nor can I save a relationship. I’m learning how to negotiate better.

I also know that relationships are fluid. The trick is to make sure that whatever ebbs, flows back again. However, that can sometimes take time and effort. One of my perspectives that is different is this: “In Love” is a feeling and is radically different from the “love” that means “demonstrating care.” I’m in love with you because of things you do and say and… well you. I’m not in love with you because I choose to be in love with you. Hopefully I also demonstrate my love and affection caring for you. You know, being nice, doing things that to make you happy, etc.

Oh, yes, and that’s another thing. I believe two people in relationships can “make each other happy.” In other words, in marriage particularly, I would consider myself responsible for part of my husband’s happiness. I certainly know I could make someone miserable. Don’t jump to the conclusion that I’m abdicating personal responsibility for happiness. I’m not. If someone is making one miserable, one needs to take action to stop the misery, not just stay stuck. I just think it’s important to note that partners can make each other happy or dreadfully unhappy. Anyone who says “You can choose to be happy in your marriage” has never been in a bad marriage.

Circling back to that fluidity…. I believe that both parties need to take time to make each other happy or the fluidity will allow the relationship to simply ebb away.

I think another stumbling block I have is the “in love” issue. If fact that may be the real underlying issue. I really shouldn’t be even thinking about the risks or benefits of living together or marriage in this circumstance. For me, it feels incredibly unsafe. Even where we are now feels uncertain and scary to me. Oh, don’t get me wrong. I know you like me a lot, and you are extremely generous and kind. That’s not quite the same thing, though. If you were in love with me, you’d be extremely motivated to make necessary adjustments in order to maintain the relationship. Much more motivated than being in like. In addition, when you aren’t in love with me, there’s always a possibility you could fall in love with someone else. I know you wouldn’t start looking or dating without telling me first. But, someone at work could catch your eye, be bright and entertaining, etc. I don’t worry about it, but that forms part of how I understand our relationship.

One thing I worry about is that perhaps I just am not the right one for you. It’s a nasty trick of life that just because you seem right for me, doesn’t mean I’m right for you. Really, you’d think someone would have done a better job organizing that part.

With love,
Anne with an E

GG, why writing and not talking to him?

ps:



back to ''fighter' or not' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

reading this to him so that I can keep my thoughts straight.

"Even where we are now feels uncertain and scary to me."

What would it take for you to feel secure in this relationship?

If he were in love with me too.

Two things:

One, I think it is really bad that you write a long letter, he replies with a short paragraph, and you reply with a novel. Seems very unbablanced, and IMO, projects an imbalance in the relationship - like it means more to you than to him. I know, I know, you are going to say that he is the noncommunicative type and you are not, but the symbolism is bothersome nonetheless.

Second,


You are right that this key issue needs to be addressed before any talk of marriage or living together comes up. Neither of those fixes problems in the relationship.

AGG

My personal belief is that you cannot be healthily in love with someone who is not in love with you. That kind of imbalance is unhealthy.

AGG

I know, AGG. My "in love" feeling is waning. Slowly, but still.

Sometimes, I think he may be in love with me, but not able to say it. But, I don't know that, so I have to assume he is not in love with me.

GG -

I agree with AGG regarding the unbalance of this relationship.

I, personally, could not be in a 14 month relationship with someone who wasn't in love with me, nevermind thinking of living together or marriage.

Why is this acceptable to you?

Hmm. A few reactions...

I can't help wondering how you're planning to read that aloud...

I do not understand what you are trying to say here - perhaps just pointing out how one's feelings cannot be completely controlled?

The whole "love" versus" "in love" distinction could be better articulated (feelings versus choices).

If I were to hear this, my immediate thought would be "What adjustments is she saying I need to make? What is bothering her that she hasn't told me about?"

*sigh* It does seem like someone should have done a better job with that, doesn't it? *sigh*

Wow, I came back to a huge issue. This must be very hard on you GG. Good Luck on this one.
I too would put everything down on paper, and feel that getting each thought out on paper allows the other party time to process and hear the words without emotions. I get that part.

Some relationships grow over time. I find the "fall instantly in love" scenario to be more infatuation.

So, why is this acceptable? Probably because he's been meeting her top EN's, and when these needs haven't been met in a long time (or never), that is a feeling you would not want to easily lose.
Then it becomes an issue of whether the words (ILY) matter if the actions are there. Too many people have heard the words, but the actions aren't there. Are the words necessary? That depends on the person.

GG, I see your struggle with Living together. I think in our world, with children we want to raise as in a church, in a community there is still a feeling that living together is not acceptable. I think I would have a hard time doing it, then again, I'd have a hard time getting remarried. Many people don't even date until the kids are older, just to avoid difficult situations.

The resolution of this matter is between you and M only, and each will gain from the experience.

As I did some errands at lunch I was thinking. I have a new idea. I’m going to call him, apologize for writing. Although I just remembered my main reason for sending this was because he told me he doesn’t want to have serious talks after dinner or before bed. Since right after work doesn’t work well for me, thanks to kids and dinner, I figured an email would be better. He could think about it and it wouldn’t be as stressful. I was wrong again.

Anyway, I’ll call him. Apologize for writing instead of calling. Ask him about the “insinuations.” Apologize for them, if warranted. And leave it at that. Then, later, I think I’ll simply tell him I won’t discuss any intensification of our relationship, i.e. living together, marriage, unless he falls in love with me. I don’t think that can be construed as putting pressure on him to say ILY. If he doesn’t feel it, he doesn’t.

Deserving, why would I accept dating a man who hasn’t said ILY? Probably, because he treats me with more caring than any other man I’ve dated. It’s not his fault if he’s not in love with me. M views our relationship as serious. He hates it if I say “dating” because to him that means casual. If I will continue to be content in a relationship where I don’t know the depth of the other’s feelings, now that’s a question.